Inside3D!
     

Why are the ammo boxes in .bsp?
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Inside3d Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Nash



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 95
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Why are the ammo boxes in .bsp? Reply with quote

I notice that the ammo boxes and stuff are in .bsp instead of the usual .mdl model format like the other stuff in game. Why is that? Was there some kind of technical limitation that required them to be that way when Quake came out?

It just doesn't make sense to me. :/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Preach



Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Why are the ammo boxes in .bsp? Reply with quote

I think there are two parts to it. One was that they needed to be boxes, as a box is very low polygon, freeing up polygons for the monsters and other important things.

This leads them to rely on the texture to make them look good. The problem was that the only skinning technique that was possible with the tools and the q1 model format was a two-sided planar map. If you just did that on a model the textures would look stretched and distorted on some or all sides. Bsp models on the other hand are very easy to align textures on, so they worked well for a simple geometric shape like a box.

Now we have better tools for models, so there are ways of making properly unwrapped models in mdl format(with a few compromises). I've made a model called pickup.mdl for quoth2 which combines all the ammo and health pickups into a single alias format model. It's not 100% identical to the bsp models - for example half a pixel on each edge of each face is cut off because of the way quake rounds skin vertices. But it's easily close enough to pass for the originals, and gets lit according to how it's placed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
leileilol



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1322

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

collision, and the fact they can glow in the dark this way

The armor was going to be a bsp box too, but this was cut
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sajt



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 1028

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also the bsp models get semi-perspective-correct texturing in software engines, so they don't look nasty up close or when they're half clipped off the edge of the screen.

Dunno why they *really* did it though... it's pretty crazy how you can use bsp models as models...
_________________
F. A. Špork, an enlightened nobleman and a great patron of art, had a stately Baroque spa complex built on the banks of the River Labe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chris



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main purpose was being able to clip against bsp hulls for more precise collision.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Sajt



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 1028

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What collision? They just use bboxes (with weird off-centre mins and maxs)...

Another thing about mdls in software engines is that they are drawn with some pretty sketchy rounding, and something sitting on the floor will often seem to wiggle around when you move your view. So something non-organic looking like a big box, would look a lot more solid as a bsp model..

I think the bsp ammo boxes turned out a lot snappier than they would have looked as mdls, even if they were pre-lit.
_________________
F. A. Špork, an enlightened nobleman and a great patron of art, had a stately Baroque spa complex built on the banks of the River Labe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chris



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In some of Carmack's dev diaries he compares the Quake1 bsp models versus the same in Quake2 tech. How previously it was preferred to use the bsp bmodel inside of a map for weirdly sized objects. One of the downsides was the lighting was always off he later explains. In Quake2 it no longer uses bsp hull clipping for bmodels like this, but you can still assign a bbox to those items, instead its only used for things like doors, elevators, etc.

also, they use SOLID_TRIGGER, not SOLID_BBOX Sajt.

There were only a few possible hulls in q1bsp, I assume akward shaped objects like the short but fat medkit or the rocket pickups were best using a bsp for it's unique collision properties rather than the few existing ones made for the player, grenades, shambler, dog etc?

I'm not entirely sure the relevance of it, but this is from his own personal accounts of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
frag.machine



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 728

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO there is another important factor: Quake was a rushed-thru-the-door game. Surely it was easier to just slap some textures to single polygons and call them "medikits" or "rocket boxes". Remember, Quake's game design and artwork is completely incoherent at best.
_________________
frag.machine - Q2K4 Project
http://fragmachine.quakedev.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
scar3crow
Inside3D Staff


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 837
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Remember, Quake's game design and artwork is completely incoherent at best.

As a sum of its parts, eh maybe. But if you look at the progression of weapons, monsters, they are solid. The artwork as well is really quite good, just representing different agendas and goals. Never mind that much of the level design is downright brilliance when it comes to flow, player purpose and escalating challenge and creativity. Something most games do not even think about.

Off topic, but yeah.

I always figured the pickups were bsp rather than models because they didn't want to make a small box of shells a single point, a large box of nails the size of a player, and a box of rockets the size of a shambler... Yay limited hulls.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Urre



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 1073
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scar3: that's not related, really, since entitiy collisions can be any size already. Because of the FL_ITEM flag they're already much larger for clients attempting to pick them up, afaik pretty much shambler hull size. And like Chris said, they're not even using their bsp size, but rather a qc specified size
_________________
Look out for Twigboy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jim



Joined: 05 Aug 2005
Posts: 400
Location: In The Sun

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this changes the subject a bit, but I've been wondering about what are these hull sizes?
_________________
zbang!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dr. Shadowborg
Inside3D Staff


Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 726

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jim wrote:
Maybe this changes the subject a bit, but I've been wondering about what are these hull sizes?


From DEFS.QC

VEC_ORIGIN = '0 0 0'
VEC_HULL_MIN = '-16 -16 -24'
VEC_HULL_MAX = '16 16 32'
VEC_HULL2_MIN = '-32 -32 -24'
VEC_HULL2_MAX = '32 32 64'

In engines and maps that do not support custom hull sizes, these values are the sizes allowed to collide with the world. (i.e. point size, player size, shambler size)

You can set the size via setsize to whatever you want, but unless your engine and map used supports custom hull sizes collisions against the world (walls, etc) will always be bound to these three sizes. Entity to entity collisions however will adhere to whatever your setsize was.
_________________
"Roboto suggests Plasma Bazooka."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
daemon



Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sajt wrote:
Another thing about mdls in software engines is that they are drawn with some pretty sketchy rounding, and something sitting on the floor will often seem to wiggle around when you move your view. So something non-organic looking like a big box, would look a lot more solid as a bsp model..

I think the bsp ammo boxes turned out a lot snappier than they would have looked as mdls, even if they were pre-lit.


I think this is the exact reason.
_________________
-daemon [ daemonforge.org ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Urre



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 1073
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I understand it, that only happens when mdl's animate. Tomaz made a pack which replaced the bsp ammoboxes with mdl equivalents, and they looked generally a lot better thanks to lighting stuff. Don't recall any vertex swimming
_________________
Look out for Twigboy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
FrikaC
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 947

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frag.machine wrote:
IMHO there is another important factor: Quake was a rushed-thru-the-door game. Surely it was easier to just slap some textures to single polygons and call them "medikits" or "rocket boxes". Remember, Quake's game design and artwork is completely incoherent at best.


Says you.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Inside3d Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2004 phpBB Group