Index | FAQ | Search | Memberlist | Usergroups | Profile | Log in to check your private messages | Log in | Register

Many existing Frikbot waypoints are rubbish...

| Inside3d Forums Forum Index -> Artificial Intelligence

View previous topic :: View next topic
Author | Message
--- | ---
Lightning Hunter Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 61 |

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: Many existing Frikbot waypoints are rubbish... |

I hate complaining, but I've been looking at my collection of existing waypoints for the Frikbots released by various authors, and I'm sorry to say that most of them are terrible. After looking through a lot of maps for just a matter of 15 minutes, I've seen powerups the bots can't obtain, buttons they don't use correctly, ladders they don't go up, simple pathways they get stuck in, Wind Tunnels they get trapped in, jumps they can't make corretly, basic lifts that aren't set correctly so the bots don't wait for the platform, etc.. Do these artists even test their waypoints before releasing? I may as well be playing the Reaperbots with the way the Frikbots behave on some of these maps.
I'm considering going back and improving a lot of the existing waypoints after doing more of my own maps from scratch. I don't know why some of these waypointing artists do such an incomplete job. Shadowborg, if I upload improved waypoints to the resource cube, would you be willing to update the old ones? How would I go about doing this?

Back to top |

xaGe Joined: 01 Mar 2006 Posts: 329 Location: Upstate, New York |

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:49 am Post subject: |

..I can't tell you enough how great your contribution to the Frikbot way points are. I'm sure those previous ones made where done by people at the time just trying to get the bots to play maps better then not using any way point files. You also seem to have a knack for making these!

Back to top |

Lightning Hunter Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 61 |

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: |

Thanks. I'm not trying to put down the previous people who worked on waypoints, because I do appreciate the effort. I wish there were more people than just me working on waypoints right now. I would be willing to teach all the little tips and tricks I know for anyone who would be willing, but I'm not sure there is anyone like that.
I'm glad people are enjoying my waypoints.

Back to top |

Dr. Shadowborg Inside3D Staff Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 726 |

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Many existing Frikbot waypoints are rubbish... |

Lightning Hunter wrote:
I'm considering going back and improving a lot of the existing waypoints after doing more of my own maps from scratch. I don't know why some of these waypointing artists do such an incomplete job. Shadowborg, if I upload improved waypoints to the resource cube, would you be willing to update the old ones? How would I go about doing this?

No problem, just upload 'em and I'll see about getting them updated. (do make a note though when posting them that they are an update to an existing wayfile)
(haven't had time yet to check out your latest ones, been busy in RL and doing some Mapping when I do have time)
/me whistles innocently while sneaking quietly away from the dma5-10 and q1edge wayfiles he made...
Incidentally, in a bit of totally unrelated self-p1mpage here's a map I did during one of the prior qexpos with a wayfile made by FrikaC that isn't really well known here:
http://tlb.quakedev.com/files/drsdm1.zip
http://tlb.quakedev.com/files/drsdm1_ways.zip
It's not the greatest map in the world, but I thought you might want to take a look at it just for kicks. It's actually pretty embarrassing compared to what I'm working on right now (SP map for hellsmash, I'll probably see if I can make it work for dm as well too.)
Also, this is a map FrikaC did that I enjoy playing as well: (I've been planning on doing a remake of this map for the longest time but haven't been able to get around to actually doing it.)
http://www.inside3d.com/frikbot/maps/frikslo5.zip
The wayfiles of the above two maps don't need to be looked at, they're just a couple of lesser known maps to play for fun when you've got time. (and to help in pointing out maps that do have FBX waypoints for your collection...)
_________________
"Roboto suggests Plasma Bazooka."

Back to top |

Lightning Hunter Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 61 |

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Many existing Frikbot waypoints are rubbish... |

Dr. Shadowborg wrote:
(do make a note though when posting them that they are an update to an existing wayfile)

Haha, don't worry about that... You are talking to a guy that once sent out 30 e-mails and made a 5,500 word text file for a project that included map conversions of people's works in order to give proper credit (note: I won't e-mail the authors for something as simple as modifying waypoints, but I will give credit).
I always put in the wayfile itself who originally made it, as well as a note in my first post.

Quote:
/me whistles innocently while sneaking quietly away from the dma5-10 and q1edge wayfiles he made...

I checked the waypoints of q1edge out of curiosity. The bot I followed around had a bit of trouble jumping up the crates to obtain the red armor, and fell off a few of the narrow ramps, but it looked like you did a good job other than this. You should do more waypoints someday!
Out of curiosity, I have a question for you regarding waypointing. When you built waypoints for those few maps, did you ever add a test bot in editing mode, teleport him to a specific waypoint, and order him to a hard to reach spot to see if he can make it? I do this for every complicated section of a map as I add waypoints, and am curious if anyone else has done it. Perhaps I'm the only one?

Quote:
Incidentally, in a bit of totally unrelated self-p1mpage here's a map I did during one of the prior qexpos with a wayfile made by FrikaC that isn't really well known here:

Actually, I did already manage to obtain a copy of that map, believe it or not! I rummaged the net quite a bit before making waypoints, because I wanted to make sure I didn't do anything that was already done.

Back to top |

Dr. Shadowborg Inside3D Staff Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 726 |

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Many existing Frikbot waypoints are rubbish... |

Lightning Hunter wrote:
I checked the waypoints of q1edge out of curiosity. The bot I followed around had a bit of trouble jumping up the crates to obtain the red armor, and fell off a few of the narrow ramps, but it looked like you did a good job other than this. You should do more waypoints someday!

Thanks for the compliment on the q1edge wayfile, it's probably not as fancy as it could be in terms of trickjumping, but other than that I thought that it did pretty well in terms of allowing the bots to navigate that map to a decent degree.

Quote:
Out of curiosity, I have a question for you regarding waypointing. When you built waypoints for those few maps, did you ever add a test bot in editing mode, teleport him to a specific waypoint, and order him to a hard to reach spot to see if he can make it? I do this for every complicated section of a map as I add waypoints, and am curious if anyone else has done it. Perhaps I'm the only one?

You're not alone in doing this. I actually did that quite extensively in those maps, particularly in the dma5-10 sets. It really is the only way to make sure they can get around the map properly.
_________________
"Roboto suggests Plasma Bazooka."

Back to top |

Lightning Hunter Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 61 |

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Many existing Frikbot waypoints are rubbish... |

Dr. Shadowborg wrote:
You're not alone in doing this. I actually did that quite extensively in those maps, particularly in the dma5-10 sets. It really is the only way to make sure they can get around the map properly.

Yeah, I agree. Sometimes I wonder if these other waypointing creators even test their bots this way, or at all. I've seen some waypoints in which the bots have a 0% chance of successfully navigating. Why even bother if they won't use it right?

Back to top |

Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Many existing Frikbot waypoints are rubbish... |

Lightning Hunter wrote:
Yeah, I agree. Sometimes I wonder if these other waypointing creators even test their bots this way, or at all. I've seen some waypoints in which the bots have a 0% chance of successfully navigating. Why even bother if they won't use it right?

Probably because they turned on auto-waypointing, played through the map, and exported. Or they entered the editor, waypointed the map as best as they could manage, and submitted what they had. Most people (myself included for a long time) thought that was how it was done. It's not a matter of malevolent laziness, just that people don't understand just how well frikbots can navigate a map when it's done properly. Most of us don't know how to accomplish that... Someday I need to look into the fb mapping tools. The demos that FrikaC once showed me, even the early stuff, had me amazed at how well the frikbots could find their way around a level that had been properly waypointed.
I really need to download all of these properly waypointed maps and start playing Quake DM occasionally again. It's been too long, and it would be nice to play on more than dm1-6 for a change. Jeht and Ace of Nails call to me.
_________________
When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.

Back to top |

Lightning Hunter Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 61 |

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: |

I understand that most people probably don't have the patience I have with bots, but I'm sure they could learn it much easier than they realize. The advanced tricks do take a little bit of learning, but once you've got a situation down one time, you can do it everytime.
Take a button lift, for example. I spent about 30 minutes trying to get the bots to properly use the first one I ever came across. Once I figured out the right setup and the correct AI Flags to use, the rest of the button lifts from then on were easy. I now just follow the same pattern for all button lifts, and it only takes me 15 seconds to set one up.

Back to top |

scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: |

Quote:
When you built waypoints for those few maps, did you ever add a test bot in editing mode, teleport him to a specific waypoint, and order him to a hard to reach spot to see if he can make it? I do this for every complicated section of a map as I add waypoints, and am curious if anyone else has done it. Perhaps I'm the only one?

As far as I know, I've not released any waypoints, but I did make them once for... ultrav? One of those very popular dm maps, red brick, lots of rockets... Anyways, yes I tested the bots via those methods, I even got the bots to ramp jump up to a quad, using the precision flag and a carefully placed jump flag. I was very pleased with the result.
I've never attempted to get them to understand traps, plats, doors or buttons however.
_________________
...and all around me was the chaos of battle and the reek of running blood.... and for the first time in my life I knew true happiness.

Back to top |

Display posts from previous:

| Inside3d Forums Forum Index -> Artificial Intelligence | All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2004 phpBB Group