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Physics exploits

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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: Physics exploits |

When playing mods and singleplayer maps, how prone are you to bunnyhopping, or rocketjumping? I myself do neither in singleplayer unless I found out the map or mod calls for or encourages such - and besides, I dont know how to bunnyhop. But the question is, do we generally assume id expectations of how we handle new content, or do we approach it with the modern movement techniques? I always felt like I was cheating if I rocketjumped in a map as it can bypass the flow so much - which bbelief6 had some nice protection against.
It is well known that the id maps fall apart in the face of rocket and grenade jumping - or even just taking things to a stretch (e2m1 anyone?) - should modern mappers and modders create content with these things in mind, or should it be kept to the 1996 id standard? Another place to look for such is in the Doom community - most sourceports allow for mouselook and jumping. Ive never seen a mapper specifically forbid mouselook, but Im sure some extremists do, but I can understand forbidding jumping.
Thoughts?

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Preach Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Posts: 122 |

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Physics exploits |

I think that maps should generally be designed with a very naive approach to rocketjumping and bunnyhoppy and all these techniques. So basically the map shouldn't require you to do any of them to complete the map, but it shouldn't prevent natural shortcuts either. Obviously you have some control over how you design the map, if you want to include a wall in your map which stops a certain rocket jump, that's ok. However, things like clipping off certain jumps or putting killtriggers about aren't cricket in my book. The only people they really stop are speedrunners, and why would you want to do that?
Of course, my opinion is influenced by the way I play, which is to not really to use rocektjumps, and only bunny for quick movement around rather than to make long jumps. This isn't just because I suck at bunnies under pressure, it's kinda about playing the map as it's intended. Since it's single player, skipping bits of the level is only cheating yourself, and it seems a bit of a waste. Most of the enjoyment from the level for me is from looking around, exploring it, and beating all the monsters up. A tactical rocket jump, where you get to higher ground to escape a monster ambush below also seems fair game to me, although I don't recall ever having the presence of mind to do it myself.
One place where I feel tricks can be put is for secrets, since they're non essential and so someone who's never heard of these tricks can complete the level anyway. There's a good example of this in Popacabra's new turtlemap, where you need to wallstrafe to make a jump to a secret(a little hint there if you're about to play it). It's not a hard trick, and if you don't think to do it then you're not at much of a disadvantage, but it's satisfying if you pull it off and get rewarded.
A lot of it comes down to the consensus of player and mapper. I assume most mappers make maps for players who play like me, as they never put in places you have to rocket jump to progress in, besides a few speedmaps that clearly signpost "you should rocketjump here". If mappers always assumed people could rocketjump, I'm sure players would do it all the time. You'd get some wierd levels though, and without things like healing pools it'd be easy to get stuck with too little health, and unable to progress. So maybe it's best not to.
Last edited by Preach on Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Preach Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Posts: 122 |

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Physics exploits |

Preach wrote:
I think that maps should generallt be designed with a very naive approach to rocketjumping and bunnyhoppy and all these techniques. So basically the map shouldn't require you to do any of them to complete the map, but it shouldn't prevent natural shortcuts either. Obviously you have some control over how you design the map, if you want to include a wall in your map which stops a certain rocket jump, that's ok. However, things like clipping off certain jumps or putting killtriggers about aren't cricket in my book. The only people they really stop are speedrunners, and why would you want to do that?
Of course, my opinion is influenced by the way I play, which is to not really to use rocektjumps, and only bunny for quick movement around rather than to make long jumps. This isn't just because I suck at bunnies under pressure, it's kinda about playing the map as it's intended. Since it's single player, skipping bits of the level is only cheating yourself, and it seems a bit of a waste. Most of the enjoyment from the level for me is from looking around, exploring it, and beating all the monsters up. A tactical rocket jump, where you get to higher ground to escape a monster ambush below also seems fair game to me, although I don't recall ever having the presence of mind to do it myself.
One place where I feel tricks can be put is for secrets, since they're non essential and so someone who's never heard of these tricks can complete the level anyway. There's a good example of this in Popacabra's new turtlemap, where you need to wallstrafe to make a jump to a secret(a little hint there if you're about to play it). It's not a hard trick, and if you don't think to do it then you're not at much of a disadvantage, but it's satisfying if you pull it off and get rewarded.
A lot of it comes down to the consensus of player and mapper. I assume most mappers make maps for players who play like me, as they never put in places you have to rocket jump to progress in, besides a few speedmaps that clearly signpost "you should rocketjump here". If mappers always assumed people could rocketjump, I'm sure players would do it all the time. You'd get some wierd levels though, and without things like healing pools it'd be easy to get stuck with too little health, and unable to progress. So maybe it's best not to.

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scar3crow Inside3D Staff Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 837 Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: |

Preach apparently really likes his comment. I agree with map naievete to a degree - and my idea of prevention of rocketjumping would never be kill triggers, but rather having another locked door beyond the locked door you rj-ed past. Just put the opening trigger inside of the locked door brushes, so you have to cause the locked door to open in order to touch that trigger.
But you could also reward such a rocketjump by having an exposed alcove with items become hidden once the player touches the unlocking trigger. The player cannot move forward that much in the map, but he could find a secret that otherwise he wouldnt reach (it could be an unmarked secret, with merely a trigger_once notifying you that you found something unique).
Yes, skipping bits of the level does cheat you - and I would never go with clipbrushes to prevent things, I love seeing how speedmappers collapse a map to achieve their times - its like watching the Event Horizon at work!
I intend on playing the turtlemaps after I get off of work and goto the gym. However I have no idea how to wallstrafe, or that it was a trick jump....
I recall recommending to Asaki that he have a secret in one of his maps that involved basically harming oneself for the item - if a player nullifies the harming aspect, the secret locks. It has a literal cost, but it would help a lot (I recommended the secret contain an SNG earlier than usual, powerful, wont be affected by possibly re-entering the harm aspect if required).

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Preach Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Posts: 122 |

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |

Arrgh, it was dark, it looked like edit. Next time I'll leave the mistakes in. Can't delete it any more, is that a timed thing?

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SkinnedAlive Joined: 25 Feb 2005 Posts: 65 |

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: |

It makes sense in something like Runner's Delight but apart from that a required rocket jump is a very bad idea IMO. If you're not very good at them it will not only be frustrating but will also lose you health and ammo (stuff you most likely wont have if you can't rocket jump anyway).
I think a lot of the modern user-maps assume too much of the player's skill, even when it's compensated for with easy mode. I personally have to resort to constant quick-saving and loading to beat most of them. Usually because I run out of ammo.
You'd think after so long playing a game..

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