Inside3D!
     

John Carmack on modding
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Inside3d Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
scar3crow
Inside3D Staff


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 837
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: John Carmack on modding Reply with quote

A quote from this interview with John Carmack brought up a point Ive gradually noticed over time, and one that has been illuminated by SantaClaws before.

Q14: Do you think that the MegaTexture technology will be accessible to mod teams? I’m making the connection there in terms of thinking of some of the smaller teams out there.

Answer: It doesn’t help them. In general, all the technology progress has been essentially reducing the ability of a mod team to do something significant and competitive. We’ve certainly seen this over the last 10 years, where, in the early days of somebody messing with DOOM or QUAKE, you could take essentially a pure concept idea, put it in, and see how the game play evolved there. But doing a mod now, if you’re making new models, new animation, you essentially need to be a game studio doing something for free to do something that’s going to be the significant equivalent. And almost nobody even considers doing a total conversion anymore. Anything like this that allows more media effort to be spent, probably does not help the mods.


So what do you guys think about this?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Entar



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 422
Location: At my computer

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Carmack wrote:
We’ve certainly seen this over the last 10 years, where, in the early days of somebody messing with DOOM or QUAKE, you could take essentially a pure concept idea, put it in, and see how the game play evolved there. But doing a mod now, if you’re making new models, new animation, you essentially need to be a game studio doing something for free to do something that’s going to be the significant equivalent. And almost nobody even considers doing a total conversion anymore.


That's why Quake 1 is so great. QuakeC is simple to learn and simple to use. The engine is open source, so you can do total conversions and package them standalone. Because of such, there's a great big Quake community, which makes it all the better. These things are what makes Quake modding so superior to making mods for Doom3, Half-Life(2) or UT2004.

JC's got it perfectly, only "in the early days" isn't the correct wording at all. People still mod Quake, and bully for us. Very Happy There's a reason for that too Cool
_________________
woh... feelin woozy... too much cider...
http://entar.quakedev.com
games fascination - My Game Development Blog/Journal
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
LordHavoc



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 243
Location: western Oregon, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entar wrote:
JC's got it perfectly, only "in the early days" isn't the correct wording at all. People still mod Quake, and bully for us. Very Happy There's a reason for that too Cool


Now if we'd all get together and make one uber quake mod and completely amaze id... Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Megazoid



Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Romero on modding.

http://rome.ro/2006/05/oblivion-re-rated-bad-news.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
scar3crow
Inside3D Staff


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 837
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LordHavoc pontificated:
Quote:
Now if we'd all get together and make one uber quake mod and completely amaze id... Smile


Hey, Ive been saying that for a while =)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
FrikaC
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 947

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megazoid wrote:
John Romero on modding.

http://rome.ro/2006/05/oblivion-re-rated-bad-news.html


Holy crap. That is absolutely absurd.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
CocoT



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 599
Location: Belly-Gum

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://rome.ro/2006/05/whose-side-am-i-on-anyway.html

I guess this post makes a little bit more sense
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Entar



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 422
Location: At my computer

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FrikaC wrote:
Megazoid wrote:
John Romero on modding.

http://rome.ro/2006/05/oblivion-re-rated-bad-news.html


Holy crap. That is absolutely absurd.

Agreed. I think what he "meant" to say is that retards who make stupid mods like that screw the games community they're supposed to be trying to help.
_________________
woh... feelin woozy... too much cider...
http://entar.quakedev.com
games fascination - My Game Development Blog/Journal
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
LordHavoc



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 243
Location: western Oregon, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entar wrote:
Agreed. I think what he "meant" to say is that retards who make stupid mods like that screw the games community they're supposed to be trying to help.


That they *want* to help, remove the supposed to, the "supposed to" has been the whole point of confusion that caused so much flaming about John Romero's first comments.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
FrikaC
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 947

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entar wrote:
FrikaC wrote:
Megazoid wrote:
John Romero on modding.

http://rome.ro/2006/05/oblivion-re-rated-bad-news.html


Holy crap. That is absolutely absurd.

Agreed. I think what he "meant" to say is that retards who make stupid mods like that screw the games community they're supposed to be trying to help.


I meant the ESRB is retarded.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Entar



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 422
Location: At my computer

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FrikaC wrote:
I meant the ESRB is retarded.

Oh, I meant the stupid modder(s) who did that(those) mods.

I also hate what he said here:
Romero wrote:
What's the point of this all this? That modders are now screwing up the industry they're supposed to be helping."

The heck? This is a gross generalization which is almost as bad as the one made by the ESRB saying that the game is worse just because someone modded it that way. Evil or Very Mad
_________________
woh... feelin woozy... too much cider...
http://entar.quakedev.com
games fascination - My Game Development Blog/Journal
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
FrikaC
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 947

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entar wrote:
FrikaC wrote:
I meant the ESRB is retarded.

Oh, I meant the stupid modder(s) who did that(those) mods.

I also hate what he said here:
Romero wrote:
What's the point of this all this? That modders are now screwing up the industry they're supposed to be helping."

The heck? This is a gross generalization which is almost as bad as the one made by the ESRB saying that the game is worse just because someone modded it that way. Evil or Very Mad


There's been nude patches for nearly every game that has been released in the past decade. I don't personally agree with it, but it's happened repeatedly for years. I don't think the modders are to blame for this, stupid or not their works stands by themselves.

Any kind of self censorship from the modding community is unfeasible (which is basically what you're saying the modders should have practised). If a certain mod CAN be done and there are any people out there that want it done, it will be done. Like Romero said this will probably force the game companies to move toward closing their content and actively trying to stop mods so they can maintain their ESRB rating.

Romero's comment is obviously emphasizing the ridiculousness of it, not placing blame.

The reason for this is obviously Hot Coffee and the political attention that got. The ESRB have gotten chicken and are worried about government interference. Congress is having trouble adapting to idea of content modification, so (for now, we hope) the ESRB are playing it safe.

In the end, we all lose. Mods will cease to be, future game makers will have no means to hoist themselves up by their bootstraps, etc. All, ultimately at the whim of some ignorant U.S. senators. If you live in any of their districts, don't vote for Evan Byah, Hillary Clinton or Joe Lieberman and tell your friends and family not to do the same. They're opressing free speech and killing the entire mod scene with this bull.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dr. Shadowborg
Inside3D Staff


Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 726

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to agree with Carmack's assesment. The problem is, is that there seems to be little interest on the part of commercial developers to actually help streamline, simplify, and ease creation of said media content. (See my previous post regarding my ideal of the ultimate FPS)

LordHavoc: Probably because deep down, we all know iD will never pay attention anyway... :/


ERSB and Legislative antics: Bush as usual got it all wrong. They hate us because of our politicians, our politicians hate us because of our freedoms. Ten years or so years ago, superbowl boobies probably wouldn't have raised much of a political stink. Nowadays though, with the multitude of high-horse hypocritical (often evangelical) busybodies who feel everyone should conform to their standards, coupled with soulless wealth and power obsessed political figures who are only too happy to oblige them as an excuse to gain even more wealth and power...

Well, with the road things seem to be going down, Civilization as we know it probably doesn't have much time left.
_________________
"Roboto suggests Plasma Bazooka."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrikaC
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 947

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of John Carmack's comments I'd like to say that to me, it doesn't really matter. The code aspect of making mods hasn't really gotten that much more complex (if you know the languages it is coded in). I could basically do what I do in modding for any game, if I really wanted to.

But yes, due to the scale and work required, making a total conversion is likely no longer feasible. And I agree with Shadowborg that they haven't made it exactly easy for modders.

I for one share Darryl Atchison's hope that Quake would usher in an era of 'toolkit' games, and though some titles have gone that way (Unreal and NWN spring to mind, both come with comprehensive editing utilities), far too many, especially from id's side of things have gone the route of less editability.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
LordHavoc



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 243
Location: western Oregon, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FrikaC wrote:
But yes, due to the scale and work required, making a total conversion is likely no longer feasible. And I agree with Shadowborg that they haven't made it exactly easy for modders.


This requires a long hard look at what makes developing TCs hard in old and modern games, I don't think it's as simple as "We have to make so many more pixels and polygons now!"

Come on, Quake modding was hell to begin with, just look at the sorry state of mdl making tools and quirky bsp map editors right now, Quake modding has never been easy, high poly or low poly doesn't matter, it's the tools that matter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Inside3d Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2004 phpBB Group