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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: Possibility to exceed sv_maxspeed by various techniques |

"Possibility to exceed sv_maxspeed by various techniques"

QIP site wrote:
Bug / Suggestion Possibility to exceed sv_maxspeed by various techniques (e.g. zigzagging and bunnyhopping or wall-hugging) Reported by the Quake Done Quick Team cause all Quake executables
workaround or fixed in
not yet
the solution should not prevent rocketjumping and other regular higher player speeds

So it's been 7-8 years since these words were written.
I added show_speed 1 in my engine long ago (from JoeQuake) and in even in single player Quake with sv_maxspeed 320 you can rather easily reach speeds of 360 by jumping and strafing and with a little more effort hit 380 or 400.
In DarkPlaces, supposed the Nexuiz Ninjaz have figured out some sort of way to move at faster speeds with DarkPlaces protocol 7. And then you have Quakeworld where this is exploited to the extent that no normal players need bother playing.
Does anyone know why this happens and how it can be disabled/stopped without ruining something very Quakey?

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c0burn Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 158 Location: Liverpool, England |

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |

This is one of those things that is best called a feature.

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goldenboy Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 310 Location: Kiel |

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |

You somehow accelerate while turning/circle strafing. No need to jump at all, you can easily reach speeds well over 400 without ever pressing jump just by strafing and turning in the same direction. In QW, it's just much simpler to endlessly accelerate while jumping. In NQ, you have to keep pressing or at least tapping +forward every time you jump, which makes it rather hard to gain really high speed and also acts like a speed limit in practice (unless you are Stubgaard or one of those guys, ie. a specialist).
This is because QW apparently has no mandatory friction frame (when you touch the ground) while NQ has (hence the need to tap +forward at exactly the right moment, which is very hard because it will act as a brake if you do it just a little wrong).
The question is if this is really a bug. What does the player gain from it?
Jumping gives a very audible cue to the opponent, while running in normal Quake doesn't. This is one drawback.
In SP, bunnyhopping or trickjumping breaks the game less than rocketjumping or slopejumping do. With the latter, you can cut huge parts of a level; with the former, you'll mainly have an advantage in fighting (which most players don't even need).
From a SP perspective, you should disable slope jumping rather than bunnyhopping or "zigzagging" (does anyone actually do that?)...
Don't know how much this "breaks" multiplayer though. Do you want to make a newbie-friendly Quake version with a hard speed limit?
I know this isn't an answer.

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |

goldenboy wrote:
The question is if this is really a bug. What does the player gain from it? ... I know this isn't an answer.

/Note: I'm not looking at this from a Quake point-of-view. Whether or not someone likes this in Quake doesn't have anything to do with the million other things that could be done with a total conversion using the Quake engine.
I'm just curious of the answer if anyone knows.

Quote:
An aside: Whether person X, Y or Z likes/dislikes is up to them to decide for themselves. I mean, in Quake no matter how far you fall it's 5 damage points. Doesn't mean a total conversion should use that. Counter-Strike initially had bunnyhopping and then after a series of revisions eliminated it entirely as far as I know.

I'm looking at it as an engine issue.
The problem this causes is that undocumented and unintended "tricks" tend to annoy newcomers, and this characteristic of the engine isn't one in a design document.
I'd think the engine risk is that a new game using the Quake engine would bring the same gameplay characteristic with the same potential for alienating new players.

Quote:
Aside #2: I know LordHavoc for instance didn't intend to have speed tricks for Darkplaces protocol 7, but eventually some people in Nexuiz I guess figured out how to move really fast. From what I've read in the Nexuiz forums, this has the potential of limiting the number of new players that stick with Nexuiz.

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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |

I always hated bunnyhopping, especially in teamplay class games like TF where one class is supposed to be faster than another for balancing reasons. When you cheat and get moving faster than that, that screws up the game balance. Yet so many people are reliant on exploiting the cheat they had a hissy fit when I tried to fix it.
We have two paths to choose from. The first is to legitimize the cheat and incorporate it into normal gameplay and game documentation. IMO, this sucks, but some gamers would commit suicide if they couldn't bunnyhop everywhere they went. This does add another skill for players to master to gain the edge over their opponents, which is seen as a very good thing by some players; however, I personally feel it's game ruining when everyone actually gains an advantage by hopping everywhere incessantly. The game starts to suck really fast, and not all games/mods can be fun with such "features" present.
The second option is the one Counterstrike took. Some games simply should not allow such a "feature" and should fix the bug so that players are not able to cheat with it. The game doesn't play well with it enabled, so we don't allow it. As LH has found, players will always try to find another way to cheat... but that doesn't mean we throw up our hands and abandon fixing the exploits.
I personally feel a game is better when you win by the rules, instead of finding some unintended cheat for beating your opponents. Some people feel differently. After all, many "competitive" players play with fullbright models, wall invisibility toggle keys, hacked invisibility models so they can see invisible players easily, etc. They're not interested in sport, they just want to win at all costs.... and those are just the people who don't play with aimbots, etc.
Like it or not, bunnyhopping is a bug and many modern games have disabled it for a reason. Several reasons, in fact. This option should be available to modders as well. A simple server cvar or some such to toggle bunnyhopping would let the mod writer and/or server decide if bunnyhopping is appropriate for their game. I know it's not appropriate for most of my mods, and I would appreciate the option.
_________________
When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |

I'm with Wazat. There's no harb in having a cvar to turn it off. _________________ Apathy Now!

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leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1321 |

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: |

You can't imagine how much the Godwin's Law accusation showed when I proposed killing the obsolete r_vertexLight cvar in OpenArena (when it was meant for early single TMU hardware no longer in reasonable use in modern computers today, but popularily exploited as a 'no more shadows' visibilitycheat), ditto for proposing a cap of picmip to 4 and killing the r_intensity cvar (makes invisible players fully visible)
'Professional' gamers aren't pros, they are under the influence of 'drugs'.

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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |

In my experience, in both Quake and Super Smash Bros professional players actively search for cheats and call exploiting them "skills". It's a real game killer. _________________ When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |

leileilol wrote:
ditto for proposing a cap of picmip to 4

There shouldn't be a picmip cvar today. Is not 1996. Maybe for mappers in developer mode.

Quote:
'Professional' gamers aren't pros, they are under the influence of 'drugs'.

I say don't let the inmates run the prison.

Quote:
An example of what happens when inmates run prison: At the risk of offending someone, the European Quakeworld community is an perfect example of what happens if inmates run the prison. 1. Destroy the game appearance. Turn it into 2 color pong game.
2. Any discussion of the major flaw of bunnyhopping is recast into angry "Is not bug, is feature". A vocal 10% dominate the discussion.
3. Change the game from "skill oriented" to settings oriented; introduce programming language like characteristics to the config system and add 80 cvars to turn off things.
4. To accomodate the above, make a mouse-driven menu with 7000 options to control the slightest stupid setting that might give someone the slightest visibility, mouse or fps advantage.
Step #5 deceive ...
5. Show pictures of the game with high resolution textures and graphics and omit the fact that the experienced players are playing with pong graphics.
If there is nothing wrong with pong graphics, why not portray the game as the pong graphics used while playing?
Step #6
"Why aren't newbies staying?"

But again, I myself just ask the question for the sake of future use of it.
Quake is what it is. But I don't think future total conversions should include the exploit. (kiss of death)
I'm guessing this is the movement directions (wishspeed components) not getting cuberoot limited or scaled within the context of sv_maxspeed on the client side or server side?
I've not looked at the code in detail.

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Spirit Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 476 |

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |

Sure, if you want 1996 Quake, then QuakeWorld is not for you. But if you look at QuakeWorld today, it is a bloody great game. And bunnyhopping is playing a huge part of it. PS: Using a fov higher than 90 is a cheat just like using the mouse to aim. Weapon binds? You gotta be kidding me! ...
edit: Baker, where is that quote from? Maybe you aren't aware of it, but the european QW scene is well alive and steadily attracting newbies.
_________________
Quake Maps

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |

Spirit wrote:
PS: Using a fov higher than 90 is a cheat just like using the mouse to aim. Weapon binds? You gotta be kidding me! ...

Some games don't allow changing the FOV. I believe Counterstrike is one of them, for example (this example could be wrong but I'm pretty certain it isn't. I know you can't change the fov in Half-Life (current version with updates); at least typing a new fov in the console doesn't work -- zoom is a property of the scope of certain weapons).
Mouselook has always been part of Quake. With that comment you are just being silly.

Quote:
Maybe you aren't aware of it, but the european QW scene is well alive and steadily attracting newbies.

Sure, by effectively stealing Quake via downloads of registered Quake content off the servers and breaking the shareware EULA. But, I didn't bring this up because it doesn't fit as part of the discussion and I really don't care because what other communities do is their business.
The shareware EULA says no custom maps and no mods. Frogbot is a mod, and the download you know I'm referring to contains custom maps.
My point isn't that <insert download name> isn't legal in what it does.
My point is that if you are willing to break the EULA, it is easy to get new players.
Just think of how popular single player maps at Func_Msgboard would be if there were a link to download the shareware and have the client steal the rest of the required files from a server.
But this tangent doesn't interest me. I don't think future total conversions should include speed exploits nor should games cater to "competitive" players that want to have a settings advantage over others].
/And that isn't quote, I just boxed the text to make the post easier to read. That's my perception of what I believe is wrong about how Quakeworld operates, all players pressure developers for cheats and to not fix exploits but that doesn't mean you do it.

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: |

I probably could have written one or more of my above posts more clearly. So add ...

Spirit wrote:
if you look at QuakeWorld today, it is a bloody great game. And bunnyhopping is playing a huge part of it.

If players like playing with whatever physics they like and whatever game appearance a community views as acceptable, that's up to them to decide. To that extent my critique was wrong.
Again, the intent of the theme of the thread and the above critique post (maybe too critiquey and harsh) is to avoid the same mistake (or "feature") in future total conversions.

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: |

Spirit: What works for the QW community doesnt neccesarily work for all potential mods based on quake. It'd be nice to have the option to turn bunnyhopping off, and it would presumably be on by default. QW would be in no way affected, and if future games wanting bunnyhopping they'd be ok too, they just leave it on.
I see no downsides at all to a server-side cvar to turn it on and off.
_________________
Apathy Now!

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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: |

I just avoid bunnyhopping heavy gameplay, slowing down can be a wonderful thing for a good game (so long as you're not feeling just plain sluggish - CoD4 is guilty of this, at least to me). I also don't care for bunnyhopping in class based gameplay, particularly when speed is one of the defining attributes of a class. A skilled bunnyhopping hwguy outpacing a non-bunnyhopping scout kind of takes the class impact out of TF...
I'm just not that enthralled with speed being a 'part of skill' in a genre that typically engages a lot more than just 'think fast!' if you let it... It feels like selling Quake short.

Quote:
if you want 1996 Quake, then QuakeWorld is not for you

What if you want 1997 Quake? QW should be for me then... I think the simple fact of the matter when it comes to such physics nuances is that they are just that, nuances, elements not taken into account by the designers. Designers of new mods, are perfectly within their right as designers, to take it into account and remove it or expand it as they see fit.
I understand that some people love their bunnyhopping, but it is hardly the heart of Quake, and for me, it barely enters into my experience of Quake as a virtue. Let the coders who do the actual work make the call; I'll be frequenting the servers with anti-wallhacks and anti-bunnying, because thats how I like to play.
_________________
...and all around me was the chaos of battle and the reek of running blood.... and for the first time in my life I knew true happiness.

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Supa Joined: 26 Oct 2004 Posts: 122 |

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:51 am Post subject: |

Quote:
Again, the intent of the theme of the thread and the above critique post (maybe too critiquey and harsh) is to avoid the same mistake (or "feature") in future total conversions.

Mistake? "Feature"? Bunnyhopping is a behavior that is only possible because of how the Quake player movement code is written. Though it may be unintended behavior, it is a natural result nonetheless.
If anyone wishes to remove it from their game there is *nothing* stopping them from rewriting the movement code. In fact, certain engines make it quite easy to do such - look up DP_SV_PLAYERPHYSICS sometime.

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