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mh Joined: 12 Jan 2008 Posts: 909 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: |

Baker wrote:

mh wrote:
Nobody said Nexuiz is going non-GPL.

The files aren't going non-GPL. But the project name and identity is in a very unclear area ...
metlslime phrased this very well ...

metlslime wrote:
I wouldn't trust any company to let me use their trademark for an unofficial project, in the long run. Even if illfonic plays nice for now, as soon as they get bought by a giant faceless company, that company will honor none of the "gentelman's agreements" about any trademark or other IP it believes it owns.

The obvious solution is to have a contract drawn up which stipulates the usage rights. We don't know if such a thing exists or not, and without further info everything is just pointless speculation (with quite a large dollop of paranoia on top, it appears). I don't believe that the Nexuiz team are fools. Nobody made them do this, they could have said "no" but yet they said "yes".
I say that we're all better off holding back on the knee-jerk reactions, taking the info we have at face value only, reading nothing between any lines, and waiting until more info is forthcoming. Based on that it all looks positive enough.
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dreadlorde Joined: 24 Nov 2009 Posts: 86 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:23 pm Post subject: |

What ``rights'' are Supa and MH talking about? _________________

Ken Thompson wrote:
One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code.

Get off my lawn!

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mh Joined: 12 Jan 2008 Posts: 909 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:34 pm Post subject: |

dreadlorde wrote:
What ``rights'' are Supa and MH talking about?

I can't speak for Supa but in my case it's rights to the name, specifically who owns the name and who's allowed to do what with it.
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Teiman Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 309 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:40 pm Post subject: |

Firefox used to be called Firebird, name changes are not unheard of (even Firefox is called Icefox in debian).

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:47 pm Post subject: |

Teiman wrote:
Firefox used to be called Firebird, name changes are not unheard of (even Firefox is called Icefox in debian).

Part of me thinks that the "GPL Nexuiz" as a project may very well be "finished".
One weakness of Nexuiz is the highly advanced code in the engine and the QC. This means very few developers are actually capable of maintaining the work.
As I've understood it, for a long time Nexuiz has been highly dependent on just 1 or 2 main project maintainers.
Lose one and there really isn't a way for the project to continue.
At least that's my understanding.
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Teiman Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 309 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:59 pm Post subject: |

Baker wrote:

Teiman wrote:
Firefox used to be called Firebird, name changes are not unheard of (even Firefox is called Icefox in debian).

Part of me thinks that the "GPL Nexuiz" as a project may very well be "finished".
One weakness of Nexuiz is the highly advanced code in the engine and the QC. This means very few developers are actually capable of maintaining the work.
As I've understood it, for a long time Nexuiz has been highly dependent on just 1 or 2 main project maintainers.
Lose one and there really isn't a way for the project to continue.
At least that's my understanding.

Yea, but thats is maintenance work, I suppose.
About 50% of Nexuiz is DarkPlaces, and I suppose DarkPlaces will continue.
I have see request for devs for Nexuiz for eons .. the project has been searching for memnbers for more than 8 years. Something to admire Vermeulen is his streng of will to move the whole thing forward. I know because I am a lazy bun that can't finish week-end mods in a month I would love to have that strengh.

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mh Joined: 12 Jan 2008 Posts: 909 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:48 pm Post subject: |

Well I don't see any reason why DarkPlaces would suddenly stop on account of this, unless LH himself decides to stop for his own reasons. Historically it's always been used for a game that has non-GPL content anyway. What I do see is a tendency to extrapolate scenarios out to worst-possible, which reminds me of some of the truth-twisting that the more extreme Linux fanbois get up to when it comes to OS comparison.
Chill out y'all. We literally do not know the full details yet.
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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:17 am Post subject: |

No doubt my last comment in this thread ... I've changed my mind. I do wish this project success and I hope LH, Vermis and Kedhrin Gonzalez are successful. And I did make some baseless unfair comments in regard to Kedhrin. I can think of plenty of great things that can come of the end of the active lifespan of "GPL Nexuiz" (if div0 stops, "GPL Nexuiz" is effectively over. DarkPlaces isn't Nexuiz, Nexuiz is the game media and game logic that uses DP as the engine. FTE can run it kind of sort of, I understand ... for instance).
First, it really was a completed project. Maybe some of the contributors will find new equivalent type of projects.
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goldenboy Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 310 Location: Kiel |

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:47 am Post subject: |

Some people sold out. It's never a pretty sight, but it happens. As much as I want to punch them in the face, I can understand them. This is life, really. The right thing to do for the remaining community would be to severe all ties to that company and the ex-leaders. The community is basically beheaded. I believe a fresh start is needed. They should pick a cool new name and continue on a new, community-operated website. They still have GPL Darkplaces and the current state of the gamecode and assets etc., so nothing is lost except the name and a few people.
The way it was handled by that company was less than smart. As for the name debate, clearing up from the start which rights were transferred to whom might have prevented things from getting ugly. The heartless producer speak was a mistake. The thread locking was very dumb, sorry.
My only personal interest here is in the future of GPL Darkplaces. I'd like to know what will become of it.
Final thought: Never, ever sign your copyright away so easily.
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frag.machine Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 728 |

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:01 am Post subject: |

Teiman wrote:
Firefox used to be called Firebird, name changes are not unheard of (even Firefox is called Icefox in debian).

From what I remember originally Firefox was supposed to be called Phoenix (allusion to a reborn from ashes Netscape), but then someone discovered the name was already registered.
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mh Joined: 12 Jan 2008 Posts: 909 |

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:55 am Post subject: |

goldenboy wrote:
Some people sold out. It's never a pretty sight, but it happens. As much as I want to punch them in the face, I can understand them. This is life, really. The right thing to do for the remaining community would be to severe all ties to that company and the ex-leaders. The community is basically beheaded. I believe a fresh start is needed. They should pick a cool new name and continue on a new, community-operated website. They still have GPL Darkplaces and the current state of the gamecode and assets etc., so nothing is lost except the name and a few people.
The way it was handled by that company was less than smart. As for the name debate, clearing up from the start which rights were transferred to whom might have prevented things from getting ugly. The heartless producer speak was a mistake. The thread locking was very dumb, sorry.
My only personal interest here is in the future of GPL Darkplaces. I'd like to know what will become of it.
Final thought: Never, ever sign your copyright away so easily.

Negative waves!
Seriously - what you say may be the case, but we don't actually know yet. Holding fire until we do know seems to be the best course of action here.
As for the future of GPL Darkplaces, I don't see any reason why this development should impact on it at all, and suggesting otherwise seems to be jumping the gun a little.
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Teiman Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 309 |

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:04 pm Post subject: |

frag.machine wrote:

Teiman wrote:
Firefox used to be called Firebird, name changes are not unheard of (even Firefox is called Icefox in debian).

From what I remember originally Firefox was supposed to be called Phoenix (allusion to a reborn from ashes Netscape), but then someone discovered the name was already registered.

It seems we both are right, you and me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mozilla_Firefox
m/b (alfa) -> Phoenix -> Firebird -> Firefox -> Icefox
-----
The project which became Firefox started as an experimental branch of the Mozilla Suite called m/b (or mozilla/browser). When sufficiently developed, binaries for public testing appeared in September 2002 under the name Phoenix.
The Phoenix name was retained until April 14, 2003 when it was changed (after a short stint as Phoenix Browser) due to trademark issues with the BIOS manufacturer, Phoenix Technologies (who produce a BIOS-based browser called Phoenix FirstWare Connect). The new name, Firebird, was met with mixed reactions, particularly as the Firebird database server already carried the name. In late April, following an apparent name change to Firebird browser for a few hours, the Mozilla Foundation issued an official statement which stated that the browser should be referred to as Mozilla Firebird (as opposed to just Firebird). Continuing pressure from the Firebird community forced another change, and on February 9, 2004 the project was renamed Mozilla Firefox (or Firefox for short).
----
Project renames are not uneard off. Open source rarelly have the incentive to register the name of the projects as a trademark, so any project, almost all, have a "temporal" name that any company can take.
FUN FACTS: CVS folders seems equally resistant to change, the source engine started as "src/" folder in the cvs of Valve.
FUN FACTS: Internet Explorer identify himself as a "Mozilla" in the user agent.
http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Internet%20Explorer/

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frag.machine Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 728 |

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject: |

Teiman wrote:
FUN FACTS: Internet Explorer identify himself as a "Mozilla" in the user agent. http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Internet%20Explorer/

FUN FACT (and completely derailing the thread for good): Internet Explorer 4 beta internal - and unofficial - name was "jihad" (in allusion to a "holy war" against Netscape predominance back then).
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goldenboy Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 310 Location: Kiel |

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:55 pm Post subject: |

MH: Notice I didn't say anything about GPL issues etc., exactly because I don't have enough information. I only read the 7-page thread at AT forums, and the official announcement. I worded my posting very carefully, actually. I think what I did say is maintainable.
Negative sounds different.
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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:05 am Post subject: |

This was said in a private channel, but in front of others so I am assuming LordHavoc won't mind me posting it:

Quote:
<LordHavoc> my agreement is not a work for hire, anything I write goes in DP for general use <LordHavoc> (unless an NDA blocks it - such as the PS3 support itself - or I just choose not to - such as crude hacks)

I am not going to comment on the nature of the name, or the qc, or the maps, but I will comment on that quote above - this means that LordHavoc is getting compensated by a financed third party to improve DarkPlaces which will find its way back to all users of DarkPlaces per LordHavoc's approval. Obviously he isn't going to commit the console code for legal reasons, as he said, nor is he going to commit hacky code (as anything specific to a project has a chance of being a hack). What this does mean is that for everything that Illfonic wants to add to their console port of Nexuiz in terms of functionality, graphical fidelity, and many other sorts of nice things, so long as the implementation meets up to LordHavoc's personal standard for the released code, and it does not violate a term of service with a platform, everyone who uses DP will benefit from it.
Let me iterate it once more; DarkPlaces is now being paid to advance, and the advances are not proprietary or closed. This strikes me as a win-win situation.
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