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Posted by ijed [201.222.206.151] on 2007/03/10 15:33:53

Hereīs a quick remake of E4M4, running under Qouth. Itīs pretty much a turtlemap so not too big or pretty. I breached the static entities limit so youīll need an enhanced engine to play, I recommend AguirReīs Nehahra variant. It supports Coop but not Dm.
Sorry, no screens - puta PSP decided to commit hara-kiri.
Download (compliments of the Shub-Hub):
http://shub-hub.quaddicted.com/fil...
enjoy.

Not Bad
#1 posted by golden_boy [89.27.252.170] on 2007/03/11 00:06:28
Clean texturing and pretty good lighting. Two things the original doesn't have (although it's one of the "more tolerable" e4 maps) :-) I like the lanterns and the way you did the wall decorations.
IMO you went a bit overboard with the torches under the rooftops (in the halls), creates a small mess of shadows.
The grey corridors feel a bit bland, which is not your fault, but the original's. Did you add the fake doorways, or are they original? I like.
In some areas, you have stairstep shadows (first room)
I think that in general, it's slightly out of scale (i.e. corridors too high/wide, staircases too big) like it's made for giants.
but not bad.
Many id maps were pretty horribly textured, obviously under pressure. So it's pretty "easy" (still lots of work of course) to visually update them.
The gameplay of the originals (which I think they focused on) is pretty hard to top, though.
I can't really comment on that though because I just went spectating in tourist mode. I'll replay this when I get out of stone age. Please think of poor third world people (germans)...
But I like the fiend at the start :-) very in your face. yay for slaughter and bloody mess!
Pretty Good
#2 posted by Omus [131.227.231.18] on 2007/03/11 00:45:33
I see this was meant to be a quick overhaul of the entities rather than a full remake, so I won't comment on textures, brushwork etc. It's satisfying to see the Quoth bad guys getting the run of the original maps. Challenging enough, I died about 5 times on nightmare. One thing that was frustrating though, are those stupid little braziers that damage you. There are too many in places where its easy to run over them. I would suggest turning off the damage on those if its possible.
#3 posted by Trinca [87.196.219.219] on 2007/03/11 01:15:55
real fun map was HARD IN HARD zomggg finish with real few heathy
good work!
Cheers
#4 posted by ijed [201.222.201.240] on 2007/03/11 01:34:01
I should have put this in the first post, but it was only meant as a bit of fun for a quick runthrough.
I upped ths scale about 1.5 - which makes it feel a bit empty. I was trying to agitate the player. In hard youīll notice there arenīt any health packs, only the heal pool and the odd megahealth. The idea was to create the same fear in a seasoned Quake player of today as they would have had when treading these halls in the way back when. >cough<
I added the fake doorways, ot was very bland there until then.
The stairstep shadows from the lanterns were hard to eliminate - this was as close as I could get, for some reason. (-full -extra4).
Sorry about the braziers - and they canīt be turned off. They donīt work the way I imagened they would - just irritating.
I Like It, I Like It.
#5 posted by Text_Fish [82.32.1.90] on 2007/03/11 13:37:39
Visually it's still pretty oldschool, but that certainly doesn't detract from the overall experience. I took the liberty of grabbing a couple of screenshots, simply because no new map announcement should be without some visual reference point.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/...
I did get properly shocked a few times, which is rare for Quake these days. It's all about breaking expectations, which is absolutely the right thing to do in a remake, whilst of course maintaining the general ambiance of the original.
ijed, if you wanted to fix the braziers [they were annoying, especially when backing away from fiends] you could probably place a small clip brush over them, with a slight step so that the player can still move over the top of them.
Hehe
#6 posted by aguirRe [213.101.70.252] on 2007/03/11 15:00:06
One of the droles on a walkway seems to like to get burned on the braziers, he keeps doing it until he dies. He doesn't even want to break away if you attack him ...
Anyone Want To Fix The Spelling? ;)
#7 posted by than [220.47.251.83] on 2007/03/11 16:24:39
Quoth.
I still haven't played all through episode 4 anyway, so maybe I will do before I play this map.
Yes, I know I've been playing the game 10 years and never bothered to finish episode 4 :) I will one day.
Beautiful
#8 posted by CI475 [82.50.125.165] on 2007/03/11 17:14:05
Just played in 2 players coop, lot of fun. I like the upped scale, it's really oppressive, really "lovecrafty" that's perfect for a q1 map. The gameplay is great with some shock as Text_Fish said, the level of detail is not. Oldschool does not fit with Quoth I think. But as you said this is not a proper map but more a turtlemap so I think that's pretty fair.
My vote: I like it!
#9 posted by golden_boy [89.27.252.42] on 2007/03/11 20:32:26
I get your point about the scale.
How to create fear or shock in an FPS is probably stuff for a whole thread. Architecture-wise I would say it has to do with not knowing what's behind the next corner. Fear of the unknown, if you will. Broad, tall corridors and well-lit halls perhaps don't have enough "fear spots". You can see pretty far.
This theory would favour smaller, more cramped layouts. Like the Alien movies - monster-infested air ducts, low, twisted corridors with timed doors, being locked in a small steel room with monster etc. Confined, inescapable places, possibly even dark. Those movies are full of corridors (sometimes flooded!) - ironically something that mappers are trying to get away from. Rooms are typically small, difficult to survey, and have well-defined functions: sickbays, prison cells, cockpits, cargo bays (these are bigger but full of crates etc.), scrapyards (outdoors, dark), and surprisingly, kitchens and canteens. They're eating all the time it seems (spaghetti!). Atria are few and far between, and are often safe havens and meeting points because space also means space to escape, and space to control. No space means no escape, no control.
That sums up why I personally think that larger scale actually creates less horror.
Of course Quake just isn't a horror game, not like Doom is. Good Doom levels are very cramped, full of corners and doglegs, monster cabinets, and they're DARK. Build a quake map like that, and people will get annoyed. "It's too dark, cramped, boxy, bleak, oldschool..."
Quake is more like a sports game, especially multiplayer. It's more about the flow and "twitch" than horror.
Consequently, Quake 2 is a wargame. Although I have to say, in some ways it has more scare potential, for example the prison cells, cyborg stuff and the tech theme. It's not taken advantage of, though. It could have been much more scary.
Castles and cathedrals just don't scare me much. Neither do "satanic artifacts". That's why I find maps like Day of the Lords, CDA etc. technically interesting, but not really scary.
I find Zerstörer pretty scary though.
Quake Can Be Very Scary.
#10 posted by Text_Fish [82.32.1.90] on 2007/03/11 22:36:21
The good thing about it is that it doesn't rely on monsters hiding in cupboards, or dark crawlspaces. Quake's horror is in its completely 'other-world' feel. The fact that there are no kitchens, bathrooms or fire exits suggest that the inhabitants have no purpose other than to guard these vast grandiose chambers that in turn seemingly have no other purpose than to be guarded. The death knight standing in wait behind the next door may have been stood in that spot for hundreds of years without moving an inch. Dust has probably collected in thick reams on his armour. Then one day the door opens and without a second of hesitation he lunges at you. The enemies are completely single minded in their desire to kill you, and you don't even know why they want to do that in the first place!
It's scary because it's inexplicable.
Humm
#11 posted by bambuz [213.169.4.168] on 2007/03/11 22:49:43
I played at normal skill. Argh, but now I realize I should have played with Quoth and not basic as I did. Well, I can comment on the architecture:
There were quite a lot of small lighting glitches, nothing very serious but still kinda caught my eye that was trying to hunt for secrets.
The halls were biggish but maybe they were nice with the Quoth monsters...
Played with fitzquake.
Claustrophic Or Agoraphobic
#12 posted by CI475 [82.50.125.165] on 2007/03/11 22:53:13
It's the exageration that matters, that can't be explicable and leave you breathless and scared.
So this map works. Thanks god the mapper can create a little game in his map (like in a lot of cases in the sp quake maps) without thinking that quake is a sport game. In this case ijed made the dark at the distant corner a fear maker.
Text_Fish
#13 posted by Kinn [81.158.85.241] on 2007/03/11 23:26:13
what you said, rocked.
I like the cut of your Gib.
_
#14 posted by ijed [201.222.205.36] on 2007/03/12 00:56:51
Thereīs a difference between claustrophobia and fear. I just tried to make some tension. Itīs supposed to be played in hard, where the only source of health is the pool.
By the way, I reckon this is pretty much an open source type map - Iīll post a link to the source if anyone asks for it. In all regards I see the map as 60% - gameplay, architecture, what-have-you.
Yes, than, I habitually mispell Qouth. Or Quoth.
One Other Thing
#15 posted by ijed [201.222.205.36] on 2007/03/12 01:28:46
Thereīs fog - 0.05 0 0 0 to emulate the darkness. The brazierīs are easly fixed by deleting the trigger_hurts I put in. Yep, theyīre irritating.
As Kinn said, text_fish, you speaketh well.
I never liked the Doom3 ideal of fear. The creatures I was most scared of were in the alpha - in the full game it was the Trites.
Glad the coop worked well; Iīm trying to gear my pack, Warp Spasm (plug!) towards it, since I donīt like deathmtach but really like netplay.
I was personally dissapointed by Q2 - very slow, the character design uninteresting. The gladiator and medic were the only highpoints. In D3 it was the Bruiser - a great enemy, ie. something you want to kill.
CI475 - I reckon itīs the innormalness (?) that creates the fear. It can big overscaled or underscaled, but itīs the oddness that makes it scary, strange, unsettling, or not. The easiest fear to play off of in the human animal is that of the unknown.
Glad you all like the map, more or less. Email me if you want the source.
Fear!
#16 posted by Spirit [213.39.129.205] on 2007/03/12 11:42:26
Phew, this is a interesting map indeed. When I first loaded it I thought "ugh, looks boring". Then I realised I should 1. use Quoth and 2. use an engine with fog. Stupid me. :D
The distance shadow works very well towards the dark atmosphere. Textures and brushes were left pretty basic with some good parts (the SNG area looked nice) and some bad (often badly placed/aligned textures in my opinion).
I have not yet beaten the map. On the first try I thought the healing pool would give unlimited health and relied(?) on that.
On the second try I ran out of ammo with 2 Shamblers and 1 of the "hand"-monsters chasing me.
I recorded both in Darkplaces, just shout if you want the demos (they will only run in DP because of the new netcode, hooray...).
I listened to http://www.entity.be/entity/releas... whilst playing which added a damn creepy feeling of being lost and all alone in this "demon-posessed" evil palace. Gave me goosebumps...
The Shout For The Demos
#17 posted by CI475 [82.52.116.130] on 2007/03/12 18:37:51
I WANT THE DEMOS!
Oh, cool album, very very interesting but only wait for mine to come out, you'll see...
Demos & Zipped Quaddicted Mirror
#18 posted by Spirit [213.39.129.205] on 2007/03/12 19:47:03
Compressed as .zip: http://www.quaddicted.com/filebase...
My demos: http://shub-hub.quaddicted.com/fil...
(ugly...) :D
Nice Feeling
#19 posted by Ankh [82.160.155.18] on 2007/03/12 21:05:41
As I was playing this map I remembered the feelings I had when playing the original e4m4 for the first time. I was really scared then. And now I was also scared a bit while playing this map. Didn't finish it though. After using up all health from the pool (on skill 2) I had no other choice and died. Quicksaving didn't help much. You can check out my last quicksave and try your luck (hehe): http://shub-hub.quaddicted.com/fil...
The ammo was also very sparse all the time. I guess I should have used the "hammer" everytime it was possible but I didn't bother since I hoped to find some ammo on my way. I guess whit some more ammo I wouldn't be scared at all :). But it was a nice try from you.
Did you build the level from scratch or did you upscale it somehow?
Fun Map
#20 posted by Sielwolf [84.130.221.129] on 2007/03/12 21:06:23
made me think that id remakes/ interpretations(like thanīs dm3rmx) would be a great theme for a speedmapping pack or even a full-blown "id tribute pack" :D
Skill
#21 posted by ijed [190.82.51.199] on 2007/03/12 21:27:03
Skill 2/3 is very difficult because there's no health packs and the ammo is tight (there's just enough to kill everything). The heal pool will fire 20 times before becoming inert. There's a nasty bug whereby if a monster stands in it they can use up your heals - that's why I stuck a fence there ;) You can also waste heals if you try to use it whilst pented. I tried to make a hacked healer but couldn't get it to work for some reason, probably a typo somewhere.
At first I tried to build over the top of the original but it just produced alot of mess - so I restarted from scratch.
I Would
#22 posted by Text_Fish [82.32.1.90] on 2007/03/12 21:29:56
be interested in a 'remake/tribute' orientated turtlemap event, if one were to be organized.
I need something to get me back in to mapping now that the ole monitor's working again [sort of -- I have a desk fan pointed at it to stop it overheating :P], and the Base project looks far too messy to return to for the time being.
#23 posted by Ankh [82.160.155.18] on 2007/03/12 21:50:59
The heal pool will fire 20 times before becoming inert
Argh. before playing the map I have read some comments and I understood that the pool has limited health. So I didn't even try to gain max health each time I entered it. Now I see I did it the wrong way. Here is my unfinished demo. I died rather quick after a stupid mistake. http://shub-hub.quaddicted.com/fil...
Ah Ok
#24 posted by Ankh [212.2.99.36] on 2007/03/12 22:31:28
forget my previous post please
Health Packs
#25 posted by aguirRe [213.101.71.170] on 2007/03/13 00:37:08
IIRC there were two MHs as well; one at the SK and one near the exit.
#26 posted by golden_boy [89.27.252.220] on 2007/03/13 01:29:35
I like the map. I hope I didn't sound as if I didn't.
I just played Cassandra Calamity. There was a part where you walked down an empty hall towards a huge door, which suddenly began to close. I mean, most doors in Quake _open_ when you approach them. I thought that created some "tension". I also found the rest of it quite spooky, probably because of the darkness and the computer voice, and the absence of purpose (I repeatedly thought "what am I doing here? How did I get here?")
Another thing that seems to alert me are spinning fans in otherwise empty areas. Sadly not possible in standard Quake. Also very scary was the tank coming out of the exit (!) lift in the Quake2 demo. Alien-type stuff.
You (whoever said it) are right about inexplicable things being scary. However, if those cavernous rooms are filled with a horde of monsters and are nicely lit so you can see the monsters (the norm in Quake), the impact gets lost.
Anyway, people might be scared by different things. Even if I doubt it. I think all human animals can be scared with the same simple methods.
More Offtopic
#27 posted by scar3crow [151.141.79.35] on 2007/03/13 02:09:35
I was so disappointed that the tank didnt appear at the end of base2 in Q2 like it did in the demo, it is such a good close.
I think Im gonna replay Cassandra Calamity, its been... since the release date that I last played it.
Crap this thread keeps giving me map ideas. If only itd give me some mapping motivation.
Ill give the e4m4 remake a go when I get off of work.
One Q2 Map
#28 posted by ijed [190.82.51.199] on 2007/03/13 14:24:44
I made had the tank as end boss coming through the wall (smashing it) then the standard arena combat with four pillars for the player to hide behind. The difference was that the tank had homing rockets and the thick pillars were slowly chopped down to thin sticks when hit by the tanks attacks. Not all in one go but bit by bit. It was pretty hair-raising, and a different type of fear.
Just wish I hadn't lost the HD it was on.
DRAT!
#29 posted by generic [76.3.8.90] on 2007/03/16 13:35:12
I haven't tried this one yet due to the following errors while loading the map:
TOO MANY EFRAGS!
...
TOO MANY EFRAGS!
HOST_ERROR: TOO MANY STATIC ENTITIES
Any help would be greatly appreciated ;-)
Generic
#30 posted by ijed [190.82.53.101] on 2007/03/16 14:22:02
Yeah, I know - sorry. AFAIK fitzquake or DarkPlaces will run the map. I tested for Aguire's Nehahra engine, which'll run it no problem (as will the standard glquake version). I put it in the readme but to run it in the Nehahra version;
-id1 -game qouth
Is the commandline you need.
Than
#31 posted by Shambler [82.47.200.30] on 2007/03/22 23:03:56
You are a disgrace!
(Admittedly E4 is the weakest episode....even so!)
P.S.
#32 posted by Shambler [82.47.200.30] on 2007/03/28 13:00:08
I tried this, I died a couple of times and gave up. I need to use quicksave more, or try harder.
#33 posted by ijed [190.82.53.193] on 2007/03/28 16:07:32
It's more difficult than standard maps, especially with the Qouth critters. There's no standard knights, for example, just the Death Brigade. I also replaced some points that originally had Fiends with Droles.
Try AguirRe's coop2 mode, it replaces Qouth creatures with the standard Id versions.
:|
#34 posted by ijed [190.82.53.193] on 2007/03/28 17:21:00
Apologies, coop2 isn't available.
Though the coop starts are in the map, and that'll make it more forgiving playwise.
I didn't do any external beta testing for the gameplay; which is why it's pitched too high. Although I did modify the end boss - the quantity is the same as the skill number, apart from nightmare.

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