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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: |

/I have to say I am enjoying reading your discussion of history.

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LordHavoc Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 243 Location: western Oregon, USA |

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: |

FrikaC wrote:

LordHavoc wrote:

FrikaC wrote:
Generally people are selfish and they work for their own benefit.

It is both comforting and somewhat amusing that the QSG were wrong about the goals of Quake engine coders

Maybe. Remember that army of engine coders that arrived with the release of the Q1 source and departed with the release of the Q2 source? I don't think they had any community oriented motivations.

I always just accept that a lot of people will show up, and then move on when the next shiny thing comes out, the ones who stay are the true community.

FrikaC wrote:
Also, I'm insulted that you think I'm incompetent.

My apologies, I always associate the QSG with Ender, if I had interacted with you back then I probably would've joined the QSG.

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LordHavoc Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 243 Location: western Oregon, USA |

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: |

FrikaC wrote:

LordHavoc wrote:
QSG levels are nothing but meta-extensions, anyone can write up meta-extension specs and start advertising them and get them adopted by the other engine developers.

My goal in the early days, when we were discussing QSG level 1, was to make it completely about compatibility - and I was hoping they'd hold true to that. I didn't want to add features that a software engine couldn't easily implement.

It's worth noting that the need for a software quake engine was largely overstated, Quake3 was already out by the time the quake1 source came out, and required a 3D card (even if it was a piece of junk like the ATI Rage Pro).
knghtbrd held the opinion that software was pointless, another point that QuakeForge disagreed on, but in my case the decision was much simpler - compiling assembly in DarkPlaces was too difficult with MSVC++ 4.0, I didn't have 5 or 6, and the performance of the pure C software renderer was too bad (now compilers can optimize it to the point that there's not much difference, but it was very different back then).

FrikaC wrote:
From original concept which I had laid out in the QSML "A call for standards" mail and private chats, QSG would've been awesome. I blame others for its failure.

I blame Ender.
Ender is a great friend, but seems to have no management skills

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LordHavoc Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 243 Location: western Oregon, USA |

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: |

Baker wrote:
/I have to say I am enjoying reading your discussion of history.

I haven't had a good opportunity to explain my view of early Quake coding politics before.

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ajay Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 295 Location: Swindon, UK |

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: |

Someone needs to write a book on the history of Quake Mod/Engine development, it would be fascinating. I'd buy it, to be honest I should write it, but I doubt I'd have the time or the diligence. _________________ my site

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Tomaz Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 49 |

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: |

Bwahahaha, so fun to read ones name in so many posts without a good reason. I honestly did not know ( not back then and not now ) that it was this much "politics" involved in quake engine developing back in the days. I just coded what i wanted to code and basically didnt give a f**k about what other wanted or what their goal was.
Hmm... sounds exactly like how I work nowadays as well..
Aaaaaanyway..
But its fun to see that me adding pr_checkextension to TQ was only a brick in LordHavoc's game of world domination ( yeah right! )
I'm not sure if I should be flattered ( is the even a word? ) or offended...

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LordHavoc Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 243 Location: western Oregon, USA |

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |

Tomaz wrote:
But its fun to see that me adding pr_checkextension to TQ was only a brick in LordHavoc's game of world domination ( yeah right! ) I'm not sure if I should be flattered ( is the even a word? ) or offended...

I have a manipulative nature that is rarely exposed for what it really is, and it often leads to hurt feelings, which I do not intend
I try to be very honest when recalling the past, even if that means admitting that I was being manipulative to achieve my goals.
I mean no offense, and I like to think my goals are good for the community, but I realize that the ends may not justify the means.
Yes flattered is a word.

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Sajt Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 1028 |

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: |

The politics were and are just play politics anyway. _________________ F. A. Špork, an enlightened nobleman and a great patron of art, had a stately Baroque spa complex built on the banks of the River Labe.

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leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1322 |

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |

NO IT WASN'T. CHEAPHACK > DARKPLACES ALL THE WAY your a dick if u dont play cheap hack quake _________________

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LordHavoc Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 243 Location: western Oregon, USA |

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: |

leileilol wrote:
NO IT WASN'T. CHEAPHACK > DARKPLACES ALL THE WAY your a dick if u dont play cheap hack quake

I think this joke fell a little flat unfortunately, parodying trolls doesn't work that well

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frag.machine Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 728 |

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: |

leileilol wrote:
NO IT WASN'T. CHEAPHACK > DARKPLACES ALL THE WAY your a dick if u dont play cheap hack quake

_________________
frag.machine - Q2K4 Project
http://fragmachine.quakedev.com/

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leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1322 |

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: |

ya rly run cheaphack on kyro2 run darkplaces on kyro2I REST MY CASE _________________

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: |

Frankly, I was always dubious of the concept of the QSG. It seemed to me at the time to be a case of attempting to exert an unnecesary level of control over engine coding. It was natural that initially there would be a splurge of engines with random weird and wonderful features, with little regard for speed or consistency. In this regard it mirrored the early qc development, the cdrom.com days.
It also seemed to me anyway that this tendency would die down and we'd be left with a few more serious projects. I didn't predict anything like DP coming along to fill all the gaps, but it seemed to me that once the initial crazies had worn off, we'd find ourselves left with fewer engines, which would be able to self regulate. pr_checkextension is an example of this form of self-regulation, a standard that was rapidly accepted, seemingly due to LH's masterstroke of getting Tomaz to include it.
TomazQuake was the engine to beat. It provided a prettier playing experience and didn't run too slowly. At the time, this was what most people, including myself wanted. I didn't become interested in the extended modding options available in other engines until much later.
Eventually, the QSG proved unneccesary, and I think that was probably inevitable.
_________________
Apathy Now!

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