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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:26 pm Post subject: Revitalizing Quake |

I know its an old topic (Im sure its been a topic since 97 when Quake2 came out) but something that often comes to mind is the rather stagnant sense of development for Quake. In some ways, it is making massive leaps (SagDoll, DarkPlaces, the damage system in Conquest, Prydon Gate's entire setup, and what also looks to be Ajay's strange adventure, TAoV), but aside from tehcnical aspects, none of these tie into Quake. No offense to the aforementioned mods, they are marvelous, enthralling (of what I have played) and creative. But the Quake universe seems almost abandoned or shunned. And this seems like it may be mainly due to the seperation of the different 'cliques' in Quake.
We have the mappers, and the coders, and then the incredibly few, the modellers and texture artists.
I love DarkPlaces, but I would love to see a DP map made by someone with the skill of Vondur, RPG, czg, gibbie, than, any of that crew, specifically for DP and taking advantage of its capabilities with real time lighting and so on, perhaps in conjunction with a cool mod that makes use of its qc extensions.
It just as a whole feels like... one part of the community has made the wheel, another has made an engine (huh, that works literally), and another has made a cool frame.... and they all want to drive somewhere, but they arent bringing together their resources.
Granted you need cas to drive this car, and that is something I myself am guilty of, not gas, but not providing enough of an excited word, and of spreading that word.
Im a bit of an evangelical Christian, and on matters of gaming, I should take the same approach in entertainment. When I read a good bit of scripture, I want to tell the world, when I hear a good album (such as Opeth) I tend to not rest until everyone I know has heard it. Such should be the same of good gaming content you find, particularly that that is made by this community.
We need to nurture one anothers productivity (in my case, just the others, Im about as productive as Rebel Boat Rocker, or the original Prey team) and it would be cool to see a blending more so of the community types for a better product.
Because honestly, Im tired of walking around e1m3 in DarkPlaces. Im tired of gibbing Frikbots with my brand new guns on maps that dont have them in mind. My attention is waning on the same technical applications, when they are not being applied.
Much in the same way, I would not be content with a retexturing or remodelling project, even if done well (though extremely pleased, I would not be satisfied, yes, thats actually a Christian reference but I wont go into it here) because it is only offering a new visual experience... and new is an arguable premise on that matter.
Speaking with Asaki at one point, he said he wouldnt be particularly interested in any Quake Refurbishing project unless it brought new content to him; such as a new episode. Something I myself cherish the idea of, and have discussed intimately and at length with LordHavoc, the Ostgard brothers, Tomaz, Static_Fiend, and many others on.
We cant just keep on going back and putting gloss and bumpmaps over old memories. I want content that makes memories, not alters existing ones.
Of course, I might be less of a hypocrite on the issue if I could be productive, but Im hoping to stimulate people on these matters a little bit more.

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:35 pm Post subject: |

Yesturday I finally got so bored of looking at that old player model that I finally decided to do something about it. I've only just started on this, and it's currently in mdl format with a quake pallette skin, but I intend to convert it to md3 before animating it. If I get that far...
http://img10.echo.cx/img10/7968/ranger2tj.gif
Sure, we could just use the Q3 ranger, whether hacked together into 1 model or not, but I don't want to play with something designed for Q3. So this is my attempt at rejouvinating Quake; I certainly hope I can finish it.
_________________
Apathy Now!

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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: |

good lord that spins fast can barely look at it but that does look pretty good, and a nice increase in poly count without going into ridiculous detail what modelling progs are you using ?

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:37 pm Post subject: |

What else but QME I'll probably port it to milkshape then use cheapy's quake skeletal anim file to animate it, since I really can't be bothered doing every frame myself _________________ Apathy Now!

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Urre Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 1073 Location: Sweden |

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:58 pm Post subject: |

Hello there Scar3crow. Yes, the age old topic, which so far has consisted mostly of talk. A lot of "sounds cool", but not so much "let's do it". You say you aren't all too interested in looking at remade content, that you'd rather see a new episode and so forth... You musn't forget, that if you make this new episode, with all new bumpmapped realtime mcjumbo, the old content (models, sounds and textures) will feel out of place, which is why the retexturing and remodeling projects are still needed. Anyone who's played Willi Hammes Tenebrae pimping map knows what i mean. New maps and episodes get released constantly, so there's not a shortage in that territory. The real problem lies in the fact that Quake isn't as popular as many of us would like it to be. This leads to general uninterest in creating anything for it.
As sad as it is to say, it won't happen. Most artists find other things more interesting than revamping some brown old thing, even if they'd probably love it once it's done.
Then there's also the fact that Quake is really, really vague. This leads to creative people making up their own background stories, explanations, filling holes in the plot... Everyone has their own take on it. I personally love this about Quake, because it lets me do just that, my own story. But that's just what it is, my story, and most will probably not agree on it. No matter what you do with a plot update/change/continuation, there will be people who plain hate it. I'll be one of those, trust me. I tried once, and the project (as it was then) died out for those exact reasons, disagreement about what is appropriate and what is not.
It takes a dedicated mind, and a lot of free time (or money) to do it, since you will probably be doing it alone.
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Look out for Twigboy

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DarkSnow Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 67 Location: Sweden |

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:20 am Post subject: |

People today dont realy care about quake1 (hey, face it!) This is what i belive, and some probably will not agree --- Its like that with most old games. Even if you make it ultra modern in gfx and content, the game criticaly needs fresh controls and standardized ambience.
For instance the quake engine still has no way of ducking. Even if you seldom actualy duck or have use for it, you miss it if its gone.
+use - activate stuff with a use key rather than shooting at the trigger
Ambience. Stuff like the sound of footsteps while walking and that the sound of the steps will sound like walking on metal while walking on metal. Colored lights, background music, cutscenes (i know its all possible but few actualy use it)
Trace instead of models, as many prolly loves that flying "spike" triangle you have to face that this is one of the major resons why people dislike q1 (or love). By having a (compared to real bullets) a slow as hell model - triangular in shape - people will after being used to games as counter-strike feel that the game contents is out of date. Trace_line's are fresher, more standardized when it comes to hi-velocity weapons.
Think of it like building a website... If you deviate to mutch from the rest of the sites (in the sites gui/structure) the user will be somewhat confused since he is used to having a standardized system of navigation-links and contents. I hope most people will get what i mean here.
So, i guess that if the ambience and controls of quake1 would improve to match todays standards people would prolly feel that (if the engine has nice graphical capabiletys) its a descent game - and thats IF they would even consider downloading and test it. I dont know how many times people have laughed when i have asked
- Want to play some quake?
- Quake 3?
- No, Classic Quake
*30s silence*
I like quake1 for my own reasons, but im not sure if quake1 will ever be as popular again...
/Darkie

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:45 am Post subject: |

I think Nexuiz could well change all that. It's graphicly fantastic, and aparently has a great control system. Once people see what Darkplaces is capable of I'm betting we'll see quite a few mods of nexuiz, and quite a few new Quakers. Remember guys, we can make standalone games, HL2 modders can't.
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Apathy Now!

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DarkSnow Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 67 Location: Sweden |

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:31 am Post subject: |

MauveBib wrote:
Remember guys, we can make standalone games, HL2 modders can't.

That is the beauty of it But i dont get it.. Have not halflife still like 40% gpl code from (modified) quake1/2 sources? Isnt that like if we were to start creating standalones and refusing to release any source-codes exept for the qc?

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MauveBib Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 602 |

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:48 am Post subject: |

The HL code isn't GPL because they paid for the licence. If we were to pay for the licence then we wouldn't have to release the source either. _________________ Apathy Now!

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VorteX Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 12 |

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:13 am Post subject: |

I agree with Urre. Quake is great game for creativity, but making really new and finished project with it is hard and there are only few people that can do it. Quake community is big enough but it consists by mostly standalone modder-groups.

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leileilol Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1321 |

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 pm Post subject: |

Well Prydon was awesome mainly because it was fueled by the talents of here. Can we do the same again? _________________

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Dr. Shadowborg Inside3D Staff Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 726 |

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Revitalizing Quake |

scar3crow wrote:
We cant just keep on going back and putting gloss and bumpmaps over old memories. I want content that makes memories, not alters existing ones.

That's part of what I'm trying to accomplish with TROH, except that what I'm attempting is to take those old memories, and make them fresh, and even more unforgettable.
As a side note, I'm kind of stalled on the Barracuda Grenade Launcher model, even though I've got something already set up. Mainly I've got to get off me duff and get at the skin, and also animate the model as well... Once it's out of the way, things'll pick up on progress again.
Something I'd also like to point out is that often, those old moldy maps can seem very much alive and fresh. Take for instance some really good map gems I came across, in these past few days. (From the olden days of '96-'97!) There they were, moldering, alone and unloved in the old ftp archives, and then I came along and found them. =D
My point with the above paragraph being that oft as not, there's a whole world of content just waiting to be discovered or rediscovered, that's outstanding, but never got noticed for one reason or another, and if treated properly, will never seem old.
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"Roboto suggests Plasma Bazooka."

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Wazat Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 732 Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA |

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: |

VorteX wrote:
I agree with Urre. Quake is great game for creativity, but making really new and finished project with it is hard and there are only few people that can do it. Quake community is big enough but it consists by mostly standalone modder-groups.

Sadly, that's true. Conquest may or may not ever finish, and if it does, it'll never be as pretty or cool as I envision it to be. I often wonder what it would be like in one of the newer games, where all the effects I want are available already, and I don't have to keep faking effects or compromising. I love Quake, but it's getting more and more restrictive by the day.

Quote:
Well Prydon was awesome mainly because it was fueled by the talents of here. Can we do the same again?

Prydon was a freak of nature (in a good way) in that it had:
1) A talented and seasoned mod leader who was highly capable of making most of it himself
2) Lots of people contributing models, maps, even code (compared to other mods, FrikaC got extraordinary support), meaning the afforementioned mod leader didn't have to make it all himself
3) It finished. Mods don't finish, they just sit at 5-30% development for the rest of their lives.
Most mods have one, maybe two of those, but not all 3.
I'd love to create more 'freaks' of its kind -- in other words, I'd love to see lots of us all contributing to a project to help it succeed, just to shake things up a little.
In the mean time, I'll have to be satisfied with my FrikaC voodoo doll.
Outshine ME will you?! *POKE*
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When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.

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Urre Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 1073 Location: Sweden |

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject: |

I don't understand how some of you consider Prydon finished and over, and something that got tons of support and content. It's still being worked on, and we're desperately looking for more talent, mainly in mapping. Lack of content is Prydon's largest issue. It only has 2 (placeholder) maps, yet is supposed to be an epic adventure. ELF bro's gave us TDA, which was greately appriciated, and Frik made the sidestory Korweh to inspire people to come and work on Prydon. Few did.
Darksnow: the things you present there are mostly an issue of gamecode, not the engine. Ambience is also something that comes out of good art direction, not the engine. Crouching is not an engine issue, it's the q1bsp format. You can still do crouching even in that, with some clever thinking. Many engines support the HLbsp format, which has a new crouch hull. DP supports q3bsp, which can have any hull size. The fact that the nailguns use visible nails was just something id chose to do, and could easily be changed by any modder. These are non-issues.
VorteX: If it only was that good. Quake community is small, divided, and self-destructive. There are few modder groups, and even fewer with more than 2-3 members.
/me sighs at Quake community
_________________
Look out for Twigboy

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DarkSnow Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 67 Location: Sweden |

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: |

Urre wrote:
Darksnow: the things you present there are mostly an issue of gamecode, not the engine. Ambience is also something that comes out of good art direction, not the engine. Crouching is not an engine issue, it's the q1bsp format. You can still do crouching even in that, with some clever thinking. Many engines support the HLbsp format, which has a new crouch hull. DP supports q3bsp, which can have any hull size. The fact that the nailguns use visible nails was just something id chose to do, and could easily be changed by any modder. These are non-issues.

Just telling my opinion on why q1 is a unattractive engine for todays modern players to play in. And as i said, i could be wrong - its just my opinion anyway.

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