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Darkplaces-Izing Quake?

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:44 am Post subject: Darkplaces-Izing Quake? |

This is just a theoretical discussion. I've spent a few hours thinking about the DP dedicated thread and basically a few things come to mind. First of all, I think it is a real shame when years of effort have been put into something, but by quirk of fate it doesn't get used as much as it should be.
The short list of things that Quake *really* needs is the following:
- a server browser
- improved protocol
- map download (compressed, not uncompressed like QW)
- improved server with ability to communicate itself
All of this stuff exists, at least 3 of those in DarkPlaces and 4 if DP has map download.
One thing I know from being around players is that you can't control what engine they like. But the fact is, in multiplayer it is exclusively ProQuake, QRack, JoeQuake and DarkPlaces. FitzQuake gets used in single player by mappers. That makes 5 engines that are 98% of what players use.
ALL of those engines use unaltered protocols. That code probably has barely been modified from the original.
Is it possible to make a DarkPlaces patch that can be applied to ProQuake, QRack, JoeQuake and FitzQuake that uses the BEST DarkPlaces protocol that is still completely faithful to the original Quake as far as the feel goes?
If such a thing were possible, I am very confident that many -- if not nearly all -- server operators would want to switch to DarkPlaces dedicated if the above dream list could actually become reality.
All of those items have been in demand for years.

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leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1321 |

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: |

already done run darkplaces.exe wee. _________________

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: |

CheapAlert wrote:
already done run darkplaces.exe wee.

Players form their client preferences from what they like. Getting players to switch clients would be like trying to get a NetQuake player to switch to Quakeworld or vice versa.
An upgrade to their existing client with a big payback would be another matter entirely.
The big challenge in Quake has always been how to improve Quake without changing/altering the landscape. Quakeworld has all of those, but Quake never has and for no good reason.

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LordHavoc Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 243 Location: western Oregon, USA |

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: |

Doing that would still not offer many features to modders. I agree with it in principle though, it's one of the reasons that darkplaces has its entity protocol (and stats protocol in the case of dp7 protocol) in protocol.c, which is at least separated from the rest of the code for the most part, but still not at all easy to port to other engines I'm afraid.
Just for your information, the DP client plays as pretty much a 'dumb terminal', it only receives, and sends input, it has no special code for handling entities or stats, it just applies whatever the server tells it, and its input messages tell the server which packets were received, so all the fancy logic is in the server (resending entities/stats that were lost, limiting packet size, etc).
This means the server has significant leeway in how it decides to update things, a primitive dp7 entity/stat update writer could be implemented without too much trouble in other engines.
The client side is the easiest part of dp7 protocol because it only has to read updates (and optionally run player movement prediction if desired).
QW's entity protocol on the other hand is MUCH more complicated

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: |

LordHavoc wrote:
which is at least separated from the rest of the code for the most part, but still not at all easy to port to other engines I'm afraid.

I already knew that was coming when I started the thread. Usually ideas that sound too good to be true, usually are.

Quote:
Just for your information, the DP client plays as pretty much a 'dumb terminal', it only receives, and sends input, it has no special code for handling entities or stats, it just applies whatever the server tells it, and its input messages tell the server which packets were received, so all the fancy logic is in the server (resending entities/stats that were lost, limiting packet size, etc).

Which even to someone as engine coding illiterate as me, would derive that's the reason the client and the server are entirely different executables.
I have solutions to most of those (1-4) but they aren't as elegant as a built-into the client solution and all are very sub-optimal, but not too bad overall..
1. JoeQuake/QRack have built-in server lists capability (non-browser) at this point. Admittedly this leaves ProQuake out of the loop, DarkPlaces can't detect ProQuake servers and FitzQuake doesn't have an NAT fix (I hope Metlslime decides to do that at some point, at least for cooperative play).
Ironically, at least to some degree, the upside is that increases the value of the QuakeOne site server browser. Will help draw attention to some upcoming developmental releases.
A lot of development activity is going on behind the scenes, including the one that you, FrikaC, Lardarse and div0 have been so helpful with related to a cooperative server mod (it's outstanding).
2. Broadband pretty much negates protocol issues, except for dialup users. Still, I think of the possibilities of being able to run up the max player limit to well beyond 16.
3. Map download is probably the easiest thing to implement on a public server, but alas trying to get that into ProQuake is basically impossible since only the official one would work on cheat-free servers. Pretty much negated by good server management as well (don't change custom maps, pick more than you want and don't change it, heh).
4. At this point at least there aren't enough different public servers that are popular to merit worrying about automatic server detection.

Quote:
QW's entity protocol on the other hand is MUCH more complicated

I think I read something on the old Nexuiz board where you said "That code scares me."
It was an idea worth bringing up

Quote:
Doing that would still not offer many features to modders.

I keep asking where all these mods are and nobody ever tells me. I've heard of Transfusion, Nexuiz (no way!) and ... well basically someone needs to keep track of these ...
Baker: "Where is a list or what are some of these mods for DarkPlaces?"
* silence, crickets chirping *
I figure Lunkin's (spelling?) Journey is probably a DarkPlaces mod, I don't know if DarkMaster is done (I'll have to check on that) and there was a "movie" thing about zombies and a flashlight that kept getting turned off and on, but I don't know the name so how could I Google it?
I've enjoyed learning about all these things and finding out all the improvements in DP, like not needing null.spr for a lighting effect and the elimination of the 4 pixel width requirement.
Thanks for answering these questions.

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Dr. Shadowborg Inside3D Staff Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 726 |

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: |

Wazat's gonna have a cow when he hears that people have already forgotten about Galactix and Battlemech. Or rather he would, if he were around anymore. _________________ "Roboto suggests Plasma Bazooka."

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LordHavoc Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 243 Location: western Oregon, USA |

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:05 am Post subject: |

Baker wrote:
I keep asking where all these mods are and nobody ever tells me. I've heard of Transfusion, Nexuiz (no way!) and ... well basically someone needs to keep track of these ... Baker: "Where is a list or what are some of these mods for DarkPlaces?"
* silence, crickets chirping *
I figure Lunkin's (spelling?) Journey is probably a DarkPlaces mod, I don't know if DarkMaster is done (I'll have to check on that) and there was a "movie" thing about zombies and a flashlight that kept getting turned off and on, but I don't know the name so how could I Google it?
I've enjoyed learning about all these things and finding out all the improvements in DP, like not needing null.spr for a lighting effect and the elimination of the 4 pixel width requirement.
Thanks for answering these questions.

Here's a review of a few from last year's qexpo, but they're not all darkplaces related:
http://qexpo.quakedev.com/booths.php?tag=omegaphlare
Note there's a The Hunted Chronicles 2 also, but 3 was canceled
And I've recently been gradually putting together a list of games and mods... Here are the ones currently in my list (and I know it has some missing - especially ones without websites):
Nexuiz http://www.nexuiz.com/index.php?module=media
Zymotic http://www.alientrap.org/zymotic/
Quake 10 Year http://www.quake10year.com/
The Ascension of Vigil http://www.dcemulation.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=57434
Transfusion http://www.transfusion-game.com/
Netherworld: DarkMaster http://darkmaster.quakedev.com/eng/
Darsana http://darsana.ru1337.com/
The Hunted Chronicles http://thehunted.ru1337.com/
BattleMech http://static.condemned.com/bmech.shtml
Lunkin's Journey http://qexpo.quakedev.com/booths/ajay (TQ based but runs in DP)
OpenQuartz http://openquartz.sourceforge.net/
Nehahra http://www.planetquake.com/nehahra/nehindex.html
Obscurus http://www.planetquake.com/nehahra/obscurus/index.html
Prydon Gate http://www.inside3d.com/prydongate/
Defeat In Detail 2 http://elf.planetquake.gamespy.com/did2.shtml
Conquest http://static.condemned.com/conquest.shtml
Feral Flesh http://sourceforge.net/projects/feralflesh/
Marcher Fortress http://www.planetquake.com/quake1/features/lotw/sp-05-02-22.shtml
Several other mods can be found at these sites:
http://elf.planetquake.gamespy.com/mods.shtml
http://static.condemned.com/download.shtml
Last edited by LordHavoc on Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:58 am; edited 2 times in total

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:09 am Post subject: |

Re-transmitting that list shortly ...

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Entar Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 422 Location: At my computer |

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: |

Let's not forget dpmod - http://www.icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/ _________________ woh... feelin woozy... too much cider... http://entar.quakedev.com games fascination - My Game Development Blog/Journal

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leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1321 |

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: |

Also a few of my projects are very DP dependent, starting with Stalker from way back in 2001 (one of the first dp mod projects other than dpmod?) http://mods.moddb.com/251/stalker/ also i was working on these, but they all died in one way or another, however they did use dp
http://mods.moddb.com/2138/ww3-b0bzied/
http://mods.moddb.com/1893/gargoyles-quest-iii/
http://mods.moddb.com/4837/charlie/
http://mods.moddb.com/4793/stone-fang/
_________________

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: |

Entar wrote:
Let's not forget dpmod - http://www.icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/

Most people know of that one from the DarkPlaces page, as opposed to third party creations.

CheapAlert wrote:
Also a few of my projects are very DP dependent, starting with Stalker from way back in 2001 (one of the first dp mod projects other than dpmod?) http://mods.moddb.com/251/stalker/

Added to list: http://mods.moddb.com/251/stalker/

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