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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |

Granted the current gas grenade effect is useless for obfuscation, which is what he is looking for... I suspect he would be willing to accept something ugly but functional, at least to see if it aids the gameplay of CustomTF (I think it could, particularly if there was a check on sentries, where they couldn't pick up on people in the smoke (within proximity of the grenade while its active)).
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...and all around me was the chaos of battle and the reek of running blood.... and for the first time in my life I knew true happiness.

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: |

Ok, I knocked together a quick and ugly demo of the sort of thing that can be done. Here's a video. http://elf.planetquake.gamespy.com/gasgren.avi _________________ Apathy Now!

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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: |

Cheers to MauveBib for "knocking together" what I struggled with and failed horribly. I think that could make for a decent one, just with some sprite variation, slightly different shades and patterns... which could be done in just a few moments with about any image tool.
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...and all around me was the chaos of battle and the reek of running blood.... and for the first time in my life I knew true happiness.

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leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1321 |

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: |

you could do a counter-strike like version and make the grenade spray in a linear counter-clockwise spin

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OneManClan Joined: 28 Feb 2009 Posts: 62 |

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |

MauveBib wrote:
Ok, I knocked together a quick and ugly demo of the sort of thing that can be done. Here's a video. http://elf.planetquake.gamespy.com/gasgren.avi

Oh my f**king god!
That is BRILLIANT!!!!!!!! Stunning . Even better than I imagined it!!!!!! I had pictured it darker, more smoke coloured, but I think this is awesome. I actually find it a little scarey, because it reminds me of the blood scene in The Shining!
You're a Guru MauveBib.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you!
I am truly stunned. And it works well in an enclosed indoor area; I wonder how it would look in a bright outdoor area like the bridge of 2fort5.
Out of curiosity, how long did it take you to do? Also, you say this is 'quick and ugly', but to me it looks amazing - but then I'm old skool. I've started making a place for it in the new menu, so as soon as I get the final .qc file, it will be tested in-game asap. I can't wait!
thanks again,
OneManClan
ps I've watched the avi like 20 times, and will watch it again after I finish typing this!

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Electro Joined: 29 Dec 2004 Posts: 241 Location: Brisbane, Australia |

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: |

I think he likes it. _________________ Unit reporting! http://www.bendarling.net/

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:09 pm Post subject: |

OneManClan wrote:
I wonder how it would look in a bright outdoor area like the bridge of 2fort5.

I'll give it a go and record it.

OneManClan wrote:
Out of curiosity, how long did it take you to do? Also, you say this is 'quick and ugly', but to me it looks amazing - but then I'm old skool. I've started making a place for it in the new menu, so as soon as I get the final .qc file, it will be tested in-game asap. I can't wait!

Took most of an hour, almost all of which was spent making the sprite. The sprite could certainly be improved a hell of a lot, this was just a quick knock-up to test the theory. i'll have another go at a better one soon.
The code needs some refining, particularly a max sprite limit because multiple grenades will otherwise cause a crazy entity spam whch will cause slowdown.
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Apathy Now!

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:17 am Post subject: |

Ok, I spent a bit longer on it, and the results are a lot better. I made a new properly dithered sprite and tweaked around with the code a lot to get a much more cohesive cloud effect. Entity spam should be less of a problem too, since I made the smoke MOVETYPE_NOCLIP, so the server isn't slowed by constantly testing for collisions on each sprite, but this does mean that the smoke can go through walls, which I think is an acceptable compromise.
http://elf.planetquake.gamespy.com/smoke.avi
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Apathy Now!

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xaGe Joined: 01 Mar 2006 Posts: 329 Location: Upstate, New York |

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:21 am Post subject: |

Great job... looks good.

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OneManClan Joined: 28 Feb 2009 Posts: 62 |

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:30 am Post subject: |

MauveBib wrote:
Ok, I spent a bit longer on it, and the results are a lot better. I made a new properly dithered sprite and tweaked around with the code a lot to get a much more cohesive cloud effect.

Wow, it *definitely* looks more like smoke.
Thing is...... (don't kill me!) I think I've gone and fallen in love with your first version! The 'whiteness' of it was a complete surprise, and the grainy (undithered) explosions, and mini-particles floating around look amazing, like a snow cloud, and I dunno... it seems more 'fun' to look at than 'smoke'. So my 'first impression' is that this 'dark version' whilst more 'realistic', is less 'fun'. Maybe it was the viewing angle, and distance, or the fact that it was outdoors that exaggerated the difference. What do you think? Would it be possible to get a copy of both versions so I can test their 'look' in different maps and locations?

MauveBib wrote:
Entity spam should be less of a problem too, since I made the smoke MOVETYPE_NOCLIP, so the server isn't slowed by constantly testing for collisions on each sprite, but this does mean that the smoke can go through walls, which I think is an acceptable compromise.

Does this make the 'dark version' move differently that the white one?
Also, if the smoke can go through walls it means someone could 'exloit' this by (eg) 'smoking out' the top room in 2fort5 from the outside, by throwing them onto the snipers nest. There are no spam restrictions in AGR games, and players are expected to use every tool and trick in the book to cap, or prevent caps.
Re: which effect looks 'better', these are just my first impressions. Both versions serve their purpose well, so we're talking aesthetics here. Could white (or some other colour) be *better* than dark grey? Is a 'snow particle' effect 'better' than a smooth dithered dark cloud? White might look weird in dark rooms, otoh dark smoke in (already) dark rooms might be too dreary, and depressing.
I'll keep watchin' the vids, think some more, and await feedback.
thanks again,
OneManClan
Last edited by OneManClan on Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:46 am Post subject: |

OneManClan wrote:
These are just my first impressions; They both serve their purpose well, so we're talking aesthetics here. What 'looks better'. Could white (or some other colour) be *better* than dark grey? Is a 'snow particle' effect 'better' than a smooth dithered dark cloud? White might look weird in dark rooms, otoh dark smoke in (already) dark rooms might be too dreary, and depressing.

Well, it's up to you really, but I definately prefer the dithered effect myself, whether white or grey. The white would indeed look weird in dark coridors, since sprites aren't affected by lighting so are always fullbright.
However, I originally did it white, simply because that's generally the colour of smoke from real smoke grenades:
As I said though, I definately think the dithered style is the way to go, whatever colour of smoke is chosen. It's just so much more realistic, and looks so much more like real smoke than a weird ash sprayer. I'll probably give a white dithered look a try tomorrow. Annoyingly I can't just lighten the sprites easily thanks to the use of a pallette colour for transparency.
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Apathy Now!

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OneManClan Joined: 28 Feb 2009 Posts: 62 |

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: |

Note: For clarity, I'll refer to the first version of the smokescreen grenade as 'smokegren1', and the second version as 'smokegren2'.

MauveBib wrote:
Well, it's up to you really, but I definately prefer the dithered effect myself, whether white or grey. The white would indeed look weird in dark coridors, since sprites aren't affected by lighting so are always fullbright. However, I originally did it white, simply because that's generally the colour of smoke from real smoke grenades.

Wow, well there you go, I didn't know that. Let's stick to white then, like smokegren1.
I've been looking at the vid of smokegren1, trying to figure out exactly why I love it so much, is it the whiteness, the 'unditheredness', or the location, and way it was 'filmed'?:

5 -7 seconds: You can clearly see smokegren1 setting off little fast, multiple explosions - boom boom boom; like fireworks, awesome effect which I don't see in the smokegren2 vid, that could be the colour, rather than the dither... (?)
7 -14 seconds: The 'stuff' just looks alive, like it's talking over the room, you can see it swirling; quite terrifying and very 'Shining Blood scene' like. From where you were standing it looks like the gas cloud was coming towards you. Again, this might be the colour, though it might be the undithered 'chunks' of stuff which give the swirls detail.
16- 23 seconds: Now for the second throw, you get closer, standing IN the cloud, and yes, this is where smokegren1 looks more fake and 'spritey' ala Doom 1993. You're right of course, smokegren2 looks smoother up close, though it does has a pixellated / 'chicken wire' effect.
23 seconds - end: you back off a bit and it looks awesome again

Maybe it's because you stood closer, and more still in the Smokegren1 vid, and that's why the 'puffs' of smoke look more detailed. Maybe Smokegren2 only looks less 'alive', because there's less contrast between it's colour, and the background colour. Making smokegren2 white would give it more contrast, and hopefully more 'swirliness' from a distance, like smokegren1 seems to have.

MauveBib wrote:
As I said though, I definately think the dithered style is the way to go, whatever colour of smoke is chosen. It's just so much more realistic, and looks so much more like real smoke than a weird ash sprayer.

I suppose it's time I moved on from 'Doom' ..... memories ... *sniff*. I have no idea on what's involved w dithering, would it be possible to do a 1/2 dither? What would that look like? Disclaimer: I have no idea whether this is a simple 60 second 'setting change', or a 60 minute major f**king headache, so feel free to ignore this request.

MauveBib wrote:
I'll probably give a white dithered look a try tomorrow. Annoyingly I can't just lighten the sprites easily thanks to the use of a pallette colour for transparency.

Not sure what that is, but your brilliant efforts are very much appreciated!
OneManClan
ps. re: the 'smoke goes through walls' issue with smokegren2, is there a way around that, if it proves to make the gren too powerful?

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: |

OneManClan wrote:
I have no idea on what's involved w dithering, would it be possible to do a 1/2 dither? What would that look like? Disclaimer: I have no idea whether this is a simple 60 second 'setting change', or a 60 minute major f**king headache, so feel free to ignore this request.

Dithering means literally making every other pixel on the image transparent. There are 256 colour in the quake palette, and one of them (a pink colour) is used by quake to represent transparency. Standard quake has no way to do real semi-transparency, but by dithering (i.e. painting every other pixel on the sprite in the pink colour) you get a quite effective transparent effect, especially from afar. Unfortunately it's not really customisable, your only real options are "not transparent at all" and "50% transparent".
Since every other pixel must be painted pink to make it dithered, that means that editing the sprites is a major hassle, and I basicically have to start from scratch each time.

Quote:
ps. re: the 'smoke goes through walls' issue with smokegren2, is there a way around that, if it proves to make the gren too powerful?

It's a question of looks vs performance. There is an easy way round it, but it has a very noticable effect on server performance. For example, a smoke grenade that goes through walls drops my FPS from about 100 to about 60, and having say 5 of them drops my FPS to about 30. However, if the smoke doesn't go through walls, a single grenade will drop my FPS to about 30, and having even two on the level at the same time will drop it to about 8.
Essentially, if the smoke doesn't go through walls there has to be a limit that only one smoke grenade can be in use on the level at any one time, and even then there are definite performance hits.
Going through walls is definately the better option (and coincidentally the one used by Quake's normal particle effects such as the TF gas grenade anyway).
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OneManClan Joined: 28 Feb 2009 Posts: 62 |

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:22 am Post subject: |

MauveBib wrote:
<snip> Since every other pixel must be painted pink to make it dithered, that means that editing the sprites is a major hassle, and I basicically have to start from scratch each time.

Man, now I feel guilty for preferring smokegren1.. I tell ya, I've been watching the vid of smokegren1 over and over. Even though it doesn't look like 'smoke', the effect is amazing, more exciting than how I imagined it. I know you referred to it as 'ugly', and even though closeup you can clearly see the sprite, there's still so much going on, all that sparkly movement, it's just SO 'dramatic'; whereas smokegren2 seems a little dull in comparison. Hopefully the whiteness of the (upcoming) smokegren3 will capture some of the movement and excitement of smokegren1. Can't wait to see it! Btw, I can do some of the 'grunt work' for you if you like, if it's just a matter of going into photoshop and colouring every x pixel pink.

MauveBib wrote:

Quote:
ps. re: the 'smoke goes through walls' issue with smokegren2, is there a way around that, if it proves to make the gren too powerful?

It's a question of looks vs performance.
<snip>
Going through walls is definately the better option (and coincidentally the one used by Quake's normal particle effects such as the TF gas grenade anyway).

Fair enough, I'll leave this to your good judgment. I think limiting them to 'one at a time' is reasonable considering how powerful this weapon will be, for both offense AND defense.
Thanks again, and I'm (seriously) off to watch the vids AGAIN! (must be the 50th time!? )
OneManClan

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OneManClan Joined: 28 Feb 2009 Posts: 62 |

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: |

OneManClan wrote:
Thanks again, and I'm (seriously) off to watch the vids AGAIN! (must be the 50th time!? )

Must be up to 100 by now..
Every night, before I sleep, I close my eyes and fantasize about throwing one.
Can't wait to announce their debut at the Weekly AGR Sessions. And btw MauveBib, I was serious about my offer to help w the 'grunt work' pixel editing, if you've been busy. I'm no guru, but I made the AGR booth babe pic for Qexpo 2008.
standing by,
OneManClan
ps. off to watch them again.
pps No, I'm not joking !

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