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Rotation (Upside-down) and Negative Gravity?

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:43 am Post subject: Rotation (Upside-down) and Negative Gravity? |

With QuakeC as is, are upside down player models possible via rotation of some sort? I've never seen this so I'm assuming it isn't? And regardless of the answer to the above, is negative gravity possible where the player would be drawn toward the ceiling.

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ShoTro Joined: 18 Mar 2008 Posts: 61 Location: Virginia, USA |

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: Re: Rotation (Upside-down) and Negative Gravity? |

Baker wrote:
And regardless of the answer to the above, is negative gravity possible where the player would be drawn toward the ceiling.

I am assuming here, but since Quoth has the vorelings that can attach to the ceiling upside down I am guessing it is possible.
Also for the negative or reverse gravity I think you need to take a look at Gyro 2 for some interesting toying with gravity in Quake.
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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: |

Quake has a very very well defined sense of "down" to it which makes such things quite hacky. But yes, the vorelings hang, and in The Red Pill Error has the Quake player running sideways on walls in 3rd person (whether this is done via rotation or a model hack, I do not know).
I always like Serious Sam for such wonkiness.

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Urre Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 1073 Location: Sweden |

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |

It's remarkable how limited pretty much everyone seems to think QC is, all the bloody time. There's no well defined sense of "down" besides the fact that world coordinates for up are positive and down are negative, just like every game in the universe, you can manipulate those as you like. Ever tried a negative sv_gravity value? That would make you fall upwards. Then all you need to do is FL_ONGROUND management in qc, plus negative jump values, and you're done physics-wise. You can even rotate the playermodel upside down very easily, although it won't match the bbox height, also easily fixed by moving the origin in the bbox a bit (by defining a new bbox with the size '-16 -16 -32' '16 16 24'). The one part Quake is bad at is view angle manipulation and that sort of stuff, in case you want the view to turn upside down, and react properly to mouse movement and such. For that you'd want CSQC. It ofcourse is possible without, but not if you want it to work in multiplayer (because of the hacky way you need to do it by overusing fixangle and stuff).
So generally speaking, QC as a language doesn't limit you from making things compared to other languages, only your imagination does. I and LordHavoc managed to make an (almost) working physics engine with it for crying out loud, one which matches the physics engine in the first hitman game in approach and features, which means it would support real ragdolls (if it wasn't for the bugs). Can everyone stop trashing qc now?
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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |

Well I was talking Quake in general, engine as well, not just qc. However that well defined sense of down did not come from the ether - it came from a discussion I had with LordHavoc about a level idea I had involving numerous gravity points in the same room, with ai functioning on each of them, and rotation - and throughout the whole level. His response involved Quake's very well defined sense of down, deep within the engine and that it would take a lot of work to get around that.

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Lardarse Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 243 Location: Bristol, UK |

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |

However, for simple upside-downness, your main issues are:

- Rotating the player model
- making the model display at an offset so that he is not floating on the ceiling
- Giving the player inverted gravity
- Adjusting the eye position

Most of those are doable without too much trouble...

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |

Lardarse wrote:
However, for simple upside-downness, your main issues are:

- Rotating the player model
- making the model display at an offset so that he is not floating on the ceiling
- Giving the player inverted gravity
- Adjusting the eye position

Most of those are doable without too much trouble...

You forgot to add finding quality maps without any sky to "keep it real".
scar3crow, I hadn't see Error's Red Pill mod thread. I can't wait to see that.
I do think it would be fun to have a mod where ceiling camping was a legitimate peril.

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mh Joined: 12 Jan 2008 Posts: 910 |

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |

True, there is a well-defined sense of "down" in the engine, and it's in places like stair-step smoothing, "stuck" testing, in-water testing, water transitions, view offset bounding, and view model origin; to name just a few that popped up from a search for "origin[2]" in the source. For hacky stuff where you're not too concerned about quirks, you'll probably get by, but as most of these are actually relating to player movement, you might do better to reverse your tactics and rotate the world rather than rotate the player model.
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Urre Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 1073 Location: Sweden |

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: |

Most of all those things are possible to recode in qc to support upside down-ness or whatever. I do things like this all the time, replacing the client physics with a qc equivalent (seen SuperTraceWalk?) which can easily be altered to support stair-stepping in any direction you want, and water level stuff and all that jazz. Then again, I'm a DP freak, which obviously has much better support for these kinds of things. In any case it's clearly not the qc's fault, qc can do it just fine, even though the engine might not. I still consider only the visual part of things to be the problem. For example making the view turn upside down yet still handle your mouse input as you would expect as a player can be quirky, as you need to code matrix support in the qc and convert that matrix to euler angles for actual viewing. This is also completely possible, it's what the physics engine i mentioned does, does visual model calculations using matrices, which it then converts to euler for actual viewing of the model. Which totally makes me want an extension which gives support for matrices directly for angles...
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