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goldenboy Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 310 Location: Kiel |

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: |

In RMQ, zombies are DBS-killable, chainsawable, and axe-killable. Honestly, the more options the player has, the better. Forcing the player into a certain behaviour makes a game suck. Remember, a mapper always has the option of not giving the player certain weapons.
Edit: Zombies are generally a pretty poor monster design - I think making them killable only with explosives was a desparate attempt to make them more interesting. It would have been better to simply improve their behaviour and character. Such as having their attack sicken or infect the player.
Zombies in games are mostly boring anyway.
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Spirit Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 476 |

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:41 pm Post subject: |

goldenboy wrote:
Honestly, the more options the player has, the better. Forcing the player into a certain behaviour makes a game suck.

I HIGHLY disagree. Knowing the mechanism and the expected behaviour is what makes a game like Quake fun. Having to adapt your attack for a certain kind of enemy is awesome. Limited AI, clear patterns of their attacks, clear objective how to kill them. For me there could even be more enemy-dependant attack patterns.
I currently play Zelda: Link's Awakening on the good old gameboy. In this game you constantly have to switch your attacks, monsters are well predictable. I love this. For example in one early dungeon there is a room with three monsters. On their skins hearts, clubs, diamonds and spades cycle. If you hit one, it will freeze and the symbol that was on its skin in the moment of damage will stay. Then you have to hit the others in the same cycle. If all three are frozen with the same symbol, you win. For others, more normal monsters, you have to use fast weapons. Either an arrow or for example a running attack. If they see you coming, they teleport away. Others are only killable from behind (fiend-like monsters would work very well with that).
Of course it is easier and more tradition to do such gameplay in 2D games but I think 3D FPS could highly benefit from it. COD4:MW is a recent (not so great but hey) example. There is a map with some heavy enemies (juggernauts?) you can only kill with multiple explosives. They kill you insanely fast. If you hit them, they pause for a moment. They also pause when flashbanged. That forces you into a very arcade-ish and frantic behaviour, almost like speedrunning. It is not boring "there is an enemy, shoot it til it dies" but "find enemy, hit it and run away to get a good position again". Badly explained, sorry.
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goldenboy Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 310 Location: Kiel |

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:55 pm Post subject: |

Spirit wrote:

goldenboy wrote:
Honestly, the more options the player has, the better. Forcing the player into a certain behaviour makes a game suck.

I HIGHLY disagree.

I knew you would.

Quote:
Knowing the mechanism and the expected behaviour is what makes a game like Quake fun.

Not for me.

Quote:
Having to adapt your attack for a certain kind of enemy is awesome.

It is part of an enjoyable experience, but only to a certain degree. I should be able to run over monsters with a truck instead of shooting them, for example. Or throw a flashbang to blind them, then shotgun them at point blank range. That's what I enjoy.

Quote:
Limited AI

Not a fan.

Quote:
clear patterns of their attacks

Sure. Each monster or enemy class should have an individual attack, absolutely, with an enemy class being a range of similar, but varied enemies.

Quote:
clear objective how to kill them.

I disagree. Always killing a certain monster in a certain way with a certain weapon limits replayability. The more options on how to kill a monster, the better. Each option should have different consequences or risk levels of course. I want to be able to play a game differently depending on my mood. One day I might use hand grenades and shotguns, next day run them over with a car, next week lure them to an explosive barrel and blow them all up, the month after maybe drop a piano on them. That keeps a game fun for me.
I am a huge fan of game mechanics like backstabbing, stealth (as long as it's optional), traps, and so forth. I'm also a fan of Hexen 2's class system for precisely this reason: I choose the assassin if I want to backstab, the paladin if I want to hack and slash. The possibility to take different approaches to a game makes things like Diablo so popular.

Quote:
I currently play Zelda: Link's Awakening on the good old gameboy. In this game you constantly have to switch your attacks, monsters are well predictable. I love this.

We're mixing things up here. I am OK with predictable / signature attacks by monsters. All I'm saying is that you should be able to take different approaches to killing them depending on the mood you're in.

Quote:
For example in one early dungeon there is a room with three monsters. On their skins hearts, clubs, diamonds and spades cycle. If you hit one, it will freeze and the symbol that was on its skin in the moment of damage will stay. Then you have to hit the others in the same cycle. If all three are frozen with the same symbol, you win. For others, more normal monsters, you have to use fast weapons. Either an arrow or for example a running attack. If they see you coming, they teleport away. Others are only killable from behind (fiend-like monsters would work very well with that).
Of course it is easier and more tradition to do such gameplay in 2D games but I think 3D FPS could highly benefit from it. COD4:MW is a recent (not so great but hey) example. There is a map with some heavy enemies (juggernauts?) you can only kill with multiple explosives. They kill you insanely fast. If you hit them, they pause for a moment. They also pause when flashbanged. That forces you into a very arcade-ish and frantic behaviour, almost like speedrunning. It is not boring "there is an enemy, shoot it til it dies" but "find enemy, hit it and run away to get a good position again". Badly explained, sorry.

Yeah, I get that. You mean monsters used like puzzle pieces, predetermined setups for the player to pass. I think that can be fun (I have done it myself in one RMQ map), but an entire game consisting of that would not be my thing because it gets old fast. Like any puzzle, a puzzle using monsters can have its place, but in a shooter game, I want 100 ways to blow shit up, please.
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Teiman Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 309 |

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:43 am Post subject: |

I think Nehara is a good example of how expand the Quake universe for good (but the final stuff). I am inclined to say that I think Nehara is *canon*, not expanded universe, but part of what sould be considered canon.

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goldenboy Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 310 Location: Kiel |

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:21 pm Post subject: |

/WARNING CONTAINS IRONY If there was a canon, I think this would be in it for sure: - pushables - breakables - extended physics, at least Gyro (don't tell though)
- minor AI enhancements (minor, very minor!)
- NPCs (must serve as cannon fodder or decoration, nothing more)
- force fields / force bridges
- rotating entities
- colored lighting (subtle man, subtle)
- extra monsters (must be "eldritch")
- more hitpoints, more damage to monsters (but no AI upgrades!!)
- cutscenes, cameras / actors (Zer, Neh)
- statue monsters
- turrets
- grappling hook (if you do it in singleplayer, DO NOT mention where you got the idea)
- different melee weapons (eldritch weapons such as swords and chainsaws...)
- lots of blood, including decapitations, "gibbable" corpses, gib fountains, gibs in any shape or form really, and the old Halloween workhorse of blood substituting for water (it was old back then, folks)
Going mostly by Nehahra and Zerstorer here. Malice is full of cool stuff, sadly not enough people have played it.
Stuff that probably would be considered "not canon":
- a real class system ala Hexen 2
- Vehicles, at least cars
- extended player movement like ducking, going prone, swimming etc.
- any singleplayer AI that deserves the name (some people run screaming when you mention strafing monsters, although the scrag in vanilla Quake does strafe)
- hub system ala Hexen 2 or Quake 2, or other creative models of progress (most people seem to think that Quake is defined by "shoot everything and find the exit")
- any halfway realistic theme like a city, a bank, a jungle (realistic is almost considered Satanism by the Quake community)
- attempts at storytelling, quests, objectives or plots (see realism)
- upgrades to player or weapons, levelling etc.
- fall damage, bandaging, reloading, locational damage etc. (again, see realism)
- hitscan weapons, sniper rifles etc
- stealth
- rock-paper-scissors, toolbox or otherwise balanced weapon system
- monsters that "have a life" or are busy (they're supposed to wait for the player)
- small scale or cramped levels (large setpieces and horde combat preferred)
- reasonable (lower) difficulty; any attempts at "balancing" the game are seen as sacrilege
- level design focused on gameplay; in Quake, level design is understood as "environment design" first and foremost
- ambush based gameplay ala DOOM3
- removing the monster counter or the scoreboard
- reducing "competitive elements"
Basically, whenever you suggest something that modern games do well, some people in the Quake community start twitching uncontrollably and almost drop their... *eep* ... rocket launchers. Yeah, rocket launchers.
That should sum it up.
/IRONY
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Sajt Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 1026 |

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: |

A warning: no matter how good your mod is, no more than 5 or 10 people will ever play it. So there is no point in worrying about the Quake "canon". If you do manage to get more people interested in playing your mod, you can bet that they have absolutely no acquaintance with the context and history of Quake (in fact, they probably were born since Quake's release), and so they won't care about the "canon" either.
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leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1321 |

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:10 pm Post subject: |

a double warning: standalone games do not suffer this, but brace for the bigger todo list of making original data (or just dummy it all out). Though the reality... people will only really care if it's multiplayer. Another problem is that original discs of Quake v1.01 do not install in Windows, Mac or Linux properly (being a DOS installer), so obtaining and installing Quake already requires some minimum level of knowhow in 2010 (but this was all common knowledge and procedure in 1996, when there wasn't a dumbity threshold exposed outside aol/yahoo chat)
so getting a 'quake 1 fan' these days means they're in because of Solitude/Kurok, not because of the mythos. Good luck finding self proclaimed Quake fans that know the origin of Shub Niggurath (and even see racist implications in the name somehow itself. Spawn's codename doesn't help this either...)
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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:16 pm Post subject: |

One of the BIGGEST taboos I've ever encountered was messing with Quake's exploits and other such features: bunnyhopping, rocket jumps, strafe jumps, etc. I've never seen the community so enraged as when those topics are brought up or tampered with.
lei: You can buy a fully functional Quake off of steam for $10 or less. I did. Even cheaper if you get it in the more expensive bundle that includes Q2 & 3, plus all expansions. I think Amazon also sells a Quake pack with all the quake games on it, using updated installers. It's possible to obtain Quake 1 without too much haggling/system knowledge.
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leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1321 |

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:48 pm Post subject: |

Remember Counter-Strike 1.3 when they 'removed' bunny hopping in 2001? Only Obi Wan could measure the magnitude whining there. The play-to-win kind of gamer is one of the biggest factors against motivation towards a creative vision because whatever new you come up with is excised for thier best personal winnertunities, and if you nerf their path towards #1, you won't hear the end of it. I deal with this myself, and it's why OpenArena hasn't even hit 1.0 yet because all they'll ever use is a copied-over keel/pm or a super bright sarge, no one cares about the things I actually do. (Sorry about the plug! No ad intention)

Wazat wrote:
lei: You can buy a fully functional Quake off of steam

No ambient NINery != fully functional!!!
By the way, how did NIN do the ambient tracks anyhow? They seem too hard to pull off in modplug... Quake never had music outside two brief instrumental bits, so even making canon 'music' is difficult. The missionpacks struggled with music dissonance IMO (even if Hipnotic had that cool 'base' song), and XMEN:ROA's music was just plain crap. Hell I think the orchestral bits in nehahra are unfitting!
Nostalgia can also play a factor. Personally I use a pack of old tracker music set in Quake which is what I did without a CD in all the time (had a second computer for music playback, before music players had < 63% CPU usage (WinAMP 1.x era), and before full duplex sound cards were the norm. If this sounds ridiculous and expensive, believe me when I say this is more efficient than getting a CD burner and making an audio CD to use at the time). As much as I like it that way, this is not how Quake should be canonized aurally. But, ST-## sample music in a low FPS 320x200x8 world does make an interesting atmosphere...
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r00k Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 483 |

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:48 am Post subject: |

Quote:
- grappling hook (if you do it in singleplayer, DO NOT mention where you got the idea)

Are you kidding?! I'm totally working on a mod that's kinda like a 'post modern PITALL' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitfall! ). I'm thinking of the grappling like an extention of the hand visually or a tractorbeam like thing. The player would be a humanoid mech-like-strogg. maybe hooking through abandoned sewer tunnels, or warehouses, etc...
just kiddin but I wouldnt mind... i'm a complete CTF junkie, and find myself hooking capturephobopolis for about 20 minutes on an empty server just to wind down Utilizing the Quake physics (air strafing, grapple hopping, etc) a mod with a hook for single player would be cool, if the objective of the game/mod encompassed re-playability.

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Sajt Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 1026 |

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:26 am Post subject: |

Wazat wrote:
One of the BIGGEST taboos I've ever encountered was messing with Quake's exploits and other such features: bunnyhopping, rocket jumps, strafe jumps, etc. I've never seen the community so enraged as when those topics are brought up or tampered with.

But are you confusing 1998 with 2010?
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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:53 am Post subject: |

Sajt wrote:
But are you confusing 1998 with 2010?

I got chewed out big time when I started my Nexuiz TF mod and tried to eliminate bunnyhopping. I also remember getting chewed out in a discussion about Quake's pro gamers and another about how to eliminate bunnyhopping from Quake. The pro community is the biggest violator of exploits like bunnyhopping. They're the most hyper-conservative Quake players in the community. Bunny hopping has become their culture and how they define the game. Taking out bunny hopping is like removing all the weapons but the axe, and the only responses I've ever remembered getting from them on the subject is rage and/or threats of "no one will ever play your mod".
Note that I mean conservative in their attitude toward Quake canon, not in a political sense.
Personally, I feel that if you don't target conservatives with your mod, you may have fewer players but you'll end up with a better mod that's more fun for those who do play. Don't be too concerned with what's canon. Concern yourself with what's cool, fun, gives amazing ambiance, etc. Don't let yourself suffer death by committee because then all the cool stuff gets scratched from your mod, and you end up with raw Quakeworld with 1 or 2 non-invasive modifications. And the lobbyist players who fought against all the other features will complain about the features that made it, too, because they want raw Quakeworld, or possibly Rocket Arena. Cut those players out of the picture right from the start and make something cool instead. When someone has a sharply narrow view of canon AND they make a big scene when someone steps outside of that narrow zone, their views should have no bearing on what you do with your mod. People can disagree, they can offer suggestions and advise, but ultimately you have to decide what your mod will do, and what it won't do.
My 2 cents.
</rant></preach></bold></blink>
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Teiman Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 309 |

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:45 am Post subject: |

If canon is defined by the community, then theres more than one canon, because theres more than one community. The multiplayer players, the people that play maps, the people that make maps, the people that make mods, the people that download singleplayer mods. More than one canon.
I still think the horror theme is the one that fir quake better.
Quad Shotgun's is quake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqD2jdKBdA8&feature=related
Supernatural stuff + some H.P Lovercraft stuff + Weapons + Some Horror Sci-fi stuff (this include zombies somehow) = Quake
In Quake magic is the use of some unknow natural laws by Very Old entities, like Wizard Aliens ( Vore ) or Ancient Gods (supersmart inmortal creatures like SubNigurtah). These creatures are soo powerfull that can move trough time. But maybe are limited to dimension areas. So IF you open a door, to let then enter you dimension, you and all your whole dimension (even the past) is doomed.

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goldenboy Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 310 Location: Kiel |

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: |

One of the parts I removed from my post was about a Quake canon being a little too nerdy for my tastes and it only being a game... I shouldn't remove more than half of every post after typing nasty habit to get in. Leilei brought up an interesting point with the soundtrack.
Personally I think it was probably done with something like Protools, it seems like a fully fledged NIN production more than something out of a tracker.
Samplers, guitars etc. and protools.
I think "remaking" the soundtrack would probably end in failure.
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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:01 am Post subject: |

http://project-aftershock.newgrounds.com/ _________________ ...and all around me was the chaos of battle and the reek of running blood.... and for the first time in my life I knew true happiness.

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