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Posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/06 01:07:55

This time I'm definitively damned for sure... I wasted 17 days of fullvis just to generate HOMs that did not exist on the fastvis version of this project...
So after one year of work, I decided to release it as is... without trying to solve HOMs, regarding the uncertainty about any HOM solving after 17 days of fullvis process...
The action takes place on Earth, in a military base. Your mission is to enter the base, disable the nuclear reactor, and escape... alive as far as possible...
First I have several warnings:
1/ the map is fastvised, so you may experiment dome framerate drop down in some area
2/ This map exceeds 6 standard engine values, so you' prefer to play it with either aguirRe's GLQuake, or FitzQuake0.85
3/ This map requires Quoth2 mod.
Screenshots:
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
Donwload
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
Website
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
As usual, feedback and comments are welcome ;)
Enjoy !
UPDATE:
After readung the first set of comments, I've added an alternate download link for the fullvis version of the map (that contains .bsp and .lit file only) here http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
Please moderators add the link in the thread top post ;)
The HOMs are located in the reactor area... mainly (there are 2 big there) and a small one in after the SK door, before the first stairs..
Also, just a note I'd like to add: the maps rewards a lot exploration, as there are 14 secrets...
Thanks a lot for the encouragement ;)

Hmm...
#1 posted by metlslime [64.175.155.252] on 2009/03/06 01:57:31
if the HOMs are few enough, it might be better to have HOMs but much lower r_speeds.
Another pro tip with small-sized gaps, HOMs, etc. is to cover them with a spawned object (rock or bush or crate, depending on the game.) I know you can't add a brush model without rebuilding the bsp, but you could spawn other types of mapobjects with the quoth code.
That aside, I beta tested this map, it's a pretty cool map, nice big setpieces, good sense of place, some fun exploration for secrets.
Flickering Lights
#2 posted by yhe1 [71.110.178.172] on 2009/03/06 03:15:20
In SRC, I noticed you marked some secrets with Flickering lights. Are there anything like this in this map? I must play this map with r_flatlightstyles 1 and can't see the lights.
#3 posted by nitin [124.168.19.246] on 2009/03/06 04:29:36
18MB bsp?? this must be some sort of monster :)
Sure It Is!
#4 posted by MadFox [84.26.168.11] on 2009/03/06 06:33:32
a Ford Brilliant, I'm defenitely sure about it.
I used all my whishing spells, acracadabra's and it blew the witty ends out of me.
Only made it on easy skill as that Quoth monsters are sharp, especially in narrow combats.
But the architecture is nice done and the largeness made me feel more like an episode.
It can be a hard ace that fast vis and later find some homs.
Seventeen days is quiet long, but in this case it is more than worth.
You did a big job JPL!
Hipnotic?
#5 posted by pope [99.199.28.209] on 2009/03/06 07:00:58
you say it needs Quoth2
but in the readme you also list adding
"-hipnotic" to the command line?
I Believe
#6 posted by dooomer [125.109.97.173] on 2009/03/06 07:37:14
the -hipnotic in the commandline is just for enabling the correct status bar.
What Metl Said
#7 posted by bleh [85.176.84.215] on 2009/03/06 08:00:34
I'd rather go with some HOMs than shitty performance. Besides, gl_clear might make it bearable, especially if one chooses an appropriate r_clearcolor to roughly match the environment.
Can't you at least release the fullvised version as an alternative download?
R_speeds Aside
#8 posted by nitin [124.168.19.246] on 2009/03/06 08:03:52
you have to really admire the ambition. Huge map, with great sense of place and lighting. Did get lost quite a bit and progression is spotty at best but very enjoyable apart from the slowdowns.
Can anything be done to fix that?
Alternate Download
#9 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/06 09:24:43
Well,
After readung the first set of comments, I've added an alternate download link for the fullvis version of the map (that contains .bsp and .lit file only) here http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
Please moderators add the link in the thread top post ;)
The HOMs are located in the reactor area... mainly (there are 2 big there) and a small one in after the SK door, before the first stairs..
Also, just a note I'd like to add: the maps rewards a lot exploration, as there are 14 secrets...
Thanks a lot for the encouragement ;)
#2
#10 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/06 09:34:46
You should enable the feature yes, as some secrets are located with flashlights... but the flashlights are not the trigger... :)
First Impression
#11 posted by jakub [89.176.218.117] on 2009/03/06 19:47:09
i've just finished full-vised version of the map and it's really monster. first run took me almost an hour. thanks for this map jpl. it's impresive piece of quake art. i've played with darkplaces and find only one bug: can't say exactly where but in one place there was a missing texture and was possible to look outside/inside the level. please, keep mapping :)
#12 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.75] on 2009/03/06 20:01:34
Not my kind of map so I won't criticise. ;)
Except for the lighting which I found a bit too dark.
Oh and I find it a bit weird to get off from a ladder, had lots of trouble at one fight with that.
I think a map like this would be great in Half-Life. Split into 2-3 smaller ones and with clear objectives.
http://www.quaddicted.com/stuff/fo...
#13 posted by necros [99.227.108.217] on 2009/03/06 23:55:33
very nice use of ambient sounds. it's good to hear some new sounds for a map, especially one that moves so far away from most maps.
played on normal, wasn't too hard. felt just right, actually. good use of all the different base reskins. i died at the end though, from one of my own quadded grenades. :S i don't think the fight would have been impossible or anything, it's just that i was backpedaling and i lobbed a grenade just as a scrag flew above me.
consistent brushwork with a good mix of doom3 and i think hl, hl2 textures? made for a solid looking map. some railings looked too think though, but that's more a limitation of the engine.
n1. :)
http://necros.quaddicted.com/temp/...
More Time
#14 posted by ijed [190.20.73.114] on 2009/03/07 18:25:16
Downloading the bsp than the entire Quoth pack - it must be a behamoth.
I Need More Time
#15 posted by rudl [85.126.193.66] on 2009/03/07 19:42:21
Can't wait to play this.
Shots look nice
Excellent Map
#16 posted by Orl [76.98.214.54] on 2009/03/08 03:52:44
Really great stuff. The tank and the truck sitting at the front gate at the start were superb. I have never seen a tank look that good in Quake before. You went all out with the details and it really paid off.
The rest of the map was also splendid with plenty of heavy firefights and exploration with some good lighting and textures.
The many ambient sound effects really added to the experience. Plenty of sounds I recognized from Doom 3.
My only complaint is that the beginning of the map is VERY hard on skill 2. I must have died about 10 times before I got plenty of health and better weapons.
But other than that, awesome work. Will surely play again, because I only played the fast vis one, and now that you released the full vis map I will give it another go with no framerate drops :)
Thanks !
#17 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/08 09:11:21
jakub: Thanks for comment, and also thanks for the DarkPlace testing: it is a good info that DP didn't crash ;)
Spirit / necros: thanks a lot for the demos. I started to watch it, but I need more time... as it is quite long demo ;)
Orl: Thank for the feedback. I already had this comment that the beginning was quite hard, and I already reduced the monster count twice there (outside, first part of the bunker, till the first crate storage area...)
More details are writen in the txt file about textures and sound: please read it ;)
To summarize, I've used Half Life texture (95%), Doom3 texture set (4%) and some from Kell's fury (1%). Regarding the sounds, most of them come from Doom3 and have been already used by distrans' Ruined Nation map. I reworked them with reverb addition, low pass filtering and bass amplification.. There are also some of COD2, and some I found on the Free Sound Project website (http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/ )
I'm glad the first set of comment is positive. thanks a lot for your support !
I'll come back with a new map... "soon"... (depending of the new monster I start :P )
Forgot To Mention...
#18 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/08 12:25:57
...that tank, truck and fork-lift are Half-Life prefabs I found there: http://www.snarkpit.net/
While the prefabs were already "textured", I had to work a lot to improve their respective initial look, as texture placement is a little bit different between Quake and HL... ;)
Jpl
#19 posted by nitin [124.168.19.246] on 2009/03/08 14:22:53
the bad r_speeds version is the way to go unfortumately, the HOMS are too noticeable.
great map still.
#20 posted by yhe1 [140.144.202.70] on 2009/03/08 17:08:48
can somebody post screenshots of the HOMs?
HOMs Shots
#21 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/08 17:45:16
First one visible from the crates tunnel (can be open from the first storage crate area in the bunker): http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
Same HOM visible from the inside of central reactor: http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
There's also a HOM in a part the player cannot go, except flying: http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
The last one can be visible after the SK door, just before the stairs up, in your back: http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
Too much visible in a fullvis version... :P
#22 posted by yhe1 [140.144.202.70] on 2009/03/08 20:31:12
This is with gl_clear 1?
No
#23 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/08 20:55:13
Tres Bien Fait, Monsieur!
#24 posted by jdhack [75.155.125.139] on 2009/03/09 05:40:12
Very impressive level - the attention to detail was amazing, and gameplay was tense & exciting. There was a good sense of purpose & direction, and even though the map was huge, it was "revealed" slowly so it wasn't overwhelming.
I played the fullvis version; I noticed the HOMs but they weren't too distracting, and I had good framerates throughout. Lighting was excellent - I especially liked all the floor lights which gave everything an eerie feel. My only complaint is that the brown tunnel areas were too dark to see much of anything.
On my first run, I did okay until the final battle outside. Then I got a little reckless with the quad and died. Played on skill 2, and got 7/14 secrets. Second run, I was more careful at the end, and finished quite easily. Got 12 secrets this time.
There were only 2 secrets that I probably would've died without: the early health stash behind the glass, and the plasma gun. The others just made things a little less stressful.
I would have liked to have seen some breakable objects (the crates in particular, but maybe some doors or air vents). I guess because the map had a real HL/RTCW feel to it, I kinda expected it. Other than that, I thoroughly enjoyed it!
#25 posted by necros [99.227.108.217] on 2009/03/09 18:35:59
I would have liked to have seen some breakable objects (the crates in particular, but maybe some doors or air vents). I guess because the map had a real HL/RTCW feel to it, I kinda expected it. Other than that, I thoroughly enjoyed it!
i noticed that too. i've been conditioned to want to break crates regardless of game. o.o
OMG HL + QUOTH BASE.
#26 posted by Shambler [82.47.200.132] on 2009/03/09 22:03:01
Just what I always wanted in a Quake map.
#27 posted by yhe1 [140.144.175.79] on 2009/03/09 22:09:10
is there a command to set the gl clear color to black to minimize the results of the HOM?
#28 posted by Spirit [80.171.128.114] on 2009/03/09 22:38:10
Depends on the engine, check the documentation for *void* or *clear* variables.
Le Stuff...
#29 posted by robot [209.29.44.219] on 2009/03/09 23:19:14
Still didn't finish Fort Driant, but I have to say that it's like a Marcher Fortress epic. Really interesting vehicle brushwork, and ambient sounds. The whole level has a mystery about it that has to be explored.
If this was my map I'd still polish it up for a final version. JPL, this world has tons of computers doing nothin. So go down to a local BestBuy and load 20 different map versions of your level to compile, and come back 17 days later! Nobody at BestBuy will know what the hell is going on anyways.
Map Notes
At around the 100 monster mark, I heard a total of 3 times that a nearby enemy (behind walls or something) had gotten gibbed for no apparent reason. It sounds like they are spawning inside other monsters, or a triger_hurt of 1000 damage. I dunno what's happening cause I can't see them.
I didn't know that HOM's were created after the vis process. HOM's are the only error I never got in my maps... yet. In FD-HOM3.jpg, would a brush added in front of that corner get rid of the HOM? And also, maybe try omiting the cutout views at FD-HOM1.jpg/FD-HOM2.jpg? Cutout windows don't have to be everywhere. That FD-HOM4.jpg can be walked into, giving all kinds of leak visuals. Maybe replacing brushes there, or deleting that area is a fix.
Lastly, that elevator disappears when viewed at the bottom, from a short distance. Check that all the elevator entity brushes are inside the level, or just delete the pulley cable. There's not that much brush data up there to vis-block against, so the elevator should be visable. Something's funny with the elevator's brushes.
Another thing, the eagle's head on that presidential emblem is visable in Aguirre's engine but almost invisable in Fitz?
Overall, excellent brushwork, lighting, sounds and gameplay... Way to go!
:Spirit
#30 posted by [140.144.202.70] on 2009/03/10 00:44:56
The engine is Fitzquake 0.85, I can't even find the word "void" in the documentation.
#31 posted by metlslime [64.175.155.252] on 2009/03/10 01:13:43
r_clearcolor
#32 posted by yhe1 [71.110.178.172] on 2009/03/10 05:39:21
what value is black?
Well,
#33 posted by HeadThump [4.136.90.112] on 2009/03/10 07:12:24
what value is black?
the penultimate achievement in American art was Davis' early 70's release, Bitches Brew, so that is a start.
#34 posted by yhe1 [71.110.178.172] on 2009/03/10 07:17:29
I am sorry, I don't get that. The documentation said default is 2, so does that mean 2 = Grey? Thx
Yhe1
#35 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2009/03/10 08:18:29
try gl_clear 1 in the console
Yhe1:
#36 posted by metlslime [24.130.223.174] on 2009/03/10 08:18:32
the numbers for r_clearcolor specify a color index in the quake palette. 0 is black, 1-15 are shades of grey, etc.
Mixed Bag.
#37 posted by the silent [82.185.144.141] on 2009/03/10 08:50:56
Mixed bag.
That is this level, for me. Obviously, it's architecturally stunning and very satisfyingly explorable. 14 secrets well mixed and generally helpful. Maybe too much.
Sure, this wealth of supplies (if u find the secrets) lets you go in head first without worrying too much about saving ammo, but it feels a bit unbalanced.
The real, let's say let down, for me is gameplay. After a somewhat challenging start, by the time you come back from getting the blue key, it is all over. Nice and varied as they are, Quoth base monsters are still base monsters, at the core, i.e. cannon fodder.
RL and SNG are pure overkill. A lot less Ammo would have been maybe better, given the quantity of it that you get from any monster in the level.
Monter placement is a bit flawed, too, IMHO... Packs of edies and grunts can be disposed of with ease from a distance, the central area is a piece of candy to pass through and go back...
The end battle is nasty, on paper, but if you find the right strategy (I did by accident on my 1st romp through) is easy as it gets, just a matter of time. Recurring waves of monsters would have limited infighting given more of a challenge to the player, maybe...
I played on skill 3 and did a 353/353, 7/14, 38:something on 1st run. Died 3 times.
On 2nd romp, I did 100% secrets and kills. Strangely, the door after the collapsed bridge did not close after I got in, allowing for some backtracking and secret hunting...
I dunno... I love it and I don't... Mixed Bag.
I'll post a full run demo later, if anyone's interested...
Quoth.
#38 posted by Shambler not logged in [82.47.200.132] on 2009/03/10 10:56:02
The real, let's say let down, for me is gameplay. After a somewhat challenging start, by the time you come back from getting the blue key, it is all over. Nice and varied as they are, Quoth base monsters are still base monsters, at the core, i.e. cannon fodder.
Don't really agree with that. Quoth base enemies are a pain in the arse, I'd rather face medium level Quake enemies most of the time.
Sniping from a distance is all very well if: 1. They are at a distance and not crowded round the top of a very slow sticky ladder you're climbing and 2. Actually visible cos most of the enemies in this map seemed to be lurking the dark spots.
Not that that's always a problem but I don't think gameplay can be glossed over because it's "just" "base" enemies.
Sniping.
#39 posted by the silent [82.185.144.141] on 2009/03/10 11:09:35
You're right, Sham...
But, having a RL, GL and almost infinite supply of ammo for those, everything becomes quite... Well, you know...
Anytime you hear a suspicious sound, all you have to do is lob some 10 grenades in the hole you heard it come from and you're done. Then you just have to go in a finish off the job with 1/2 SSG shots...
I was referring to the rather large groups of grunts you get to meet while making your way up to the reactor... You take them out without breaking a sweat... Same with Edies on your way back...
But I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, it's just that I had the feeling this was quite easy on NM, and I consider myself a below average player...
But,hey, this is a great level! Maybe it's just me growing up and playing sober. My aim improved dramatically!!!!
Lol
#40 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.18.131] on 2009/03/10 11:32:25
Thinking of TheSilent at the age of 17 playing Quake drunk all the time and dieing
You're Too Kind, Ricky!!!
#41 posted by the silent [82.185.144.141] on 2009/03/10 12:01:26
When I was 17, Quake was still 10 years down the road...
Had to settle with playing with myself... ;P
Well...
#42 posted by Shambler [82.47.200.132] on 2009/03/10 12:06:13
But I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, it's just that I had the feeling this was quite easy on NM, and I consider myself a below average player...
You're wrong on that, you're not a below average player that's for sure. Having read your comments elsewhere and on this, it's obvious you're well above average.
This felt reasonably tough on Skill2 and I assume that being a base map Skill3 is definitely harder. It's not too tough by any stretch IMO though, just tough enough.
Anyway, I do agree about the RL, it is all over once one gets that. The GL, hmmm, I was being careful using it. I don't think the terrain is always conducive to it in this map.
(blushes)
#43 posted by the silent [82.185.144.141] on 2009/03/10 13:40:17
Aw... well... thanks.
As a matter of fact, you get the RL fairly soon, if you hunt it down.
The same in APSP2, for instance, but the shortage of ammo and the environmental hazards made up for a much more balanced experience IMO.
GL is the key to this level. Especially the ending.
Tonight I'll record a demo, so you can see what I mean.
For now, thanks for your rather high consideration of my skills.
And thanks JPL for a great level!
Jdhack / Robot / Shambler / The Silent
#44 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/10 19:40:40
jdhack:
Thnaks for the positive comments. I had some comments about breakable objetcs made by negke during beta testing, but due to my lazyness (after 1 year of work, I've been quite pissed off the map :P) I didn't add some: my mistake...
robot: Again, thanks for the feedback. I noticed also lately the elevator issue in the fullvis version. My problem is that I don't know why it is not present (i.e HOMs and elevator desapearing) in fastvised version, and present in fullvis version. aguirRe told me some ime ago it may happen for some dark reasons he is not even aware of... Maybe it is due to the map size... not sure.... I also didn't notice the eagle's head issue... anyway...
Shambler: I need feedback: go play the map and provide it please ;)
the silent: I'm glad you enjoyed the map, as regarding your first set of comments it was not obvious ;) the more about gameplay... Well, you maybe should try to play the map without the secrets, then it will be a different story, believe me... and for sure you ar not an average player, as you found the 14 secrets: good job !!
Overall, thanks everybody for the valuable feedback :D
Disappearing Elevator
#45 posted by jdhack [75.155.125.139] on 2009/03/11 06:38:11
If I remember correctly, this happens if a brush model is so large that it spans >1 vis leaf. I'm not sure if it's a bug/limitation in qbsp or vis or the engines themselves (although I think DarkPlaces has a workaround). I don't know if there's anything a mapper can do to avoid it...
Probably with the fast vis, the map was divided into fewer vis leafs, so the lift ended up being contained within one area.
[Note that this is all theorizing based on vague memories, so don't hold me to it]
Jdhack
#46 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2009/03/11 08:00:42
No problem, at least you provided a possible explanation of the issue ;)
I however have a stupid question (maybe): why all these issues are visible in the fullvis version, and not in the fastvis version ? It is weird because as far as I understood the fullvis processing, it is much about face / volume rendering optimization... How can the process can generate such thing ?
PS: I will ask aguirRe in paralell BTW ;)
Jpl
#47 posted by gb [89.27.223.63] on 2009/03/11 12:21:26
As jdhack said, in the fastvis version the visleafs are bigger, thus the elevator/whatever problematic things are likely not spanning more than one leaf.
Pretty reasonable explanation if you ask me.
The solution would be to change the brushwork so fewer portals/leaves are created in the problematic areas, ie make it simpler, or smaller, or optimize vis blocking.
I think.
You simply hit the limits there.
Nope
#48 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2009/03/11 13:19:20
You cut it into two pieces - so if its a func wall you make it two separate func walls.
If its a vertical lift then maybe there's something else going on, since vertical spaces are ignored by the vis process.
I still haven't been able to play, but will.
Ah
#49 posted by gb [89.27.203.36] on 2009/03/11 13:51:15
Smart.
Problem
#50 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2009/03/11 14:12:04
You don't know exactly where the vis leafs start and end (maybe some engine has the option to draw these) so you don't know where to cut your entity.
Basically the center point of your entity designates which vis leaf it's in, if you're stood in a visleaf that can't see the one that your entity is in then the engine doesn't draw it.
So the physical size of the thing doesn't matter, only dimensions of the vis leaf that it's center is in.
#51 posted by Spirit [80.171.29.78] on 2009/03/11 14:13:14
The overlord of the Dark Places can be summoned with r_showportals 1. I guess those are the VIS leafes.
#52 posted by Spirit [80.171.29.78] on 2009/03/11 14:15:14
No. It's r_drawportals and those are something different. Still fancy.
Other Options
#53 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2009/03/11 15:00:09
Would be to consider on the elevator cage, and add rails on sides of the elevator pipe... removing the huge "cable" on top of the elevator cage...
Anyway: I got this reply from aguirRe:
"These symptoms are both caused by the same thing, namely that a fastvised map is not as accurate (or efficient) as a fullvised map. A fastvised map will typically force the engine to render more of the map and this has several implications.
The main thing is obviously that the map renders more slowly (high r_speeds in-game), but this will also hide portal problems, e.g. HOMs or flickering bmodels. That's why an unvised map can't have any portal-related HOMs or flickering bmodels (the latter being caused by them spanning too many leafs).
With the fullvised map, rendering will usually be much more efficient, meaning that the engine can now skip rendering of objects that are behind other objects. However, skipping rendering basically means that there will now be a HOM in that spot, but theoretically (and hopefully) hidden by an object in the foreground.
If something went wrong in the vis calculations (due to portal problems), the HOM won't be hidden and therefore you notice it. The same goes for the flickering func_train; in the fastvised version the entire train is always rendered, which is slower, but less error-prone.
So the basic idea is that if all vis calculations are correct, the fullvised map will look the same as the fastvised version, but will be much more efficient for the engine.
If it wasn't obvious back then, I actually feared that your CDA map would exhibit HOMs after the 1200+ hour run and you'd might face another huge run after that (ugh ...). You were lucky then and it came out well, but this time you weren't so lucky.
This is the main reason why I recommend aborting long fullvis runs; if there are portal problems in the result, you'll be facing another long run after trying to fix the issues. Cutting down to a more reasonable duration of a few days or even better a few hours, will reduce the frustration enormously.
Having huge fullvis times is just very impractical, since the whole build process is imperfect, mainly due to the floating point inaccuracies that are accumulated during the literally billions of calculations. There are most likely also algorithmic errors in the qbsp/vis programs.
In some cases, you might even consider releasing a map entirely unvised, if the fullvised version has many errors and the fastvis data is huge and still doesn't make much difference in rendering efficiency. Of course, it still sounds unprofessional to release a large, unvised map ... Part of the map mastery is to keep the map efficient and still visually complex and impressive.
While playing through a lot of Q2 maps, I've noticed many similar issues, here often caused by misconfigured "area-portals", i.e. doors that actually block vis when they're closed. Some maps are also released fastvised, which will make even a fast P4 hot and bothered. A lot of mappers have had these issues during the years ...
"
So the explanations provided by jdhack are correct ;)
Well, I'll try (I cannot promise :P ) to not make another monster like this in the future: it is too much deceiving at the end :(
When I'm Mapping..... (lol)
#54 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.18.131] on 2009/03/11 15:10:58
I guess I try and keep things on a 32x32 grid really.
Sometimes a 16x32, and occasionally less.
When doing some rocky terrain or uneven brushwork using the fabled "triangle techique" I also try and keep that on points of a 32x32 grid.
And small details are generally func_illusionaries, and any little details in the actual brushwork will be on as much of a larger grid as possible, trying to keep individual points on an 8x8 grid here and there, perhaps contained within a rectangular section.
This is because it has been explained to me that the qbsp process has to break the map up into vis-leaves (or leafs maybe) and more importantly clipnodes which are chunks of the physical hull(s) of the maps - so either way if you dont want to incur bugs (of which there are an awful lot) then its best to try and keep these as simple and easy to digest as possible.
"r_showtris 1" on the console in Fitzquake will show you the marksurfaces which to a degree will match some of the outlines of these leafs and clipnodes described above of the actual model (the core "map" as it were)
the portals are the double faces of two adjacent leafs. the visleafs are the spaces between the portals (and at the outskirts of the leafs the marksurfaces i guess)
I guess thats what the vis process does - find out which leafs can be seen from each leaf so as to exclude the unnecessary ones.
Keeping it simple and "on grid" as possible is probably the best way of avoiding such issues. Sometimes bugs in the qbsp output relate to the float issue - the idea of having points of the map on a hypohetical grid size of fractions rather than integers - and a warning may be shown in the qbsp log during the process but it doesn't cause any actual crashes so everything seems fine, even when fas-vised or not vised. But you cant tell what the behaviour will be like after a level 4 vis, when everything has been as optimised as possible.
None of this means you can't have scale though. You can make the brushes as big as you like :)
ramblings.....
#55 posted by gb [89.27.203.36] on 2009/03/11 15:32:08
Bengt speaks wisely...
JPL, how about using a hub system, or chopping a big map into several smaller ones like you did with Five Rivers Land. So it feels like one big area, while in reality it's made from several pieces.
This would avoid the insanely long fullvis times (and each part wouldn't break any limits, either). There would be loading screens between parts though.
The problem with a hub approach is that you can't have one big coherent (outdoor) area like in CDA...
Carved In Flesh
#56 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.18.131] on 2009/03/11 15:41:30
go play it again! Steep cliffs. soe too.
Gb
#57 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2009/03/11 15:43:16
It has been proposed during beta testing, but unfortunately, the map interconnects are not really helpfull for a split tentative..
Five Rivers Land was more suitable, as more linear in its architecture... hence the easy split...
Well, I will try to not do monster map next time ;)
Couple Of Things
#58 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2009/03/11 15:50:46
clipnodes are affected by collisionable space - so if you have a load of stuff built on a small grid you'll have lots of clipnodes, even though nothing but a grenade or nail will be able to properly touch the detail.
If you want to keep the detail then the solution is metslime's skip tool - enclose all the stuff in a skip brush, meaning you can still see it fine but the processor doesn't waste time figuring out that a Shambler won't fit in there.
Whis is of course what you should do anyway with noclip brushes so that the player doesn't get stuck on geometry.
This is moving into guesswork but noclip affects hull's 1+2, so even just using that should reduce clipnodes.
Let's say you've got a complex corridor with lots of detail, but essentially it's a rectangle. Enclosing the walls ceiling and floor in four no clip brushes will reduce the clipnodes whilst leaving the thing exactly the same visually and without any irritating snags for monsters or player to get caught on.
Also Ricky, something I noticed in e4m1 - trigger brushes have their touch box set by their bounding box, not their brush. So if you have a diagonal trigger then its actually still just a rectangle. The same would apply to a circular trigger - it's still the square defined by the bounding box.
#59 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2009/03/11 16:22:46
Oh yeah, clip brushes can greatly cut down on your clip nodes. You need to experiment some but generally if you can wrap 3+ brushes in a clip brush, it's a net win in terms of clip nodes.
#60 posted by gb [89.27.203.36] on 2009/03/11 17:12:15
It has been proposed during beta testing, but unfortunately, the map interconnects are not really helpfull for a split tentative..
Yeah, you would have to plan the map as a hub from the start. Just like Q2 maps.
Hmm
#61 posted by Preach [217.44.87.35] on 2009/03/11 20:43:38
I'm pretty sure if you enclose surfaces in a skip brush, then the surfaces get clipped away by the compiler, because the BSP compiler itself doesn't know that skip is a special texture(the skip tool is run after BSP compilation). Although you can very carefully place skip brushes to simplify a surface's collision without actually colliding the faces behind, that's going to leave all the clipnodes and leafs in place. You may also have problems when you try to run vis on this.
Placing clip brushes does better, because they are disregarded by the compiler during the part of the build process concerned with visible faces. So that does get rid of clipnodes(usually). But because they are disregarded during the face generation process, they can't affect the number of leafs which are made by the visible faces.
The only way to reduce the number of leafs in the bsp, which are the convex spaces which are used for vis calculations, is to reduce the complexity of the geometry. This option does include offloading the complex geometry into a func_wall or func_illusionary and leaving simple geometry in the actual level to plug the hole. The advantages and disadvantages of this are well known.
#53 "floating Point Inaccuracies"
#62 posted by robot [209.29.44.67] on 2009/03/11 22:32:03
That's the main reason I'm trying out the BSP editor, especially when maps can get this big. It's amazing it all works out anyways. But like I mentioned (or if there are any floating point inaccuracies in the elevator brushes)check your elevator brushes. In the elevator's worldspawn position, if some of its brushes are out of the level, you got a leak and can expect the elevator to disappear. So just by stepping back those protruding bands in the elevator shaft (say by 4 units) you are assuring nothing is out of the level. If the elevator is okay though, eliminating the cable (or making it a separate entity) might do the trick.
This game can handle really big moving entities though. Even a 300 brush walk-in multi level section that is 1500L by 700W by 700H and is 1/5th of a level won't disappear.
Oh yea, don't cut this map up! It's best as it is.
Correction
#63 posted by robot [209.29.44.87] on 2009/03/11 23:10:21
That should have been "In the elevator's qbsp's compiled position," not worldspawn position!!!
I goof...
#64 posted by metlslime [64.175.155.252] on 2009/03/11 23:46:32
This dissapearing entity problem is happening in one of my maps, and I now realize the problem is thanks to what people are saying above. It's not a huge entity, but it seems (using r_showboxes) that func_rotate_trains, when far away from the map origin, end up with a HUGE bounding box, which means they pretty much overlap most of the visleafs in the level.
P.S. I doubt that the max number of visleafs an entity can touch is only 1, but it makes sense that it might be a low number. I will have to look into it. (For static entities, the fix is to increase MAX_VISEDICTS but, dynamic entities work differently. Also, you'd think it was related to MAX_EFRAGS but increasing that alone doesn't seem to solve it.)
If you want to keep the detail then the solution is metslime's skip tool - enclose all the stuff in a skip brush, meaning you can still see it fine but the processor doesn't waste time figuring out that a Shambler won't fit in there.
This is correct except you mean clip brush, not skip brush. Skip brush will have the wrong effect, as Preach said.
Yeah
#65 posted by ijed [190.20.121.3] on 2009/03/12 01:32:56
I realised afterwards that anything inside a skip would just be removed anyway.
#62
#66 posted by bear [94.255.214.78] on 2009/03/12 11:40:37
Switching editor won't save you from the floating point inaccuracies that aguire talk about.
Bear
#67 posted by robot [209.29.44.22] on 2009/03/13 03:21:01
Well, for map brushes there are no float coordinates in a BSP .map file anyways. That has to be a reason I do not get HOM's. I'm not familiar with Quark, but I've opened some Quark generated .map files people submitted from the net, and seen brushes with coodinates like 31.999998 or something. Did someone acually align a brush to that point (there's no reason)? More likely I would have placed it at 32!
#68 posted by necros [99.227.108.217] on 2009/03/13 04:09:29
you just need to disable the floating point variable in quark to get rid of that.
You May Kneel Before Me And Call Me God...
#69 posted by jdhack [75.155.125.139] on 2009/03/13 05:44:56
For I have answered your prayers! Well, maybe not, but I did find the source of the disappearing-model problem.
The short version: it's an engine issue, and the fix is dead simple and doesn't seem to affect performance in any significant way. In progs.h, find the following line, and change 16 to a larger number (64 seems good to me):
#define MAX_ENT_LEAFS 16
See next post for full explanation.
The Long Version
#70 posted by jdhack [75.155.125.139] on 2009/03/13 05:46:21
It's not so simple, and raises at least as many questions as it answers. But here it goes:
When an entity is spawned, and whenever its location or size changes, Quake builds a list of all the leafs it touches. Then, each frame, it checks if any of these leafs are visible from the player's current position (using the data from the vis util). The problem is that the size of each entity's touched-leaf list is limited to MAX_ENT_LEAFS (16). So even if it touches more than 16 leafs, it uses only the first 16 it finds.
JPL's elevator model, in its "down" position, touches 38 leafs. Now, first of all, this sounds ridiculously high. Secondly, this number is the same in both the fullvis version and the fastvis. So why does it do the disappearing trick in the fullvis, but not in the fastvis? Is it just the luck of which 16 leafs make it into the entity's touched list? (I don't know the answer)
The other surprising discovery was that in this map, there are a fair number of other entities that touch more than 16 leafs. (A shambler with 21, a gug with 28, a ladder with 42, etc.) In fact, I found that even in the original id maps, there is the occasional entity that hits this limit. Yet they all draw fine. WTF?
Anyway, increasing this limit from 16 to 64 eliminates the problem from fort_driant-fullvis. As well, it also fixes the disappearing/flickering model problem in other maps (including the original release of Ricky's sickbase).
#71 posted by gb [89.27.246.242] on 2009/03/13 09:03:34
...
... Quake.
And That's Why
#72 posted by Spirit [213.39.203.120] on 2009/03/13 09:46:16
jdhack is the greatest Quake engine coder ever.
Robot:
#73 posted by bear [94.255.215.22] on 2009/03/13 10:51:48
regardless if there are any floating point coordinates in the .map file or not it doesn't stop the compiler from using floating point in it's calculations.
mainly due to the floating point inaccuracies that are accumulated during the literally billions of calculations.
It should be possible to change the tools to be less numerically error-prone but that would also most likely make them take even longer time.
Great Job
#74 posted by ericw [129.128.29.120] on 2009/03/13 16:45:45
Great work, JPL! This was quite a monster to play!
I played on normal difficulty, finished with all kills but one, and only 2/14 secrets! Must have taken 45 minutes or so. The fastvis version with fitz085 ran fine for me (7600gt, at 1920x1200).
Just the grand scale of this map made it awesome, but there were lots of details I liked. The use of flamethrower guys (especially the ones at the fort entrance that attack you through the windows) - that was the most enjoyment I've had encountering that enemy so far in Quoth. I enjoyed the theme and textures too - sort of a HL/D3 fusion feel.
A few suggestions - the button texture wasn't obviously a button to me, at first. The passageways in the fort were a bit narrow and difficult to navigate, and the high number of buttons made it hard to know what they were doing, sometimes. I was also hoping for (maybe this is hard to believe) more climactic fighting once I got to the top of the reactor and started heading back to the start. Maybe I needed to play on hard ;) Having the quad + RL made quick work of the last fight :)
How Do You Calculate The Leafs ?
#75 posted by robot [209.29.44.94] on 2009/03/13 17:50:47
That sounds like good debugging info. Do you type r_showtris 1 and count something (?) in the triangles, or the number of triangles?
Ericw / Robot
#76 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/13 17:57:48
@ericw: Cool you enjoyed the map ;) BTW, as I already said, the exploration is heavily rewarded.. Also, the fact that "too many buttons, kill the buttons", is almost deliberate, as per the exploration reward context :P Anyway, glad you were able to play properly the fastvis-ed version of the map :)
@robot: The number of leaf is not important, what is important is the maximum visible lea, and if I remeber well this value is provided in one of the report (i.e TxQBSP or VIS, I don't remember exactely).
Bear
#77 posted by robot [209.29.44.12] on 2009/03/13 22:27:51
I finaly got clued in that the elevator in the fast vis .bsp was okay. So it would be okay in the full vis version if vis did not act differently. My reasoning and fixes were not relevant here. Maybe if I played the fast vis version I'd find out sooner. I'm learnin...
JPL, I'll try Aguirre's TxQBSP and vis.
Hi JPL
#78 posted by Ankh [88.199.103.6] on 2009/03/13 22:58:31
The map looks really cool. You have made a good job in copying a real bunker. I liked this place. The set pieces were very well done. The tank, crane, generator, also the tight tunnels. I liked to fight inside those tunnels. The combat was very nice in the first half of the map. Later it got difficult on hard with me finding almost no secrets.
All in all I enjoyed your map a lot.
Here is my demo. I have died strangely in a laser trap. I got inside it during a fight and tried to get out somehow with a jump...
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
Counting Leafs
#79 posted by jdhack [75.155.125.139] on 2009/03/14 02:33:12
If this question (#75) was wrt my post, I did it by running Quake via a debugger (MS Visual Studio). So, no, it's not something that's related to any engine feature.
#80 posted by Trinca [89.180.109.68] on 2009/03/14 10:02:33
Ok finally played, awesome map... during beta testing i never get far then the rook where the helicopter landing is, so end was a big surprise for me...
played on hard, loved the game play balance and the fucking great fun ending.
JPL maps smaller please... but this map doesn’t look big because the weapons were very well balancer to make the game play fast furious and fun :)
Thks my friend and there is goes my demo!
Start looking the demo after the roof... from that part i was in unknown lands!
http://trinca.quaddicted.com/temp/...
P.s.-> Sorry not to beta trsting the enought times you need it :| but my time is very very short.
Excellent Map!
#81 posted by generic [67.233.218.251] on 2009/03/14 16:19:33
You really captured the whole WWII bunker feel through good use of textures and architecture -- I especially liked the reactor room. The atmospheric noises were a nice touch too. I did think some breakable glass and "real" explosive crates could have helped though.
A few combat situations were a little annoying on Normal, such as Rocketeers popping up behind you; and the normal Quake monsters (e.g., Shamblers and Fiends) seemed out of place in such a base-heavy map. The end sequence was also a little too easy with the Quad, IMHO, but I liked how you craftily used Pyros and Sentinels in the rest of the map.
Did anyone else find it strange that you had to enter an infested enemy bunker and shut down a reactor just to get through the 128x128 door that you entered in from? Maybe I should read the text file... ;)
Only Me
#82 posted by MadFox [84.26.168.11] on 2009/03/14 20:22:07
when I ran like a christmass turkey, thinking the whole thing would explode like in one of the mission paks.
It could have been possible, but then you wouldn't have had the atraction of the monsters on the way back.
Ankh / Trinca / Generic
#83 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/15 18:37:43
@Ankh: Thanks a lot for the demo, I'll watch it this evening. Definitely, without secret it is a real challenge, and I'm glad you finish the map even with almost no secret ;)
@Trinca: Thanks a lot for the demo, I'll watch it this evening too.... and I promise to try to make smaller maps ;)... though... Regarding beta testing, it is not a problem, as I know you ahve to take care of your family, no problem, I understand :)
@generic: Indeed, you should have read the txt file before starting to play the map: it would have helped you to understand the context ;)
Thanks a lot for the feedback :D
#84 posted by Trinca [89.181.35.54] on 2009/03/15 19:49:50
this was a big map that had the feeling it wasn´t that much... weardo :| took me 40 minutes to finish on hard!
#85 posted by stevenaaus [124.185.241.153] on 2009/03/16 08:20:40
I liked the textures, quality, secrets and environs... Love the large electric fence, and the beehive like corridors towards the end.
> OMG HL + QUOTH BASE
Laugh.
It's a little unusual having a Q1 episode in a half-life envir, with all the Quoth badies around.
Stevenaaus
#86 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/03/21 10:14:12
I'm glad you enjoyed the map.... and I like to do unusual things with quake: I'm a little bit pissed of standard brown-ish quake environment, and standard quake bestiary. I really think Quoth has opened many areas that are not yet explored, and I'm trying, as far as possible, to explore some of them... Changes are good sometimes ;)
#87 posted by Trinca [89.181.75.118] on 2009/03/21 12:59:59
I usually don’t like much Quoth maps... to hard and slow...
But this map and the one necros did (living end) and fucking fast and furious!!!
Love then!
Keep the good work
This post was flagged as spam.
#88 posted by a spammer [116.71.168.97] on 2009/07/14 08:24:35
Goddamn It.
#89 posted by metlslime [71.202.219.105] on 2009/07/14 08:55:19
A Shame...
#90 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/07/14 19:48:54
.. the thread has been resurrected by a spamers... :P
Excellent Map
#91 posted by rudl [88.117.112.85] on 2009/08/25 23:24:33
I like the bunker theme a lot, very atmospheric.
The end was a bit easy (with two quad damage)
Shouldn't the reactor explode or something?
Rudl
#92 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2009/08/26 08:17:16
Shouldn't the reactor explode or something?
It would have been a good idea, but I don't know how I could have done this actually: it would have been a giant func_breakable + downcount + explosion sound to add... it is ossible with Quoth I guess...
Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed the map ;)
Wow!
#93 posted by dfsp_spirit [78.53.144.6] on 2009/11/20 15:12:06
I just played this and I gotta say it's impressive. I don't know anything about SP Q1 I gotta admit but I hadn't expected something like this to be possible.
I understand that quoth allows you to do some of the stuff in there, I'll check out some more maps that use it.
Really a masterpiece of a map.
Only thing I don't like is that some of the tunnels inside the base feel a bit like a maze. Map's fucking hard btw (but I guess that's cause I suck).
Dfsp_spirit
#94 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/11/20 20:17:42
Glad you liked the map :)
#95 posted by MadFox [84.26.170.230] on 2009/12/06 05:56:45
Map's fucking hard
as betatester I must admit...
I'll never forget that xmass.
Very Cool Atmosphere
#96 posted by sock [88.110.143.38] on 2010/04/03 23:51:59
Wow, I am really impressed with the atmosphere of this map and the scale of the architecture is cool considering it is Q1. I will come back to this with a more indepth review once I play through the other skill levels.

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