Index | FAQ | Search | Memberlist | Usergroups | Profile | Log in to check your private messages | Log in | Register

Carrying the football ... Goto page 1, 2 Next

| Inside3d Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion

View previous topic :: View next topic
Author | Message
--- | ---
Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: Carrying the football ... |

The Quake community is dying, but it is only because it is not available for sale at a decent price (or at all) ... (For those that do not know, the ID Software store is down. Last time it was down, it was down for almost a year. Meanwhile, it is, largely true, that it is impossible to buy Quake. They do not sell it for $5 in the bargain bin or do Quake Gold 1,2,3 and 4 packs for $60. As a result, there can be no newbies. No newbies = Quake is dead.)
I have some questions, if I may ....
#1 How hard would it be to take the standard single player progs.dat and translate the entities ...
Enforcers
Fish
Hell Knights
Vores
Spawns
Shub
... that are in pak1.pak (registered Quake), in any map into some equivalently interesting sustitute monster?
Or ...
#2 Do good substitutes for these monsters exist in Open Quartz?
And I really don't care about spawns or the shub, but are there decent substitutes for fish, vores, enforcers or hell knights?
------
For the unknowning, here in a couple of weeks a distribution of FreeQuake will start getting a push and it is perfectly good for multiplayer as it will be using 100% custom maps on the servers.
Pak0.pak has all the multiplayer components, the play is identical and the play will mostly be on custom maps.
But the single player component will need a translator OR substitute models.
In the former case, the translator would be a progs.dat that converted unavailable monsters in custom maps to an appropriate substitute OR appropriate equivalent models of existing pak1 elements to avoid the problems.
Are either of these possible?
---
"Thru strength, virtue. For there is no honor in losing if one's cause is just."

Back to top |

Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: |

Let me add a #3 in ... #3 How hard to modify a progs.dat to make EVERY "end of level" teleporter return to a map named "START"? Why? Because I think there needs to be a "greatest single player maps" pack that includes, say, 50 really good standalone maps and a single entrance map that allows you to see screenshots of the maps and then pick one to play (only for maps where the author's readme.txt does not preclude this).
Btw ... the main reason I feel comfortable here to ask you guys these things is that Scarecrow has told me you all really care about Quake a great deal.
"If you build it, they will come" --- Field of Dreams
Baker

Back to top |

Lardarse Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 243 Location: Bristol, UK |

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |

Baker wrote:
#3 How hard to modify a progs.dat to make EVERY "end of level" teleporter return to a map named "START"?

Very easily...

Code:
void() trigger_changelevel = { self.map = "start"; InitTrigger (); self.touch = changelevel_touch;
};

LA
Edit: Forgot a fucking semicolon again...
Last edited by Lardarse on Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

Back to top |

Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |

Lardarse wrote:

Baker wrote:
#3 How hard to modify a progs.dat to make EVERY "end of level" teleporter return to a map named "START"?

Very easily...

Code:
void() trigger_changelevel = { self.map = "start" InitTrigger (); self.touch = changelevel_touch;
};

LA

Could you also code it so it would EXCLUDE the start map from that override? (The start map will have 50 teleporters, 1 to each map).
And then compile it and post a link, kind sir?
I am dangerous around QuakeC and it this would take me 2 hours and I would still manage to screw it up, plus I wouldn't use the best compiler options and the final progs.dat would be a bloatful 1400 KB.
I think I shall be completing my gateway map tomorrow, for you have inspired me. Thanks.
(I still need answers for #1 and #2 for whoever would be so kind.)

Back to top |

Lardarse Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 243 Location: Bristol, UK |

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |

Bugger, I forgot that the start map goes nowhere QuakeC doesn't bite. The largest progs.dat I know is only 801kb (dpmod) and LordHavoc put a shitload into that... Typically it will be around 400kb. If you can get anywhere near an IRC client, then look for []Lardarse on either Anynet, Quakenet, or ETG, then I'll happily answer your questions...
LA

Back to top |

leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1322 |

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Carrying the football ... |

Baker wrote:
#2 Do good substitutes for these monsters exist in Open Quartz? And I really don't care about spawns or the shub, but are there decent substitutes for fish, vores, enforcers or hell knights?

openquartz just only has no ogre yet.
the largest progs.dat was Stalker which was my compilation mod and it hit a megabyte going really unstable. It was so big, all of the original Quake monsters had to be scrapped and replaced by a "StalkerGrunt" which was a beef modified soldier with new weapons and random skin appearances.
_________________

Back to top |

Sajt Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 1028 |

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:23 am Post subject: |

BloodMage was pretty big too IIRC, not sure if it was a meg though _________________ F. A. Špork, an enlightened nobleman and a great patron of art, had a stately Baroque spa complex built on the banks of the River Labe.

Back to top |

FrikaC Site Admin Joined: 08 Oct 2004 Posts: 947 |

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:50 am Post subject: |

The legality of distributing the 'best standalone SP maps' has to be called into question though. Most maps for Quake use standard id textures and what you're talking about is essentially a seperate game. id gave special permission early on for map authors to include id textures in their maps (because the id design of the bsp format included the textures automatically anyhow) if the product was not sold and the maps were explicitly for Quake. As a result in some of the innumerable 'rip-off' CDs that gathered up maps posted on public file archives, ended up mass replacing the id textures with gaudy substitutes so id would not confer their legal wrath upon them. I guess the rip off CD makers didn't worry too much about the actual map authors though.
The legal woes of the Quake 1 BSP format were intended to be fixed in Quake2 by seperating out the textures into the wal format. For your intended application though, I'd reconsider harvesting maps and throwing them into a compilation. It goes without saying to at least contact the map authors.
On the question of the startmap thing, just open up client.qc, find the function void() GotoNextMap = , in the body of the function, near the top, add these two lines:

Code:
if (mapname != "start") nextmap = "start";

OpenQuartz rather disgusts me (in this context). The style is definitely not Quake. I applaud Galbraith Games for the work they've done (I know they're big fans of Prydon Gate, so I don't want them to feel as though I hate their work, on the contrary, it's a great little beginning to a standalone game.) However, I'm not much of a fan of the 'happy' atmosphere they've created in Open Quartz. It's great in OpenQuartz, but when people suggest it as a free alternative to the Quake content, I cringe. To see OpenQuartz monsters in Quake maps is just sacreligious. They say they never liked the gritty Quake atmosphere and I must completely disagree, the Quake atmoshpere is the thing that makes Quake Quake and makes Quake 3 definitely not Quake. Anyway, moving on..
I have often contemplated making a quick mod, using some of the Free Model Project weapon models, some maps of my own making using free textures, FrikBots and a multi-game mode progs.dat (Holy Wars, CTF, etc), that would become a GPL/Free Deathmatch game. Nexuiz sorta beat me to it though.
On the topic of FreeQuake, the legality of that is an unknown. id software repeatedly said in the past "Please do not make mods or maps that work with the shareware version", but this was ages before the code release, and at a time when that 'rule' was enforced by the engine itself. To achieve the the goal of making something work with the shareware, one would have to circumvent the engine via a crack, which was against the EULA anyway. id never made this request to the community in any sort of legal manner, it was merely just their wish, adressed to the community, that we should not to give away content to non-paying customers.
However, one must face the reality that now it is completely trivial and perfectly legal for an engine author to remove the shareware/registered validity check from the engine (in fact, for the purpose of standalone games such as Nexuiz, this is basically required). Which in turn enables the end user to download Quake Shareware and a custom engine seperately which does not have the shareware check. (Note: It MUST be seperately, and it MUST be the original quake106.zip or the platform equivalent, to modify the Quake Shareware distributions is strictly against the license provided (See SLICENSE.TXT part 3, clauses a and e, which deny you the right to make a derivative work or to modify the 'software' in any way and part 6, which declares you must keep the distribution a whole)). The end result is a modified Quake install that can run custom maps / TCs / etc, despite id's informal request to the community that we don't allow that. The key here though is it's upon the shoulders of the end user to make the assembly of the id pak0.pak and the new engine, and upon so doing they break no conditions of the license.
All this legal talk is really kind of moot though. id software is unlikely to go after anyone for a minor infraction of the shareware license or *really* care about the textures stored in the BSP files, the game is now so old and as you pointed out, they no longer are making any money off it whatsoever. The point I guess I'm trying to make is FreeQuake is treading in a gray area here.
Last edited by FrikaC on Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total

Back to top |

Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:36 am Post subject: |

FrikaC wrote:
The legality of distributing the 'best standalone SP maps' has to be called into question though. Most maps for Quake use standard id textures and what you're talking about is essentially a seperate game. id gave special permission early on for map authors to include id textures in their maps (because the id design of the bsp format included the textures automatically anyhow) if the product was not sold and the maps were explicitly for Quake. As a result in some of the innumerable 'rip-off' CDs that gathered up maps posted on public file archives, ended up mass replacing the id textures with gaudy substitutes so id would not confer their legal wrath upon them. I guess the rip off CD makers didn't worry too much about the actual map authors though.

Well, most maps use some ID textures but we don't think of mappers as criminals for distributing their fine creations.
As for the debate of the technical issues regarding the FreeQuake ...

Quote:
id software repeatedly said in the past "Please do not make mods or maps that work with the shareware version", but this was ages before the code release, and at a time when that 'rule' was enforced by the engine itself.

I think this paragraph in the letter open sourcing Quake supercedes that:
"I will see about having the license changed on the shareware episode of quake to allow it to be duplicated more freely (for linux distributions, for example), but I can't give a timeframe for it. You can still download one of the original quake demos and use that data with the code, but there are restrictions on the redistribution of the demo data. "
John Carmack is saying that there are distribution issues if you make something that uses pak0.pak, but is saying you can use the shareware data with the code. I don't see any other interpretation of that.

Quote:
Note: It MUST be seperately, and it MUST be the original quake106.zip or the platform equivalent, to modify the Quake Shareware distributions is strictly against the license provided (See SLICENSE.TXT part 3

FreeQuake is broken into separate downloads. The first download installs all the shareware files, nothing more than that and includes all of them. If for some reason that was found to be in conflict with one of the EULAs ... and, btw, I don't believe it is ... an installer could be written to download the shareware zip in original form and be written to work

Quote:
The end result is a modified Quake install that can run custom maps / TCs / etc, despite id's informal request to the community that we don't allow that. The key here though is it's upon the shoulders of the end user to make the assembly of the id pak0.pak and the new engine, and upon so doing they break no conditions of the license.

The other alternative:
Write a letter to ID Software and see if they would make some sort of public license of pak1.pak that permits the development community and the player community to survive.
I mean, how many millions of hours have gone into the development of Quake by coders/mappers and such?
If ID Software wanted to get overly technical, they would sue PlanetQuake for distributing maps and other files that include copyrighted ID Software texture data because PlanetQuake makes money off of displaying advertising on all the download pages.
But, I guess what I am saying, is that I don't feel FreeQuake is in any legal gray area because of John Carmack indicates that you can make use of the Quake demo data (shareware) in the letter announcing the open sourcing of Quake.
Additionally, the shareware EULA indicates it is totally permissible to redistribute the shareware bundle as long as it is done via electronic means, free and in a compressed format.

Back to top |

FrikaC Site Admin Joined: 08 Oct 2004 Posts: 947 |

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: |

Baker wrote:
Well, most maps use some ID textures but we don't think of mappers as criminals for distributing their fine creations.

Exactly, and why we don't is specifically mentioned in my post, in the part you quoted no less:

FrikaC wrote:
id gave special permission early on for map authors to include id textures in their maps (because the id design of the bsp format included the textures automatically anyhow) if the product was not sold and the maps were explicitly for Quake.

It is also somewhat stated in the LICINFO.TXT file (I'd quote the relevant section in the rlicense.txt file, but it's become a casualty of me deleting all the extra text files I had building up in my Quake folder, I'm only citing the Quake shareware files because I downloaded the original today to back up what I was saying) :

Quote:
-- If the map/utility contains id data (other then the id code John Carmack released to the world) it cannot be sold. The registered version end-user license will give you the limited right to develop maps/utilities that use id data...this limited right does not include
the right for anyone to sell anything that includes id data
(other then the id code John Carmack released to the world).

Baker wrote:
I think this paragraph in the letter open sourcing Quake supercedes that: "I will see about having the license changed on the shareware episode of quake to allow it to be duplicated more freely (for linux distributions, for example), but I can't give a timeframe for it. You can still download one of the original quake demos and use that data with the code, but there are restrictions on the redistribution of the demo data. "
John Carmack is saying that there are distribution issues if you make something that uses pak0.pak, but is saying you can use the shareware data with the code. I don't see any other interpretation of that.

Carmack was saying that he wants to get the shareware episode under new terms so it can be distributed seperately and in modified archives and forms, so it could be included with a GPL built version of the engine. This has yet to happen however. He's suggesting (in the part highlighted in yellow by you) that you could do exactly what I suggested, download the demo (shareware version) and combine it with a GPL engine yourself.
The part of my message you quoted is almost completely unrelated to this topic. I was saying that custom maps and mods (mods meaning game mods (QuakeC code) - in other words custom content) was specifically requested to not work with the shareware version by id software. Actually, I originally said it was an 'informal request', turns out I was wrong. Looking through LICINFO.TXT included with the Quake Shareware package it says:

Quote:
CANNOT DO: -- Run the game with user developed levels.

And further down it says

Quote:
3. THE SIMPLE RULES REGARDING THE SALE OF USER DEVELOPED QUAKE LEVELS AND/OR UTILITIES: -- User-developed/user-modified maps & utilities can only work with the registered version. (Just to be crystal clear on this point: user-developed/user-modified maps & utilities cannot work with the
shareware version of Quake.)

I was reiterating these points of the license, even though I didn't think they put it into actual terms. He said in the source release statement that we can use custom engines (or more specifically engine ports, e.g. to Linux) on the shareware episode, but I do not take that as a blanket reneging of custom map/content rule. He's, again, merely stating it would be possible, and not against the rules for the end user to download Quake shareware in it's original unmodified package then use a GPL Quake engine to launch it. As I said though, I really doubt they care either way.

Baker wrote:
FreeQuake is broken into separate downloads. The first download installs all the shareware files, nothing more than that and includes all of them. If for some reason that was found to be in conflict with one of the EULAs ... and, btw, I don't believe it is ... an installer could be written to download the shareware zip in original form and be written to work

I believe it does. As it is a repackaging of the Quake Shareware content. The EULA (SLICNCE.TXT) says it must be whole and in it's original unmodified form. But you're correct, an installer could very well do that.

Baker wrote:
The other alternative: Write a letter to ID Software and see if they would make some sort of public license of pak1.pak that permits the development community and the player community to survive.

You mean pak0, pak1 is the registered content. id would never go for a public license (E.g. GPL) for the shareware content because they'd lose creative control over all the data. It'd be great for us, but lawyers hate that sort of thing.

Quote:
I mean, how many millions of hours have gone into the development of Quake by coders/mappers and such? If ID Software wanted to get overly technical, they would sue PlanetQuake for distributing maps and other files that include copyrighted ID Software texture data because PlanetQuake makes money off of displaying advertising on all the download pages.

Come now. Displaying ads on a downlaod page and making money off a work aren't exactly the same thing, despite how much I would really like to see that happen . Making money means selling the content for profit. Advertising makes profits for PlanetQuake, but there's no exchange of money from the person downloading the file to PlanetQuake and so under no definition is it a 'sale'.

Baker wrote:
But, I guess what I am saying, is that I don't feel FreeQuake is in any legal gray area because of John Carmack indicates that you can make use of the Quake demo data (shareware) in the letter announcing the open sourcing of Quake.

John Carmack is not a lawyer and what he said was not a legal validation of using whatever you want from the shareware episode anyway you damn well please. What he said was you could use this code (the GPL quake source) with the original Quake shareware under the current EULA, if you do as he and I both stated. He did not say you were free to ignore the EULA of the Quake shareware. He suggested you could download it seperately in it's original unmodified form and use it with the provided code to get Quake on linux.
He also said he was trying to get the shareware episode under a less restrictive license. He did NOT say he had done it and to pass around the party favors. To my knowledge, the shareware episode has not yet been relicensed.

Quote:
Additionally, the shareware EULA indicates it is totally permissible to redistribute the shareware bundle as long as it is done via electronic means, free and in a compressed format.

Section 6 does indeed say this. This is a standard statement for shareware, basically permitting you to post the file wherever you like, unmodified. This statement doesn't invalidate the rest of the EULA at all.

Back to top |

Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: |

Not to promote a probably overly technical conversation, but the shareware license agreement is also dated June 21, 1996 and forbids a great deal of things that if interpreted narrowly, would forbid projects like Nexuiz that run custom maps.
Some of the license agreement is superceded by the GPL release for sure, while other parts, I feel, are superceded by the letter by John Carmack explaining the intent and limitations of the release.
I mean, the drivers and DLLs and some of the other fun things required to make Quake work weren't GPL'd so I'd think technically a great many derivative projects like Transfusion can't meet that standard. At least as far as I know.
These are good points to take into consideration. And interesting look at the issues that Quake's future hold.
I might send an email to ID Software and try to get some opinions on some issues in comparison to other projects and see if I can get some guidance for where the lines exist.
Last edited by Baker on Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:59 am; edited 2 times in total

Back to top |

FrikaC Site Admin Joined: 08 Oct 2004 Posts: 947 |

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: |

I just want to add I'm probably the worst one for talking about following the EULA to the letter, since I'm guilty of many many infractions of copyright laws, EULAs and whole bunches of stuff. My mod Star Wars: Dogfighter could get me sued 19 ways to Sunday if George Lucas & co. was a little more attentive.
However, on the topic of FreeQuake, OpenQuartz and the like, part of the goal of such projects is, or should be, to do everything legally. If we didn't care for the legality of it, then posting the full registered version of Quake would be a great shortcut, but that is blatantly illegal.
I agree that John Carmack's statement that he'd like to get the shareware episode under a freer license means that if the issue ever came up, id would likely never persue the person for not distributing shareware episode precisely by the terms of the EULA, when the violation is a mere technicality, really.
However, my position is that if you're trying to be perfectly legal, you're still treading...well not a gray area, but an off-white one. I guess a bigger issue would be that logo and screenshot:

Quote:
4. Use of Other Material is Prohibited. Use, in any manner, of the trademarks, such as Quake(tm) and the NIN(r) logo, logos, symbols, art work, images, screen displays or screenshots, sound effects, music, and other such material contained within, generated by or relating to
the Software is prohibited.

Back to top |

Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: |

Frika I agree. It is a little bit of an offwhite area. My intent is good and I want to do everything legally. EULAs, if strictly intepreted, forbid everything. Same with trademarks. About the only engine without the word Quake in it is Dark Places.
Btw ... if you have a sense of humor:
First, if you have a sense of humor, heh ..

Quote:
THIS AGREEMENT SUPERSEDES ALL PRIOR ORAL AGREEMENTS, PROPOSALS OR UNDERSTANDINGS, AND ANY OTHER COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN ID AND YOU RELATING TO THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THIS AGREEMENT.

I fully agree the shareware license agreement supercedes ALL *PRIOR* oral agreements and understandings.
I'm sort of joking around and sort of not, in the sense that I feel that my interpretations are reasonable. This did make me think of another issue, maybe the set cannot be called FreeQuake. It may need renamed. ZDaemon and SkullTag ... Doom II derivatives ... don't use the name Doom in them.

Back to top |

lth Joined: 11 Nov 2004 Posts: 129 |

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: |

Wow, screenshots are an infraction??? I wonder how many other games have a similar clause. _________________ randomviolence - tactical combat boardgame

Back to top |

Baker Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1538 |

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: |

Quote:
4. Use of Other Material is Prohibited. Use, in any manner, of the trademarks, such as Quake(tm) and the NIN(r) logo, logos, symbols, art work, images, screen displays or screenshots, sound effects, music, and other such material contained within, generated by or relating to
the Software is prohibited.

Yeah, they might sue my homepage then I'm in deep trouble. Screenshots of Quake galore.
Check it out --> http://s91840528.onlinehome.us/
... or your clone of "Qake" .. hehe.
Just kidding around
Last edited by Baker on Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:07 am; edited 2 times in total

Back to top |

Display posts from previous:

| Inside3d Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion | All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2004 phpBB Group