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The Relevance of Player Abstinence

 
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scar3crow
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:19 pm    Post subject: The Relevance of Player Abstinence Reply with quote

Not that kind. I am speaking of Completists and being compelled by the presence of unexplored regions, unkilled monsters, and the incomplete list of secrets unveiled.

What do you think of gameplay involving a larger goal than the standard game means - that being pushing buttons and killing stuff - where the goal truly is the ends.

The obvious example of this is Stealth Quake, and also SpeedRunning where the means are the ends. FrikaC and Asaki's QExpo06 mods come to mind as well. Any thoughts on this? Ideas on how to expand it?

I myself tend to not leave a level until I've killed every monster and found every secret and have no questions left. In Diablo I don't leave an area until all of the map is revealed and I've consumed every precious amount of XP (but in that case, the XP is the means with which to attain the ends of the boss fight to reach the next Act).

How about player's abstaining from typical actions to better complete an action that is not merely exiting the level?
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Urre



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your last scentence didn't make sense to me, what do you mean by adstaining from typical actions? What are these "typical" actions?

Generally speaking, there are very few games nowadays which don't have a greater purpose than the fun of shooting things. Most games do this by being story-driven. Even though it's a completely lame way to make a game more purposeful, it still counts, as there is a goal beyond every other level. It's lame because it makes you feel like you're playing a game in a book, where the story goes on in one direction no matter what you do, or perhaps a movie where you only get to take part of the action-scenes. And don't start about Mass Effect or Baldurs Gate or what have you.

I've personally always preferred games which don't have a greater purpose, because my attention span is so limited, alongside with my limited time for games, all the immersion or reason the developers are trying to build up is lost on me. Be it the story, or character development ala Diablo, or item(gem) collecting ala Spyro the Dragon, I find such things mostly a nuisance. It's weird though, how Diablo1 & 2 still are some of my favorite games. You can't beat the high of going up a level, or finding another set piece... Ooh, and lets not forget how awesome Zelda games are with their hearts!

It's amazing how contradicting I can be in a single paragraph. What was the question again?
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scar3crow
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of Quake, the typical actions are killing monsters, engaging in active direct battle with them. Something we tend to do impulsively and to utter completion.

Quote:
Most games do this by being story-driven.

I would argue they still lack a greater purpose, they just managed to dictate flow more so, and minimize player input, which to me borders on nullifying its status on a game.

I lost an hour of my life last night reaching the requirement to summon Dire Wolves for my Druid...

The question is if there is a place for player abstinence regarding the games typical design. Quake's typical design is the elimination of monsters, so what of designs where that is not the focus (story is not an answer to this, story is a framework within which to provide extra justification for killing monsters).
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zxcvb



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm usually amazed by new fps games, because the developers of these new fps come up with amazing excuses for you to go around running and shooting stuff. They may pull emotional strings, make you think the situation needs it, or promise you money and glory, but they usually get it right. I have to admit, I like fps games, the story-driven ones, because it gives me the opportunity to be in the action sequences of the story, but getting killed and repeating a save game usually kills all inmersion, so it's really just an arcade run and gun.

From what I get you all prefer games with no other purpose than to beat the clock and get points. Kinda like wolf3d. Razz
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scar3crow
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer games that are not movies which cost $50. I find little immersion in cinematic experience/story driven games as they are so unevenly handled. If the arbitrary restrictions don't get you, the inappropriately handling of the content will. Be that Half-Life2's unstoppable chain link fence, or Call of Duty's nearly bloodless World War 2.

I don't make any bones about what first person shooters emulate - and the only honest appeal it can make in current design scenarios is one of personal survival coupled with the thrill of discovery. I fight and kill in Quake to survive, so I can see more of the world. I had little other reason - I just wanted more of it. In Half-Life, I wanted to see what else they had to show me, but I had to jump through more hoops, and protect some very nagging characters (contrast that with Unreal, where the penalty of letting a Nali die is your own emotions, and the positive is they may lead you to a secret area). But for me, in any of those games, the driving force was - whats next?

I'm not interested in beating the clock or getting points so much, but I am keen on discovering things, seeing new behaviors and wonders - and for this, the Cinematic Experience/Storydriven game is in harsh opposition to this.
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Urre



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you keep saying "abstinence"? Doesn't that mean the same as saying no to stuff like alcohol, drugs and sex?

EDIT: having looked things up, apparently it also means not being able to say no... That's just weird!
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zxcvb



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scar3crow wrote:
I prefer games that are not movies which cost $50. I find little immersion in cinematic experience/story driven games as they are so unevenly handled. If the arbitrary restrictions don't get you, the inappropriately handling of the content will. Be that Half-Life2's unstoppable chain link fence, or Call of Duty's nearly bloodless World War 2.

I don't make any bones about what first person shooters emulate - and the only honest appeal it can make in current design scenarios is one of personal survival coupled with the thrill of discovery. I fight and kill in Quake to survive, so I can see more of the world. I had little other reason - I just wanted more of it. In Half-Life, I wanted to see what else they had to show me, but I had to jump through more hoops, and protect some very nagging characters (contrast that with Unreal, where the penalty of letting a Nali die is your own emotions, and the positive is they may lead you to a secret area). But for me, in any of those games, the driving force was - whats next?

I'm not interested in beating the clock or getting points so much, but I am keen on discovering things, seeing new behaviors and wonders - and for this, the Cinematic Experience/Storydriven game is in harsh opposition to this.


So you would like games like GTA or oblivion, where you explore vast areas and uncover secrets.
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r00k



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I myself tend to not leave a level until I've killed every monster and found every secret and have no questions left.


I am stuck on the START map as I can't Kill the Zombies on the Wall near the lava! Evil or Very Mad after several hundred attempts, jumping and swinging my ax -- only to fall in the lava, I have to give up and put Quake away until another weekend Sad


Rolling Eyes
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Dr. Shadowborg
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

r00k wrote:

I am stuck on the START map as I can't Kill the Zombies on the Wall near the lava! Evil or Very Mad after several hundred attempts, jumping and swinging my ax -- only to fall in the lava, I have to give up and put Quake away until another weekend Sad


Rolling Eyes


Except that zombies mounted on the wall don't count as monsters to quake... Rolling Eyes Razz (Check level stats by pressing and holding TAB)

Silliness aside, scar3crow makes an interesting point. One that I must consider further for my own project once I begin working on the true singleplayer side of it.
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