Index | FAQ | Search | Memberlist | Usergroups | Profile | Log in to check your private messages | Log in | Register

"Pro" (mis) Features Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next

| Inside3d Forums Forum Index -> Gameplay & Design

View previous topic :: View next topic
Author | Message
--- | ---
jim Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 400 Location: In The Sun |

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:34 am Post subject: "Pro" (mis) Features |

I'm kinda annoyed of them. You know.. strafe running/jumping to get more speed, rocket jumping, etc.. And so I've been thinking of removing all that shit from my mod. I want to be aware of all these misfeatures. So let's make a list of them... I'll start with the ones I'm aware (some may not be part of quake, but I have encountered in other games). Maybe also suggestions on what to do with some of them, how to remove them.
1) Strafe running/jumping to get more speed
2) Bunny jumping (pretty much the same as 1, but this could happen anyway without speed boost)
3) Rocket/Explosion jumping
4) Tap fire button to fire faster (was found in avp2 with couple weapons)
5) Powerups (& Better Weapons/Items) that spawn in the same location at regular intervals
6) Getting into places you're not supposed to be by using some really thin brushes, people would really fall from them
---
I think that's all I can think of now. My solutions to them...
1) Limit player movement speed, strafe+forward doesn't make player move faster.
2) Limit player jump interval, no instant jumping after landing, stamina, stumble to ground if jumping too much...
3) I think this would happen, but the explosions should give more damage and if the explosion didn't kill the player, then player gets so much velocity he will hit some wall so hard that it will kill him.
4) If this happens, then there's something wrong with the game code...
5) Randomize the powerup spawn time, maybe have multiple locations the powerup can spawn. Randomize where it spawns, possibly spawning them nearer the player that hasn't used the powerup earlier or has less kills than someone else.
6) Make them fall down if standing on a too thin brush, unless player is using some climbing mode
_________________
zbang!

Back to top |

Willem Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 73 |

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:36 am Post subject: |

Honestly, I think you're over thinking this. Removing all of that stuff from your mod would pretty much ensure that nobody would play it. Quake is so established at this point that changing the rules radically isn't going to lead to a lot of new players, IMO. You may want Quake to be more realistic, but realistic is the one thing that Quake isn't.
That's just my opinion but a lot of the things you want to remove are the things that caused certain players to get interested in the first place. I remember when rocket jumping was discovered and how great it was. And things like random spawn times on powerups is just going to lead to pro players ignoring your mod.
_________________
www.wantonhubris.com

Back to top |

Supa Joined: 26 Oct 2004 Posts: 122 |

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject: |

To be honest, I'm very disappointed with how prevalent this anti-pro attitude is becoming in gamedev communities now. You've failed to realise that every "misfeature" you listed is another way to keep a player interested in your game. Everything you've listed qualifies as a game fundamental from their respective games - something that a player must spend time to practise in order to improve, hence they'll spend more time playing your game.
Removing or otherwise attempting to sabotage these fundamentals *will* result in a poor base for your game. And no matter what additional features you add, so long as you have a bland fundamental base there will be very little room for a player to improve in - and thus there will be very little incentive to keep playing.

Back to top |

jim Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 400 Location: In The Sun |

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: |

Well, my mod is going to be a total conversion, so.. Quake's just the engine... It's also more singleplayer, but still I want to remove this stuff. It doesn't mean players can't move at unrealistic speed and jump really high and long.. I want winning need real skill, not knowledge on how to smash your input devices to perform better.
Camping! That's another problem. I think I can't erase it completely, but hopefully you can't camp a specific weapon/item. I thought that each weapon spawn location can spawn any weapon, similar logic with everything else.
There could be some limits on how many items of specific type can be spawned at the map. Like only allow spawning of 1 superhealth at a time (different maps/gamemodes could have different limits), if it's already spawned somewhere in the map and it's time to spawn some health item, then spawn some lesser health item.
If it troubles that the superhealth (and other bonuses) are spawned at random locations.. The game could give some information to all players where it is spawned.
If you're real pro, then you can survive against anti pro things...
_________________
zbang!

Back to top |

Supa Joined: 26 Oct 2004 Posts: 122 |

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: |

Quote:
Well, my mod is going to be a total conversion, so.. Quake's just the engine... It's also more singleplayer, but still I want to remove this stuff.

I know. I'm still irritated at how this attitude is spreading, however.

Quote:
I want winning need real skill, not knowledge on how to smash your input devices to perform better.

Execution is a skill. Practiced and clean execution != Mashing inputs.

Quote:
If you're real pro, then you can survive against anti pro things...

Then why should someone spend time surviving such a game when they can play and improve in something else?

Back to top |

jim Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 400 Location: In The Sun |

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: |

Supa wrote:

Quote:
Well, my mod is going to be a total conversion, so.. Quake's just the engine... It's also more singleplayer, but still I want to remove this stuff.

I know. I'm still irritated at how this attitude is spreading, however.

Pros are a minority. World is full of amateurs. So which one you think is the better market for games. Also I'm making this game for me and possible other people who are like me in this. So maybe it's not for you then, but maybe you try it when I've got this stuff done.

Quote:

Quote:
I want winning need real skill, not knowledge on how to smash your input devices to perform better.

Execution is a skill. Practiced and clean execution != Mashing inputs.

Don't take it literally

Quote:

Quote:
If you're real pro, then you can survive against anti pro things...

Then why should someone spend time surviving such a game when they can play and improve in something else?

Antipro things don't mean you can't improve your skills. Then it's some other skills you improve than the usual smashing your input devices in practiced and clean manner.
_________________
zbang!

Back to top |

leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1321 |

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:08 am Post subject: |

Supa wrote:
To be honest, I'm very disappointed with how prevalent this anti-pro attitude is becoming in gamedev communities now.

I don't play like this, but this is the reason why I lose (and why the online scene is pretty sparse no matter how many desperate shady shareware quakeworld bundles are sent to cheat fodder to raise their frag totals up). Unfair, and i'm sick of it. It's the online gaming equivelant of performance-enhancing drugs. Games that don't cater to abused 'low detail' cvars (why do these serious gamers "use FX5200s", and "laptops" for excuses I do not know) are often called the worst games ever by them.
I know their whining ruined Quake 4 in patches to decheat the ambientlighting cvar (disables all shadows and lighting so their shitty fx5200s can run it at 20fps). Quake 4 has been virtually dead since.
Cater to these guys and your game is a graveyard of whiny unfair.
_________________

Back to top |

Spirit Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 476 |

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: |

leileilol wrote:
I don't play like this, but this is the reason why I lose (...)

Bullshit. I played like that for a long time. Then I switched back to textures and I do not suck more (not that this says much).
And why does QW not have many players because of this when Q4 apparently is dead because it was disabled?
---
Except for #4 I too find those ideas bad. Especially if your goal is a singleplayer game I would let players play how they want instead of locking them in. One thing I really dislike in Doom3/Quake4 is the crawling speed of movement. Those listed things are learned skills not cheats in my opinion.
And item control is pretty much THE important thing in multiplayer. If it is unfair than your map is unbalanced.
_________________
Quake Maps

Back to top |

jim Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 400 Location: In The Sun |

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: |

What kind of that kind of stuff you can do with Darkplaces in netgames? Or are the cvars that make it look something like that disabled in netgames? _________________ zbang!

Back to top |

LordHavoc Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 243 Location: western Oregon, USA |

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: "Pro" (mis) Features |

Having given a lot of thought to this subject in the past, I figure I should give some suggestions on how to do this (the debate of pro/not pro is not one I choose to partake in).

jim wrote:
1) Strafe running/jumping to get more speed

Nexuiz 2.5 has some cvars that show how this can be done, the
sv_airaccel_sideways_friction cvar has the biggest effect on it - this cvar causes the intended velocity (wishvel) to also rot away perpendicular motion, so you change direction more firmly (you lose your other motion) when airborn, note this cvar only exists in the Nexuiz QuakeC code.
However the same issue does apply when on the ground, so there is more to this.
In normal quake (netquake) the sys_ticrate defaults to 0.05, which makes it very hard to do air accel tricks (to the point that people mostly gave up on it - they only work in QW), but zigzagging on the floor still works to gain some speed (up to 40% higher than sv_maxspeed).
Increasing sv_friction has a very significant effect on these tricks.
Which is why Nexuiz 2.5 has higher friction and higher acceleration, it's more rigid that way.

jim wrote:
2) Bunny jumping (pretty much the same as 1, but this could happen anyway without speed boost)

Easiest solution (although it won't show up right in movement prediction) is to impose a time limit on how often you can jump (like self.jump_finished = time + 2; in the jump code in the QuakeC).

jim wrote:
3) Rocket/Explosion jumping

This is trivial, just reduce the velocity push in the T_Damage code.
Or increase it as you say, you can find code for velocity damage in Nexuiz, it applies damage when velocity changes significantly in one frame (this has the effect of falling damage as well as hitting a wall too hard causing damage).

jim wrote:
4) Tap fire button to fire faster (was found in avp2 with couple weapons)

Quake has never had this.
As for the games that do have it, it is intentionally coded, usually for semi-automatic pistols, it's also common in some arcade games.

jim wrote:
5) Powerups (& Better Weapons/Items) that spawn in the same location at regular intervals

Quake2 and Quake3 gamecode supports spawn cycles on items - where an item cycles through multiple choices (for example alternating between a quad and a red armor), I don't know the specifics of how this was implemented.
Quake3 maps override respawn times on items very frequently, it was touted as a core feature of the game, to let level designers break up pattern running (however I do think pattern running is an important part of deathmatch, so I can't say I agree or disagree on this).
Basically, items in Quake3 are often tweaked.

jim wrote:
6) Getting into places you're not supposed to be by using some really thin brushes, people would really fall from them

You mean walking on narrow ledges, light fixtures, etc? One way to do this is the way done in Jedi Knight - add some velocity to the player when a traceline below their origin does not find ground, sliding them toward the hole underneath them.
I don't know if Jedi Knight did this intentionally or if it simply used capsule-based collision detection rather than box-based, either way it caused you to slide off of ledges and fall when your origin was over the edge.

Back to top |

Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: |

"Pro" players come in several flavors, from the overt cheaters who modify their graphics and other settings to give them an unfair edge (which I firmly agree is the gamer equivalent of doping) to the players who exploit quirks and bugs in the game to give them the edge.
While tweaking settings is something I consider to be an artificial form of professional playing (if the player was a good player, he wouldn't need to "cheat"), there is something to be said for things like rocket jumping and strafe jumping. Many mappers (such as Mr. Fribbles, I believe) actually regard these as integral features to the game and community now, and build their use into their maps. Rocket jumping and bunnyhopping are challenging skills to master, especially when you're in battle or in a pinch and need to act on reflex. That's worth something, at least.
The problem comes in when players are able to circumvent challenges in single player that they were supposed to face (20 minute map done in 30 seconds), which is frustrating for the mapper, or they're able to almost completely nullify the checks and balances of the game's intended physics (for example, bunnyhopping to negate player speeds in team fortress), which is frustrating for the modder. In either case, you're not playing the game the way it was intended to be played. It's like playing a game of tag where instead of running up and touching players, you just have to toss a ball at them.
Whether or not the new incarnation of the game is better than the intended one is a matter of great debate. Old skills are replaced with new, potentially more challenging ones; the rules of the game change and may be more fun or less; and the rift between casual players and pro players widens dramatically.
I personally think rocket jumping is *really* cool, and I love opportunities to use it. I really should get better at it. However, it's a serious problem for a mapper who doesn't want the player zipping through the entire map with an RL and a couple of health boxes. Now the mapper has a very severe constraint on how he can craft his map -- areas that could be rocket-jumped to must now be blocked in some way, or he has to re-design the map to not include such areas. The mapper has the option of giving deliberate RJ destinations to the player, but he also has to be very aware of where the "feature" could be abused by that same player. Some mappers snidely reply that any good mapper can creatively mitigate the damage by doing X or Y, and that any real mapper should embrace rocket jumping -- only losers and posers would dare complain. However, I assert that RJs and many other "pro" exploits can be a serious problem for a mapper who designed the map to be played a certain way, and I simply cannot blame them for wanting to remove the exploit so that he doesn't have to completely rework, or scrap, his level.
If you've played Left4Dead, imagine if clients could set a setting in the console that would remove the stun effects of damage. Now, when a zombie hits a player, his movement doesn't slow. Instead of having to turn and deal with the zombie, he can just run past, and he can escape swarms before they engulf him. This allows him to play very differently from before, and I'd call that a potential game breaker. Now imagine that players figure out that if they tap jump just right, they can get out of the grasp of a smoker or hunter instead of relying on their teammates to free them. Again, it's a serious exploit that radically changes how the game works for the players, and as far as we know it was absolutely unintended by the developers. L4D is usually played cooperatively, so one player exploiting such things might not hurt the fun for the other players... quite as much. However, imagine playing in Versus mode. If the player is able to escape from other players that are hunters and smokers when he's not supposed to, even if it takes skill to do it, he's just used a cheat to get an edge. The game is designed so that once a hunter or smoker disables you, your allies have to save you or you die. Now the player is able to completely break that mechanism and disable the infected team's ability to take him down with hunters and smokers the way they were intended to, and because his client-side setting lets him keep running when a zombie damages him, he can run away immediately before the hunter or smoker and common infected buddies get another chance to swarm him or take him down. The way the game was designed to work is now broken. That hurts in multiplayer... that hurts a lot.
And the big problem with multiplayer is when one player starts getting an edge using exploits, everyone has to follow suit to keep up (much like drugs in sports/Olympics), or the game must be patched to remove the exploit. Quake never got patched for bunnyhopping etc, so it became a part of the culture. For better or for worse, the community is forever changed and expects these features, even if more fun and more balanced games could be made without them. Many pro players refuse to try a mod/game that doesn't exactly follow the rigid Q1 formula they're used to. And if they do try it, they first promise to not enjoy it... like trying a new food when you've decided the only food you'll ever like is Peanut Butter & Jelly Sandwitches (TM, bitch! ). Exploits, cheats, and unintended features can ruin a game and marr it permanently, and even if pro players like it better that way, the rest of us might not. We certainly miss the variety.
Next example:
I consider bunnyhopping to be devastating to the gameplay of games like Team Fortress, where player speed is meant to counterbalance the power level of their class. When a soldier or demoman can get in and out of the flag room nearly as effectively and quickly as the scout, yet they carry insanely more powerful weapons, that creates a big imbalance in class usefulness and power. When I started my NexTF mod, I was concerned by this severe problem. I wanted player speed to be an attribute that actually meant something when picking a class, but my testing with bunnyhopping showed that even with my clumsy attempts and with the bunnyhopping limitations, it was quite literally game breaking. Whether or not the new game this created was as good as or better than before was not something I was optimistic about. I had in my mind an idea about how the game would work, but bunnyhopping made that design unworkable.
However, when I mentioned that I was trying to remove bunnyhopping to preserve the integrity of the intended game design, I got slammed with a wave of fevered protest. Not just on the forums -- nearly everyone I talked to in PMs and e-mail commanded me, begged me, threatened me not to do it. No one would play, they warned.
Frankly, I pondered, if I had fewer pro players choking the servers with their game breaking tricks and severe skill differences, I wouldn't feel too bad. People would still play my mod, and I wasn't concerned with raw numbers but with how much fun people were having. Once pro players invade a game and start circumventing the rules and bypassing the checks and balances that make the game what it is, it's a complete toss-up whether or not it will be fun after that.
I abandoned NexTF at about the same time I abandoned Quake development because of burn-out. To this day I'm not sure what would have been better, had I finished -- lots of pro players playing my mod, or fewer normal/casual players playing it, and enjoying it the way it was meant to be played.
I'm sure some people have adamant, angry opinions to blast me with. My fault for thinking about it and sharing... but frankly, as a mod developer, I don't think that every exploit, every trick, every "skill" is appropriate in every case... and I cannot blame modders and mappers who wish to exclude certain features to create a different type of game from what the pro players demand every time. I mean seriously... maybe these players could use some variety. If all they ever play are games and mods exactly like Quake with nothing ever excluded, then their opinions are way too narrow for me to rely upon. I know what kind of gaming experience I'm trying to create, and if they're not capable of enjoying such a game then so be it. They have their games they can enjoy, and I'll enjoy my mod with friends. I'm making games to be fun and innovative, and sometimes that means not precisely imitating QW gameplay ad nauseam.
</rant>
_________________
When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.

Back to top |

xaGe Joined: 01 Mar 2006 Posts: 329 Location: Upstate, New York |

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: |

..Always enjoyed your mods Wazat and was looking forward to something like NexTF, but everyone gets burned out sooner or later.

Wazat wrote:
..I abandoned NexTF at about the same time I abandoned Quake development because of burn-out.

Back to top |

jim Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 400 Location: In The Sun |

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: |

Disco fever, burn, baby, burn! Ya, I know, burning out is nasty.. I'm constantly on fire and burning out, then I might have periods of time, like months that I don't feel like doing anything at all. Oh and thank you for these long replies LordHavoc and Wazat
_________________
zbang!

Back to top |

Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: |

xaGe wrote:
..Always enjoyed your mods Wazat and was looking forward to something like NexTF, but everyone gets burned out sooner or later.

Thank you!
It's an odd sensation. I miss modding terribly, but I never have the energy for it anymore. I sit down and try to make something, but spend most of my time staring at the screen with my mind numb. I think the burnout is coming from my work, not from my hobbies. I do programming all day long at my job, then I come home and that part of my mind is dead tired. Maybe I need to change careers or something. O_o I don't know how other people manage.
If I'm super lucky, maybe I'll have something to share at QExpo. Making promises worries me though.
_________________
When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.

Back to top |

MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject: |

I entirely agree with Wazat. The tricks pro-players come up with can be very impressive, but in many cases they ruin the balance of the game. The TF speed example is a perfect one. Frankly I'd probably be much happier with a game enjoyed by a few players who play the way it was intended than a competitive, pro environment where bunnyhopping rules.
Do you have any idea how annoying it is for non "pro" players to join a server to have a fun game, only to have it ruined because they don't have any chance against the people bouncing around the place? That spoils games for a lot of people.
_________________
Apathy Now!

Back to top |

Display posts from previous:

| Inside3d Forums Forum Index -> Gameplay & Design | All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 1 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2004 phpBB Group