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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: |

goldenboy wrote:
After this project, I really hope to map for a modern engine with reasonable tools that run on my fucking OS. These are pretty much the criteria I'll use to pick another game to create content for. Quake needs to get its shit together. I'm not asking for much.

Agreed.

Willem wrote:
You are, actually. If you're going to map/mod for Quake you're going to have to accept some hardships.

Willem, I understand where you are coming from.
But I reject that line of thinking.
The engine, the maps compile tools, the QuakeC compilers are all open source and the limitations are where we choose for them to be. Any open source community is one that deserves what it gets. I say let's deserve more!

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |

goldenboy wrote:
After this project, I really hope to map for a modern engine with reasonable tools that run on my fucking OS. These are pretty much the criteria I'll use to pick another game to create content for. Quake needs to get its shit together. I'm not asking for much.

Feel free to create such tools. Quake development is entirely fan-run, and as such I think has had a fantastic array of tools and such created. I can't think of any other game with such a variety of fan created applications.
Sure it's not up there with systems like the Unreal engines, which have great tools created by the original developers, but that's hardly surprising.
Given that all Quake tool development has been done by fans for their own love of the game, I think it's pretty offensive to slag that off for not being as good as a professional, paid project.
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MDave Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 75 |

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |

Quote:
After this project, I really hope to map for a modern engine with reasonable tools that run on my fucking OS. These are pretty much the criteria I'll use to pick another game to create content for. Quake needs to get its shit together. I'm not asking for much.

Blame the world for creating so many different computer architectures and operating systems!
Oh well, best solution to that problem is making the tools open source (that don't require platform specific libs), or Java based or something.

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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: |

Quote:
Whatever. I want to draw sprites in a sprite editor, please. Using some other app, then importing a picture is not my idea of a good workflow. I spent several hours trying to produce a fucking sprite, which I could have more productively used for mapping.

You would do better to look at the scope of the program, such as quick adjustments and file type support, not artistic endeavors. If it took you hours to notice the lack of artistic functions, or to ask someone, and in lieu of a response, invest your time more productively mapping, then that is your own fault. To be frank, most people use a third party app such as something by Adobe to create their images, and then they use the tools created by their project to import them into a form they needed.

Quote:
The Unreal Editor (UnrealEd) is a pure “What You See Is What You Get” content creation tool filling the void between asset creation tools like 3ds Max, Maya and XSI, and shippable game content.

They might as well have listed Photoshop, Illustrator and more in there, as the purpose of their suite is to take existing content largely, and make it into a format for use by the Unreal engine. You know, kind of like how GTKRadiant creates data files which can then be processed by a compiler into a form that is readable by the Quake engine.

Quote:
After this project, I really hope to map for a modern engine with reasonable tools that run on my fucking OS. These are pretty much the criteria I'll use to pick another game to create content for. Quake needs to get its shit together. I'm not asking for much.

See, I take into account what I'm planning to do when I make a decision regarding what OS to have on my computer. I've flirted with Linux before, but at the time being, XP is more useful for me, for what I use. When it comes to criteria for creating content, I personally look more towards something I want to create content for. Quake is interesting, unique, and flexible. Other games... not so much, at least to me.

Quote:
Quake 1 modding/mapping is very, very niche.

Not so much on OSX now, courtesy of your work, which is very cool, however I don't care for the general UI of OSX, and if I'm not comfortable in the base environment, I probably wouldn't be able to settle into the app.
gb;
In short, its your own fault for investing hours in an app used for enabling a workflow with fewer bugs (such as in adquedit), rather than investigating upon noticing that the program is a STEP in the workflow, rather than the beginning and the end.
I don't mean to be so harsh, but theres no need to blow your gasket over this; however most contemporary games still use a similar workflow. Just look at the Frontline awards from GamaSutra, every single art tool finalist was not made by a game company, and the game company developed tools to import that file as it exists in the 3rd party tool. FrikaC developed a tool for you to take your work in an art tool, and bring it into a format readable for Quake.
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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |

goldenboy wrote:
After this project, I really hope to map for a modern engine with reasonable tools that run on my fucking OS. These are pretty much the criteria I'll use to pick another game to create content for. Quake needs to get its shit together. I'm not asking for much.

Goldenboy, itemize the things that piss you off with as much detail as possible.
Idle conversation topics are fun, but actually kicking the ass of these problems so hard they fear to show their face again and flee in terror would be far more fun.
/FreeImage is a powerful weapon for the development of tools to solve problems related to 2d graphics.

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goldenboy Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 310 Location: Kiel |

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:00 pm Post subject: |

Willem: You're right, in a way. Which is why I'm kinda looking at other options (the logical thing to do, isn't it?) in my mind. I agree with Baker, though. Scarecrow: Fine, I accept your opinion. I didn't say that the other options must be commercial - there is open source, a lot of it. Otherwise, my opinion simply differs from yours.
Baker: Detailed itemizing - that makes me think of nailing a bunch of theses to a church door. I don't know, I can only take so much pain. If you look at where I'm coming from and what I want to do, most of the items in question should follow logically.
I deleted 90% of this post because I simply am tired of arguing. I also have to go and buy food now, and make something to eat. Bye.

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Willem Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 73 |

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: |

Quote:
I agree with Baker, though.

I do too, speaking as an idealist. . Speaking as a realist, some pain is inevitable as most Quake coders left in the scene are doing engine work and not working on tools.
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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:44 pm Post subject: |

Quote:

Willem wrote:
I agree with Baker, though.

I do too, speaking as an idealist. . Speaking as a realist

Realism sucks because it is very boring.

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mh Joined: 12 Jan 2008 Posts: 910 |

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: |

Let's get realistic, nobody is going to write a Photoshop (or even MSPaint) clone just for the purpose of creating and/or editing sprite files (or .lmp, or mips, or any of the other custom wacky Quake formats). The best bet would be a Photoshop or GIMP plug-in for handling .spr, but even then you'd have to wait until doing so scratched someone's particular itch. If you want short term return the best you'll have to settle for is something that works with pre-made images.
Realistic part II - you'll never get all engine coders and mod developers to agree on a single replacement format for sprites (or any other type of file for that matter). Everyone will always have their own ideas and will end up pulling in different directions. The ultra trads will bemoan the new format(s) and contend that .spr was perfectly fine, thank you very much. DarkPlaces (I think) has a format, but it hasn't exactly been widely taken up, at least outside of DP-specific work.
There have been efforts in this direction in the past with other things (anybody remember BSP 30? Heffo's texture format?) and - with the exception of LIT (probably because it was documented and some clever clogs *cough* wrote a tool to automatically light ID1 maps in colour) - they've all gone into limbo. Look at the protocol discussions as a classic example.
Hell, we can't even agree on which directory skyboxes should go in.
Anyway, I do seem to go on about this a bit, don't I?
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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject: |

mh wrote:
Let's get realistic, nobody is going to write a Photoshop (or even MSPaint) clone just for the purpose of creating and/or editing sprite files (or .lmp, or mips, or any of the other custom wacky Quake formats).

But it might just be possible that someone among us has written full-blown image editors in the past.
Maybe possibly using FreeImage ...

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Willem Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 73 |

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:45 pm Post subject: |

Quote:
Realism sucks because it is very boring.

Well, get on it dude. Start crankin' out them tools.
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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:45 am Post subject: |

Willem wrote:

Quote:
Realism sucks because it is very boring.

Well, get on it dude. Start crankin' out them tools.

First I need to eradicate my to do list which I have put under siege and I plan to storm that castle.

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MeTcHsteekle Joined: 15 May 2008 Posts: 397 Location: its a secret |

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:23 am Post subject: |

Baker wrote:

Willem wrote:

Quote:
Realism sucks because it is very boring.

Well, get on it dude. Start crankin' out them tools.

First I need to eradicate my to do list which I have put under siege and I plan to storm that castle.

i saw that list once in the beginning stages, that's a mighty stronghold
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Willem Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 73 |

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: |

Quote:
First I need to eradicate my to do list which I have put under siege and I plan to storm that castle.

And now we come full circle. Baker, meet realism.
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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: |

Willem wrote:

Quote:
First I need to eradicate my to do list which I have put under siege and I plan to storm that castle.

And now we come full circle. Baker, meet realism.

Realism, meet Baker

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