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Urre Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 1073 Location: Sweden |

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:18 am Post subject: |

Baker wrote:
Nexuiz's "Magic Ear" entity is of extreme interest to me.

Want to explain what it is?
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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:27 am Post subject: |

Urre wrote:

Baker wrote:
Nexuiz's "Magic Ear" entity is of extreme interest to me.

Want to explain what it is?

It is a listening engine modification that checks the spoken chat code for a certain word as I understand it (supported in the QC of course).
So there could be a guard that needs the password and you'd need to say it, for instance.
I'm not sure how Nexuiz uses it or even IF it does (but it is a defined Nexuiz map capability) as I found the entity and the presumable DarkPlaces extension in the Nexuiz mapping .def file or whatever.
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frag.machine Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 728 |

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: |

mh wrote:
The trouble here is that Quake as-is forces you to use the console and the command-line. There's a bit of a Unix weenie mentality to this, don't you think? The console and command-line should become what they're meant to be - power tools for experienced users. The average player who couldn't care less should never have to even be aware that they exist.

I disagree. I'd rather to have the option to quickly type, let's say "color 2 2" or "name frag.machine" instead browsing thru lots of menus to set something so banal as name and team color. That said, I agree with Sajt: the console can be hide by default, but must be easily enabled by only pressing one or more keys. Using Valve's method of forcing you to add a command line option just to have console enabled is simply dumb.
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r00k Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 483 |

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: |

just add

Code:
if (key_dest != key_menu) M_Menu_Main_f();

near the end of Host_init...

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mk Joined: 04 Jul 2008 Posts: 94 |

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |

I agree 100% with Baker here. In Makaqu I already removed several startup messages, or turned them into developer messages that are only displayed when the developer cvar is set. And in Fightoon I removed the console completely.

frag.machine wrote:
I'd rather to have the option to quickly type, let's say "color 2 2" or "name frag.machine" instead browsing thru lots of menus to set something so banal as name and team color.

In Makaqu, the same key that's used for bringing up an specific menu can be used to directly go back to the game.
So, let's say you have the F5 key bound to menu_setup. Press F5, type your name or select your color, and press F5 again to return to the game.
This was VERY helpful for me during the testing of new features. No command typing, and no navigation through several menus.
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mh Joined: 12 Jan 2008 Posts: 909 |

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: |

frag.machine wrote:

mh wrote:
The trouble here is that Quake as-is forces you to use the console and the command-line. There's a bit of a Unix weenie mentality to this, don't you think? The console and command-line should become what they're meant to be - power tools for experienced users. The average player who couldn't care less should never have to even be aware that they exist.

I disagree. I'd rather to have the option to quickly type, let's say "color 2 2" or "name frag.machine" instead browsing thru lots of menus to set something so banal as name and team color. That said, I agree with Sajt: the console can be hide by default, but must be easily enabled by only pressing one or more keys. Using Valve's method of forcing you to add a command line option just to have console enabled is simply dumb.

Oh, that's not what I'm saying at all. I've no objections whatsoever to keeping the console available exactly the same way as it currently is; where I'm coming from has absolutely nothing to do with removing the option to use the console, and nothing to do with forcing someone to go another way. That would be just replacing one bad thing with another bad thing.
What I dislike is the Q1 mentality of forcing a casual gamer (who has perhaps never even seen a command-prompt in their life) to use the console for what should be quite basic stuff. I also dislike bombarding them with it as the first thing that they see when they run the game.
For what it's worth I prefer using the console too myself, and even if it was hidden behind a special key combination I would quite quickly get annoyed. But I'm not a typical user and my preference doesn't translate to a typical user's preference.
So - leave the console alone, yes. Leave it accessible as it always was, yes. Hide it at startup, yes. And make some important functions that could previously only be done via the console more accessible to the casual gamer, yes.
That's where I'm coming from.
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frag.machine Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 728 |

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject: |

To me, Quake always looked more like a big, complex testbed for gaming experiment than exactly a closed and polished product, and the dominance of the console kinda demonstrates this hacking nature. Actually, the whle console thing was received as a positive feature if I remember correctly. Of course, time and OS evolution in particular has changed people's perceptions since then.
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Spike Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 944 Location: UK |

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:29 pm Post subject: |

@Baker: I'd probably get less annoyed at NQ servers if they didn't have a limit of something like 30 chars on any say messages. :P offtopic: One of the more interesting and irrelevent changes in QuakeWorld is the existance of these two lines:
console_t con_main;
console_t con_chat;
con_chat isn't actually used, other than being cleared+resized. But hey, draw from it what you will.
A lot of games follow on from the Q3 model where the console is for chat, but you can type commands if you want them.
Using 't' for chat is okay, but then what's the difference between pressing t, typing your message, and hitting enter from pressing tilde, typing your message, pressing enter and escape. Okay, one more key press, but hey, you can see what everyone else actually typed before it got spammed off the screen by death messages (or just moved around lots). Yeah, sure, I'm a slow reader, happy now?
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gnounc Joined: 06 Apr 2009 Posts: 120 |

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:19 am Post subject: |

Spike, I agree entirely, there SHOULD be a binding menu. The problem is, devs often rush things and short us. Or think they know better than their players. Im not saying the work shouldnt already be frontloaded, I'm saying often it is not, and I would like the option to console command my way around pervasive developer preferences for when they think something stupid is great, or dont think of my speceific and uncommon case.
The console shouldnt be the first place you go..if it is the devs didnt do their job. On the other hand, it should always be available for something unforseen.

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject: |

Spike wrote:
@Baker: I'd probably get less annoyed at NQ servers if they didn't have a limit of something like 30 chars on any say messages.

The protocol actually supports 44, which is what ProQuake/Qrack/JoeQuake and co. use. Probably DarkPlaces too when connected to an NQ server.
I agree that 30 is quite short. 44 isn't too bad.
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r00k Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 483 |

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: |

I thought DP supported 128?

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Spike Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 944 Location: UK |

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject: |

say command message lengths is offtopic. created a new topic for such rants. kill the damn console! Stuffcmds are evil too (pro-tip: typing 'record ../id1/pak0.pak' is not a good idea when using a quakeworld engine. You can probably adapt it to break nq engines too.).
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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject: |

Spike wrote:
Stuffcmds are evil too (pro-tip: typing 'record ../id1/pak0.pak' is not a good idea when using a quakeworld engine. You can probably adapt it to break nq engines too.).

Haha!
NOW ... what is even worse. You could make a poisonous demo that did that and merely viewing the demo would destroy an existing file by overwriting it. I don't believe stuffcmds end up demo recordings but you can use demo tools to hack stuff into the demos.
Excellent, Spike. A great example of why stuffcmd is evil.
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mk Joined: 04 Jul 2008 Posts: 94 |

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: |

stuffcmd is great for recording demos, as it allows console commands like zoom_in and zoom_out to be saved in the demo file. JoyMenu (a mod to make Quake run better in the non-multiplayer Titanium Studios' QuakeDC engine) uses stuffcmd to make sure that effects which relies on cvar alterations in run-time are played back correctly from demos.
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Dr. Shadowborg Inside3D Staff Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 726 |

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:05 pm Post subject: |

Baker wrote:

Spike wrote:
Stuffcmds are evil too (pro-tip: typing 'record ../id1/pak0.pak' is not a good idea when using a quakeworld engine. You can probably adapt it to break nq engines too.).

Haha!
NOW ... what is even worse. You could make a poisonous demo that did that and merely viewing the demo would destroy an existing file by overwriting it. I don't believe stuffcmds end up demo recordings but you can use demo tools to hack stuff into the demos.
Excellent, Spike. A great example of why stuffcmd is evil.

No so much evil, per se as ridiculously easy to abuse in very, very bad ways.
It would be better if there were quakec extensions / builtins or something that would reduce or even eliminate the need for it, (such as a function for "flash" effects that would be customizable) but that would probably entail breaking protocols or some other wierd crap. And nobody seems to want to do that. Even worse, nobody wants to do it the proper way. (provide software, gl, and DirectX executables thereby making the "better" engine the new standard / semi-official, as opposed to just "try MY engine instead lol".)
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