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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: Playing Quake Expansion Pack 2 |

While I never got my hands on the first expansion pack, I did buy & play through the second one years ago (with cheats on because I sucked so much). I didn't like it at the time because I felt the weapons were "lazy". For example, lava nails are reskinned nails with higher damage and a new sound, and mods had cluster grenades long before the expansion came out.
Well... I started playing through it again this weekend on a whim. I'd just worked an 18.5 hour day (after a week of 12 hour days, after a week of 10 hour days) and I was pretty fried. I wanted something new, or something nostalgically old. So I turned my room upside down looking for the expansion.
I have to say... I'm impressed. For all my lobbying against it years ago, I'm pleased to see I was dead wrong.
First of all, I like the weapons set. They increase my ammo capacity and damage output of course, and add to the whole resource management thing that Quake centers around. But they also WORK well and look good. Though the art replacement and programming are super simple -- often just a damage increase and a skin swap -- it works wonders on my psyche to pull out my lava nailgun (of which I've usually collected 200) and just unload them on a swarm of fiends and hell knights. It's not just that they're powerful, it's that they burn. BAM BAM BAM EAT IT, PUNK!!!! HISSSSSS!!!
And the cluster grenades and rockets seem to work well. The rockets cover a wide spread, and the grenades scatter over a wide area. I suspect the grenades would suck in multiplayer, but they work rather well against monsters (except the dang fiends).
The level design is quite nice, and memorable I might add. The first few levels are burned into my memory and I still remember sections of them after all these years. I sure like some of them better than the original quake levels. And the new electrical traps, pendulums, and saw blades are not dumb gimmicks, I've decided, but really damn cool. They're also fun to coax monsters into.
I wasn't impressed with the start level though. All that professional work and yet the place you start looks... awkward. O_o The rest of start looks nice though.
I've only gotten a few levels down memory lane (level 4 or 6 or so and I died right at the end, lol), but I think I'm going to make time to charge through the rest, guns-a-blaz'n. I did this with original Quake a few years back (playing through with a fresh outlook and no cheats) and loved it, and I suspect I'll feel the same way with this pack too.
I'm glad I gave the pack a second chance. Here's to nostalgia vindicated.
(and btw, playing it in Darkplaces FTW )
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When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.

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leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1321 |

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Playing Quake Expansion Pack 2 |

Wazat wrote:
While I never got my hands on the first expansion pack,

the hell!?! that's the superior one
you
get to store
buy scourge of armagon now
that is an order

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Lardarse Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 243 Location: Bristol, UK |

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: |

The grenades work best when you don't do direct hits, btw

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Dr. Shadowborg Inside3D Staff Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 726 |

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |

SoA is better in some respects, but the buzzsaws, pendulums, and multiposition elevators were nice. The multi-grenades suck. (This is why the next version of hellsmash's grenade launcher grenade explosion is very much different from the prior version...)
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mh Joined: 12 Jan 2008 Posts: 910 |

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |

I've never been entirely convinced that SoA was better. All the consecutive base levels at the start seem to have dated incredibly quick (TBH they felt dated by the time I'd bought it, when I'd already played Q2), and a lot of the new features are gimmicky hacks more than anything else. The weapons in particular are pure novelty that don't really fit in with the "feel" of Q1. DoE on the other hand certainly retains the classic never-imitated Q1 atmosphere.
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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |

Honestly the lava nails have my biggest vote for favorite. I tend to not use explosives anyway since I don't like blowing myself up with them, and it's hard to find an area large enough to use them (though I do frequently lob grenades and rockets at distant targets, or those around corners). I have 100 of both types of explosive ammo (normal and multi) and struggle to remind myself to use them when the situation is appropriate. Zombies also earn my explosive ire, as do any targets far away and high enough that I don't want to waste nails or shells on 'em.
I mostly only remember to pull out something other than the super shotgun when I max out my nails or lava nails, or a shambler is begging for a face full of lighting gun or super lava nails. I'm too much of a conservative minimalist with my ammo. I need to use my other guns at *some* point.
I think the one feature I do NOT like is the earthquakes. I don't like sliding into a pit of lava because the ground moves every time I touch an invisible trigger.
As for levels, I still like the design for the most part, and I've noticed that many areas are very well put together for directing ogre grenades to me.
The way I'd redo the cluster grenades:
-The grenade splits on a shorter timer, or perhaps on impact.
-If the grenade impacts a squishy target, instead of only exploding it splits immediately, but puts a special flag on the mini-nades that tells them to not explode on impact with a squishy. They will instead explode on a 1.5 second timer or upon hitting a SOLID_BSP surface. This way, the grenades slide off the target and explode all around him (instead of all touching him immediately and exploding all at once in the same location, which doesn't look good).
-If the grenade spits on its timer rather than on impacting a target, its mini-nades explode on contact with targets as normal.
-Ogre multigrenades should work this way too, so it's a bad situation for the player to get hit by one.
--
I have serious doubts I'll find the first expansion anywhere in local stores. It's hard enough finding a game that's a year old. Maybe online.
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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |

mh: I really like how they're mixing enforcers and grunts into the levels in this one, so you see them around fiends, ogres and hell knights. It seems to fit, since they are mind controlled humans and they don't need to be on a military base, they'll follow and serve anywhere.
I used to like the military base levels in vanilla quake a lot and wanted to see more at the time, but i think the levels in this expansion are so much better without that theme. Bases have their place (I for one enjoyed Q2 to some extent), but they shouldn't detract or get over-saturated like in Q2.
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Dr. Shadowborg Inside3D Staff Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 726 |

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:46 am Post subject: |

MH: I agree for the most part, though SoA has some rather cool foes, and the base theme fits given what Armagon turned out to be. (Not to forget the SpikeMines and Cyborg Scorpions =P) Wazat: I did away with separating grenades entirely in favor of multiple successive explosions generated in random directions and distances from the center of the explosion. (Uses frik's mathlib.qc mathlib_randomvec() It actually works quite well, and is particularly fun to bombard frikbots in deathmatch.
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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: |

Dr. Shadowborg: Lol! Sounds good. Update: I've finished the first episode, now onto the second. ^_^ _________________ When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.

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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |

W00t! I finished it last Wednesday. It's been fun, and I still think my only real grievances are the earthquakes (which were thankfully rarely used) and the fact that the cluster grenades did turn out to be pretty useless. The cluster rocket was pretty decent, but only the ogre was able to use cluster grenades effectively. Sometimes I could fire the cluster grenades in the air and get them to split over an enemy's head (or cluster of enemies).
I have to say, one thing I liked the most about this expansion over regular Quake was the abundance of distinct boss battles. From the "guardians", to the mini-chthons, and finally the flying dragon, I had a lot of fun handing out ass whoopings to the best the forces of evil could throw at me. And being the pathological ammo conservationist that I am, I had plenty of cells, multirockets and lava nails to unload on the bosses.
Original Quake's idea of a boss battle was a creature that was impossible to kill in any way except solving the puzzle (lightning pillars and buttons for chthon, and telefrag for shub), and occasionally throwing a shambler or two at me. It's cool to have the occasional puzzle, but when I'm going into the ultimate showdown with my enemy I want to kick his ASS on a very personal basis. That means unleashing a mercilous rain of cluster rockets and lava nails upon it and its minions and then spitting on the remains. I didn't get to spit on shub, and she ate all the nails I fired at her and kept coming. :/
Though honestly it's pretty cool to defeat the ultimate enemy in the game with the ultimate attack, the telefrag.
One more thing I'd like to mention: I love the double-barrel shotgun! I used to hate it and favored just about anything else I could find on the higher numbers, but in single player it's one tough SOB. I get a ton of shells (50 shots assuming no refills found along the way) and lots of damage per shot as long as I'm not sniping with it. The nailgun, too, proved to be a very excellent staple weapon. Things change in single player against enemies that aren't moving 60 miles per hour. The super shotty is very useful!
Sadly, I used the boomstick and various flavors of nailgun so often I often completely forgot about my two lightning guns. The split lighting didn't seem all that useful (doesn't even kill a zombie), but the normal lightning cannon usually came out when a shambler reared its ugly head, though even then I often forgot and used nails instead. And near the end of the second episode I finally trained myself to use my rockets! Turned out pretty effective when I wasn't blowing myself up. 2 rockets to kill an ogre, 3 around corners.
So... Here's to revisiting nostalgia.
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Lardarse Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 243 Location: Bristol, UK |

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:10 am Post subject: |

It looks like the whole experience has not only made you appreciate it more, but also sharpened your single player skills. If you're going to be close to enemies, the double shotguns are often better weapons to use. 4 to take down an ogre, 5 for a hellknight, 6 for a fiend. Assuming you can hit them consistently enough. You need to average 50 damage per blast (12.5 of 14 pellets) to do so, and this tends to be harder on hellknights than on fiends, because of their smaller hitbox.

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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |

'tis true. However, I found that the super shotgun is excellent against hell knights too. Short-range combat will keep them from shooting hell spikes at me, and I'm very able to stay out of their sword's range as long as I don't get snagged on a corner. This allows me to unload shells into them freely, while staying relatively safe.
Fiends, imo, are harder with a super shotty because they're faster moving and they tend to jump like crazy. As long as I have a wide area to work in (wide enough to strafe dodge their jumps and unload buckshot into their bellies as they pass) it's really not a problem. Thin hallways with lots of corners tend to favor dodging around the corner, jumping back for a shot, then dodging back out again, but that works better against shamblers than fiends unless the fiend's jump gets it caught on something. Rockets work well against the fiends in small areas if I can dodge around a corner (and blast it blindly) or keep a safe enough distance to not blow myself up.
Shamblers are tricky, and I do not pull out the double shotty against them unless it and explosives are all I have left (this did not happen in Normal difficulty). I tend to prefer dodging around a corner and shooting the edge of their bounding box from relative safety. I can easily get them caught around a corner or endlessly circling a pillar, never quite reaching me. In this case, shamblers are even easier than fiends.
However, put me in a large room with no obstacles or other monsters and within humping distance of a shambler, and I can still survive. There's two strategies. The first is to run up to the shambler and provoke a melee attack, then immediately back up, then immediately jump forward when its attack finishes to make sure he keeps doing melee attacks. This way I only get snagged maybe once or twice before it's dead, and I can mostly control what it does... all the while unloading buckshot, nails or electricity into it. God help me if I'm down to the axe or explosives.
The other strategy is to either stay outside of lightning distance (and snipe with nails, shotgun or even rockets), or just camp in place and endure the damage while dealing a lot more damage in return. I'm not particularly proud of this strategy, but I must admit that when I'm tired and irritable and healthy enough to live (and sometimes not) it's pretty much what I resort to.
Of course, the game changes if there are multiple shamblers and not enough strategic cover (bad!), or lots of other types of monsters to exploit infighting (good!).
Dang, now I want to play through again in hard mode.
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When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.

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Lardarse Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 243 Location: Bristol, UK |

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |

The true "man's strategy" is to shambler dance with the SSG, of course...

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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject: |

I was told that was a shambler dance with the axe and 5 health. _________________ When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.

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Lardarse Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 243 Location: Bristol, UK |

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: |

Shouldn't your sig be "Masochistic Squirrel" then, not "Sadistic Squirrel" ?

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