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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:51 am Post subject: The Chaos in the Nexuiz Community |

Either you know what this is about or not. Don't ask what it is about if you don't know, but feel free to read up so you know: http://alientrap.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6043 I really think what is going on is evil and a betrayal to the whole idea of FOSS.
Except that I believe that LordHavoc, who is has given so much to multiple communities in both code and education, deserves the best regardless of the circumstances.
I have to say I hope Console Non-GPL Nexuiz is a failure, but that the project benefits LordHavoc.
I think what is happening to Nexuiz is an abomination, at the same time I want LordHavoc to have all the success, achievement and happiness he can get as he has given so much.
/Ironically, this gives justification to private fears of certain mod authors that their work could be misused. I know R00k fears that the Clan Arena X source code could be warped by evil commercial interests. I also wonder about the community solution to avoid a Nexuiz-like problem with other FOSS projects.
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Downsider Joined: 16 Sep 2008 Posts: 478 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:18 am Post subject: |

I like the idea. Bringin' Quake to the box. Maybe I can run my own mods through a bit of reverse engineering! I'm not the kind of guy who understands indie game developer ideals, at least the ideals of those in this community. I mean, I develop for fun. What do you guys develop for? Fun != drama over a member graduating from the indie scene to "real" development.
Then again, I wasn't here in 1997.

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metlslime Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 177 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: |

hard to tell for sure from the guy's post, but it sounds like the engine will not be a branch of darkplaces but the main darkplaces project, meaning the engine source will obey GPL (since the SVN repository is public anyway.) If it's a branch we just have to make sure they release the source from their branch.
If the art and other content are all commercially produced (and it seems like they will be), then they are not bound by GPL.
The gamecode is the only thing that sounds a bit fuzzy there. If the nexuiz gamecode is GPL, and this game is based on that code, they will have to release that source too. It's hard to tell if they intend to do that.

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metlslime Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 177 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:51 am Post subject: |

Oh... having read more responses, it seems that they intend to violate the GPL after all and attempt to make a closed-source engine based on GPL code? That seems decidedly fishy. I saw a claim that they obtained a commercial license to the code from id software and lordhavoc, if this is true it must mean they think those are the only two copyright holders on the darkplaces code. Which could be possible if lordhavoc wrote 100% of the SVN commits and never grabbed code from other people or engines, i suppose.

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:51 am Post subject: |

metlslime wrote:
hard to tell for sure from the guy's post, but it sounds like the engine will not be a branch of darkplaces but the main darkplaces project, meaning the engine source will obey GPL (since the SVN repository is public anyway.) If it's a branch we just have to make sure they release the source from their branch.
If the art and other content are all commercially produced (and it seems like they will be), then they are not bound by GPL.
The gamecode is the only thing that sounds a bit fuzzy there. If the nexuiz gamecode is GPL, and this game is based on that code, they will have to release that source too. It's hard to tell if they intend to do that.

The source was licensed from id Software and LH. It will not be GPL (this is stated).
That's fine and I don't have any issues there. That's totally legal and there aren't even any true ethical issues there.
I have issues with hijacking the Nexuiz name as it becomes property of a commericial venture.
This leaves the Nexuiz community in a strange limbo, their name stolen and the reputation of the work usurped.
Nexuiz is a "free and open source first person shooter". Well, not today it isn't.

Downsider wrote:
I like the idea. Bringin' Quake to the box. Maybe I can run my own mods through a bit of reverse engineering! I'm not the kind of guy who understands indie game developer ideals, at least the ideals of those in this community. I mean, I develop for fun. What do you guys develop for? Fun != drama over a member graduating from the indie scene to "real" development.
Then again, I wasn't here in 1997.

Someday, you will be the ONE. But not today You need to drink and eat your fill of the feast of real-life before you know where your value system is. It comes with time. And with your intelligence, it certainly will come. But you'll need to be 7-10 years older Indie is where the heart is. You are arrogant, and this is good ... because you are arrogant in a great way, not in a lame way.
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Downsider Joined: 16 Sep 2008 Posts: 478 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:03 am Post subject: |

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:19 am Post subject: |

I just don't believe what is going on is right. I've expressed my opinion in the thread. For those that are interested ... http://alientrap.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6043 I think this is an injustice in the making. But more than that, I believe it can be done in the right way without trying to steal the name "Nexuiz" from the contributors to the community.
Nexuiz was a community effort.
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Error Inside3D Staff Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 558 Location: VA, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:40 am Post subject: |

The Chaos in the Nexuiz Community Leave it there _________________ Inside3D : Knowledge Is Power Darkplaces Documentation Wiki

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Error Inside3D Staff Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 558 Location: VA, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:00 am Post subject: |

Disclaimer: this post may make you hate me I am a large supporter of open-source. I'm a bigger supporter of people from this community really making it in the business. I think it's amazing that people are STILL getting recognized for... basically Quake mods. Yes, they had to step on a few toes to get there, but congrats to LordHavoc and Vermeulen. Sorry to those whose toes have been stepped on.
I've been reading up on all the happenings resulting from the choices that they made, since it was announced. Yes, it may be quite sketchy. Yes, almost the entire Nexuiz community is pissed, probably beyond repair. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm definitely not a Nexuiz player, or even a Nexuiz contributor.
Most people aren't even complaining about the code being used, as I'm quite sure it's the only asset they are using from the GPL Nexuiz. Most people are whining about the name. Now, keep in mind, I only said whining about the name. I don't consider them to be "whining" about the code. I believe they have every right to complain about the code. If I worked on a project for a long time, and someone decided to make a profit from it, then I'd be pissed.
I do truely feel sorry for everyone that worked on this great game... but honestly, what can you do? They seem quite set in stone. The deals are done. The money has been spent. Yadda Yadda Yadda.
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Last edited by Error on Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total

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Error Inside3D Staff Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 558 Location: VA, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:01 am Post subject: |

I'm sorry... did you just delete your own posts before I could finish reading them while clarifying my own statements? _________________ Inside3D : Knowledge Is Power Darkplaces Documentation Wiki

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Error Inside3D Staff Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 558 Location: VA, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:15 am Post subject: |

as a point of reference... this same sort of thing arose when the game Laser Arena was sold. It used a ton of GPL released code from... I believe it was TomazQuake and a few others. _________________ Inside3D : Knowledge Is Power Darkplaces Documentation Wiki

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Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:33 am Post subject: |

Error wrote:
I'm sorry... did you just delete your own posts before I could finish reading them while clarifying my own statements?

I deleted my posts because they weren't very fair to you.
I am rather upset at the moment because I've always viewed Nexuiz as a model GPL project and I just don't think it is right what is happening.

Quote:
[quote="Error"]Disclaimer: this post may make you hate me

Not possible. I favor all sincerely-held viewpoints including ones that I don't agree with.
That being said, I don't disagree with yours.
LordHavoc has given plenty; I want him to receive.
What I object to is the damage done to the Nexuiz community by usurping the name. It is hurting those contributors to the community. The closed source community --- casual dumb console gamers --- don't know wtf Nexuiz is and it isn't a hot property among the drones.
There is no reason to damage the feelings of those who have contributed to Nexuiz over the years, either in the form of mapping or textures or modeling or forum moderation (like esteel) or coding (like div0) for the mindless console drones who don't even know what Nexuiz is.
Threatening the established community property of Nexuiz and that community is wrong.
The only good that can come of this is that future such projects learn from this to kill such fears in advance or adopt policies that prevent this kind of problem.
Commercial is not bad. But there is absolutely no reason that "commerciail Nexuiz" couldn't have open source media. What is wrong is commercial media exploiting a GPL project to its detriment and harm to the community.
I'm sorry but I've always viewed Kedhrin Gonzalez as a mega-fail. All I need to do was watch his PlanetQuake video to back in 2006 to know he is a whiney boy loser with no core moral values but with plenty of selfishness and self-rightousness. Is this is a personal attack? Well, yes because of the self-important attitude which is the core moral failure that dominates the current environment ... not becase the current moral failure leads to success but because it leads to opposite but naive wet noodles don't see that far down the road because they are noobs.
He is an absolute loser in the same ballpark as other such ego-manics that shall not be named.
This is quite a bit of damage to the free and open source community for some mega-fail's console project to fail.
Too much information? Possibly?
The truth? Well, only the future knows that answer.
Let's watch. The one sure thing: damage is being done to the loyal Nexuiz community.
Did loyal Nexuiz contributors ever do anything to get f&&&ked over? Not in a fair world. And maybe the world isn't fair, but maybe the idea of a fair world is worth fighting for.
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Spike Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 944 Location: UK |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:27 pm Post subject: |

I've not read the ps3/other console licensing details, but if your project is GPLed, its incompatible. This much I know. I'm sure LH has audited DP multiple times in the past, and is sure of the origin of all contributions. He has mentioned wanting to license many times in the past. There's no issue there, so long as all the contributers are notified and accept it, or their contributions are removed from the proprietry branch.
With that said, there are 4 other sorts of contributors.
1: Content creators (maps/textures/sounds/etc).
2: QC Coders.
3: Play-testers.
4: Forks.
1: From the sounds of it, content creators will have their efforts duplicated. Like many of the community here do with commercial offerings like Halo or Halflife2.
2: Not sure what they're going to do with the gamecode. If LH is going to work with them on the engine changes, chances are they're going to end up supporting QC still. Not sure about PS3 licensing requirements, if they do port it all over to C, they may kill off the existing QC code entirely, and rewrite from scratch.
3: Play testers are unaffected for the most part. Consoles have different input methods. If the game is to be balanced on the new platform, weapon balance will need to be adjusted anyway. Much of the work that these guys have provided will be replaced entirely.
4: Forks will remain GPLed. This is completely unaffected. Forks may benefit from any engine changes that are brought over from the engine.
So really, if anyone does find their work used, go right ahead and sue. :)
My personal feeling is that changing all the content and gamecode and everything and not changing the name is wrong. But the name and branding is not owned by the community, its owned by the creator. This is evident in, eg, firefox licensing (hence why its called iceweasel in debian).
If they do reimplement everything (except for the engine) then it deserves a new name, even if its Nexui2, or NexuizWorld...
Sorry, but at the end of the day, the branding is not owned by the community. With that said, previously branded goods should not be rebranded.
Yet how many people do you know that call Quake by the name Quake1, and Quake3 as Quake?
/me says nothing about NetQuake.
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frag.machine Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 728 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:12 pm Post subject: |

metlslime wrote:
hard to tell for sure from the guy's post, but it sounds like the engine will not be a branch of darkplaces but the main darkplaces project, meaning the engine source will obey GPL (since the SVN repository is public anyway.) If it's a branch we just have to make sure they release the source from their branch.
If the art and other content are all commercially produced (and it seems like they will be), then they are not bound by GPL.
The gamecode is the only thing that sounds a bit fuzzy there. If the nexuiz gamecode is GPL, and this game is based on that code, they will have to release that source too. It's hard to tell if they intend to do that.

Not exactly:

tundramagi wrote:

Lee_Stricklin wrote:
Simply put: THIS IS A GPL VIOLATION. SOMEONE WILL SUE YOU.

It is not.
They licensed the engine from both ID software and Lord Havoc and crew so they could use it w/o the GPL.
They licensed the maps and textures they wanted from the authors (to what I've heard) so they could use it w/o the GPL.
They didn't license nor the quake C game code I assume and are making their own game code (I assume).

So, apart from the QuakeC uncertain part and the name issue, I don't see a big deal here.
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avirox Joined: 16 Aug 2006 Posts: 109 |

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject: |

I think -z-'s first post in that thread pretty much sums it up. That nexuiz is going non-GPL I could care little for.. but it's about the fact that nexuiz has been by and large developed by the community, and it seems like they had little/no say.
Does anyone remember nexuiz 1.0? Quite frankly it was crap. No movement prediction, terrible performance, crappy models, etc. The community lent their input and ideas, and artistic and coding support to make 1.5 and beyond playable. Hell, I even worked on Nexuiz, though I don't feel my contributions are really anything significant in the light of what everyone else has done.
Now it's true that LordHavoc has done the most significant work on nexuiz along with div0, straightening out a lot of the engine and QC issues, but I can see why the community would be annoyed at this closed doors agreement. Perhaps they could have at least polled the community beforehand to gauge their reaction.
Anyhoo, /rant

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