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Posted by distrans [149.144.189.66] on 2008/05/20 05:57:18

This one is a small D3 textured SF level, requiring Quoth and the Quoth2 upgrade. It started as a testbed for lighting and ended up being a place to experiment with Quoth(2) functionality.
Screens:
http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php...
http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?...
Thanks to Kell, necros and Preach.
Also to my my long suffering testers scragbait, JPL, negke and sielwolf. All had strong opinions about the level, a couple of which matched ;P
Download:
http://shub-hub.com/files/maps_sin...
Even if there are no secrets, exploration is always rewarded.
Be warned - 'HARD' is a thoroughly Quoth2 experience.

What Is An SF Level?
#1 posted by metlslime [98.210.181.179] on 2008/05/20 08:41:34
Sci-fi?
#2 posted by gone [78.37.163.167] on 2008/05/20 09:00:11
Distrans
#3 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2008/05/20 09:00:17
Download link is broken !! :(
And Ffs
#4 posted by gone [78.37.163.167] on 2008/05/20 09:00:42
url is 404
#5 posted by gone [78.37.163.167] on 2008/05/20 09:01:45
http://shub-hub.com/files/maps_sin...
Ooohhhrrawr
#6 posted by Spirit [213.39.203.231] on 2008/05/20 09:03:22
The link works now, it ended up in the wrong folder earlier. :)
#7 posted by gone [78.37.163.167] on 2008/05/20 09:04:37
no wait its password protected beta
I hate this map!
Speeds
#8 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2008/05/20 09:07:56
Don't be mean... the password is well known.... Errr... thought...
Bloody Hell
#9 posted by Spirit [213.39.203.231] on 2008/05/20 09:19:49
small, testbed, experiment MY ASS. What an amazing map. Very hard though. I loved all the use of sounds!
Now someone really has to make a pack of the original textures.
Just Saw Those Shots
#10 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.19.111] on 2008/05/20 10:20:12
and came in my pants! More later!!!
Die Die Die Die Die Die Die Die Die
#11 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.19.111] on 2008/05/20 11:04:36
Die die die die die die die. I'll have another go when I'm feeling a little more masochistic. And patient.
Very pretty map - nice coloured lighting (from the parts I've seen) excellent use of Doom 3 textures and sound. Heh! Pretty hard. Quake gameplay turned into poo by constant death!
Well I dont like saving with less than 30% health so I'm probably never gonna complete this one! Im too subborn to play any less than skill 2 also.
4 elimnators with 25 nails, a few shells and 40% health, no armour?!?!?!
Fuck off
I suppose of you're trying to make a Doom3 style experience then constant quicksaving and 100 deaths is allowed (is it?!?!)
Well, anyway, this map looks very very sexy, even if the Doom3 textures don't convert that well! Noticed a Half-Life texture also! Whe I saw those screenshots I nearly came in my pants... When I played it I got bored after dieing 10 times. Only got up to the room with shells (single barrelled shotgun, a nailgun with 25 nails, fuck all health and no armour) and the 4 Eliminators. Died once just to get into that room, nasty surprise from behind my back (2 Emilminators, nowhere to retreat) then twice when I got into the room (2 More Emilminators, im unloading my nailgun into one of them when he shoots me dead)
Fantastic appearance, poory balanced gameplay.
I'll try again later though!!
Fave Fun
#12 posted by gone [78.37.163.167] on 2008/05/20 11:15:00
http://www.speeds.quaddicted.com/d...
angry review later
Lollin Here
#13 posted by negke [82.83.57.199] on 2008/05/20 11:21:37
Aww, too hard? Try skill 1 then. Also, exploration is always rewarded, especially at the beginning. ;)
Distrans
#14 posted by nitin [124.168.8.169] on 2008/05/20 12:14:24
name comes from that new water brand in oz?
Oops...
#15 posted by distrans [59.167.236.18] on 2008/05/20 12:48:09
...timing problem, apparently the news item was cleared here before the upload was cleared at shub...apologies.
Metl: Sci-Fi, it seemed to suit better than 'base'.
I spent a long time implementing skill levels in this thing, don't waste your time by ignoring them. This level will force people to rethink the way they play the game, some will reject the level on this ground others will rejoice in it. I expect significant polarisation.
Distrans
#16 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2008/05/20 13:06:34
As I already mentioned during beta testing: I love this level. You really captured the Doom3 ambiance, and definitively, the player have to think twice before progressing: it is highly strategic, and running through the level is not really a good idea...
BTW: moderator should add this small warning in the news description (distrans, do you remember that ?): "Warning: this map is very hard, whatever skill you choose. So weak player should not play this map and go back in their mom's petticoats, otherwize they will cry a lot... :P"
So, what can I say more ? Yes it is hard. Yes it is (my converted) Doom3 texture set (Thanks for that: I was not expecting such good level with my humble "production"). Yes the easy/normal/hard skill are set in a complete different way compared to what has been done before. Yes the map is challenging. Yes the map is impressively good regarding architecture, texturing and lightning.. And what ? Aren't you bored to play endlessly the same map styles (gameplay, monsters, etc..). Don't you want changes ?
We have to cross a threshold now guys, and move forward to something different (and fuck the purists :P ) !!
PS: distrans, you rock !! Thank you so much to let me beta test this awesome map :D
PS2: I want to see more map like this !!
#17 posted by gb [89.27.231.75] on 2008/05/20 13:10:59
veeery interesting demo speeds.
congrats on an interesting map distrans.
I suck and have slow hardware, which kills you quickly in this type of map. I also thought the map was very crampy, at least in parts. I tried skill 0, but the enforcer barrage was just not my cup of tea right now.
I would have liked a chance to skip the intro, I saw it very often :-/ (the intro by itself was cool though.)
I'm also thoroughly sick of base maps and monsters with shotguns, guided missiles and weird strafing patterns by now (unless there is enough room.) It wears off. IMO Quoth monsters are best used as spice only. The flashlight battery bar is also pretty intrusive (all quoth problems, not map problems.)
I liked the little story or shall we say, atmosphere elements.
all in all, not my cup of tea.
JPL
#18 posted by gb [89.27.231.75] on 2008/05/20 13:14:14
Yes, change, good. But crampedness and raising the difficulty level IMO can't be it.
OK - Played A Bit More...
#19 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.19.111] on 2008/05/20 13:28:18
First of all I am starting to like this map a lot. It's very frustrating to begin with because you die. OK, we're over that a bit now. Some of the challenges seem down-right unfair. At first.
However, after a few more plays I am learning where all of the stashes are, and knowing what is going to happen before it happens is fun, because you know you are going to have a challenge - combat in that sense is very good! i.e shambler battle - grab the shells and kill the shamber. Man to, er, shambler! Good fight!
This is the sort of map which makes you learn to play better!
The thing is I suppose that had the gameplay been in a less well thought out and pretty map, the player wouldn't give it two goes. However I have been compelled to keep going back for more because the map is soooo immersive - quite a thrill really! Gameplay IS balanced - there is infact loads of health, armour, ammo etc IF YOU LOOK FOR IT!
And yes it is in places cramped, but thats half of the thrill I suppose - chlaustrophobia!
I too take my hat off to you Distrans - very nice original Quake map! Inspirational stuff really - loads of nice details everywhere! Varied gamplay. Tough. Magnetic. Brilliant! :-)
Just took a while to get my head round it I suppose...
#20 posted by gb [89.27.231.75] on 2008/05/20 13:46:40
as we were talking accessibility elsewhere, this map (like some others) would turn casual gamer types off of Quake forever. So we should probably trade this under the counter ;-)
Doom3 In Classic Quake
#21 posted by gone [78.37.31.230] on 2008/05/20 14:28:24
So you tried to do doom3 in quake ok, I understand it. And I wish I could say you did a good job but...
The stolen textures look really shitty shrunk x4 and badly converted to q1 pal - which simply doesnt have enough grey tones. Its both a disrespect to the quality art of doom3 and its creators. And it brings down your hard work on building the environment. Which is a very close recreation of doom3 levels - I even recognized many pieces.
The cramped design in d3 was because the player speed is 2x slower.
why bring it to q1 where it doesnt work? Same with light - d3 is dark cause of the technology and boo-horror setting. This map is only playable with gamma .6 - making it all look washed out grey, but hey at least I see whats there. (I played with normal gamma at first but got pummeled at the very start and retried with increased gamma - thats what u see in the demo)
Gameplay is pretty much a surprise rape most of the time. Being teleport-ambushed, surrounded and outgunned (with the lack of even an SSG!) plus often being cramped or lacking any cover. The shambler trap is just nonsense - and its present even on ez skill.
I was fighting off 2 flying droids with a shotgun and 1% health. Thats fucking hardcore! And I played on skill 1 pretty cautiously -_- Its less fun than doom3, ponder that(and d3 was much easier and more fair even on hard skill btw.)
Your gameplay approaches the state of an unpredictable trap where you suddenly find yourself hurt and only have half-second to step away or die. And its up to luck whether this step leads you into another trap. Thats how it felt to me on.
I reckon it feels better if you save-load all the time thus knowing where the nasty ambushes are, still some setups are jokes (in the meaning of 'lets screw the player haha!')
All in all its like some of the bad things from d3 exported to q1.
But there are also good ones - sounds and the neat mech bridges and the recreation of the looks (minus bad textures).
Maybe you should map for doom3 or q4 if you like this style so much
oh and dont feel bad - your map must be art if it provekes emotions, even if bad ones :)
Well...
#22 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/20 14:55:58
Be warned - 'HARD' is a thoroughly Quoth2 experience.
That is as damning a criticism as one could hope for, one scarcely needs to add more.
Except, the problem rarely lies with difficulty, but with poorly implemented combats (e.g. little room to move / no room to dodge / situations that aren't survivable first go / situations that force a lot of health off the player with no possibility of avoiding it / etc etc). It's quite obvious in most maps the difference between "Very hard combats that are playable using skill / reactions" and "Skill-irrelevant health-sinks / luck-dependent-situations".
The design and atmosphere were very good and faithful to Doom3.
#23 posted by negke [82.83.13.69] on 2008/05/20 15:27:02
I didn't the map is too dark btw. It's just fine for me - the fog brightens the distance a little. At least in Fitzquake.
Ugh
#24 posted by megaman [92.72.12.123] on 2008/05/20 15:30:54
someone throw this back into the inner depths of mount doom and hope it never comes back.
everything spds said + i was fighting the two flying things on the bridge with an axe until i died (they almost never come down into axe range).
there's no tactics at all in the fights, because they're all ambush rapes. bla.
make a proper map.
Also
#25 posted by megaman [92.72.12.123] on 2008/05/20 15:32:13
how the CZG did you make quake this slow. <30fps for me most of the time, where standard quake runs with 150+.
Distrans
#26 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2008/05/20 19:03:57
Your talent will only be recognize after your death, like for all geniuses....
As I already said: fuck purists !!
BTW: The map is passing well on FitzQuake 0.80, with more than 30 fps, if you have a proper PC setting, and nothing else running ;)
Heh..
#27 posted by rj [86.1.160.132] on 2008/05/20 21:29:29
thanks for the forwarning guys. skill 0 here i come!
Forewarning*
#28 posted by rj [86.1.160.132] on 2008/05/20 21:29:55
Finisheded
#29 posted by rj [86.1.160.132] on 2008/05/20 22:04:02
11:42, 61/72
fun map, wasn't a massive challenge on skill 0 (heh, no shit) but there were enough moderately tough moments to keep me entertained.
call me old fashioned but i think hard should mean hard (yes, that does mean unbalanced & unfair) so that beating it presents a proper achievement. for those wanting balanced yet challenging gameplay, skill 1 is there for a reason! (although by the sounds of it skill 1 was pretty hard in this map too :p )
i didn't really like the appearance of this map. the rooms were nicely crafted with a good eye for detail but i really don't like those textures ported to quake; they look kinda plastic and not gritty enough. also i'm completely at a loss how people are saying it was too dark; i thought it was too bright if anything! must be my gamma settings.. but other maps look fine enough.. *shrugs*
the sounds were excellent. i noticed spectrasonics atmosphere in there too ;)
Also..
#30 posted by rj [86.1.160.132] on 2008/05/20 22:07:14
..i noticed no subnormal framerates, and i'd hardly call my pc cutting edge (opteron 2.1, 768 ram, geforce 6600). this was using aglquake though
#31 posted by Jaromir83 [87.249.134.180] on 2008/05/20 22:15:01
excellent detail level, very atmospherical (especially with the fog), perfect brush work. too bad I was experiencing some heavy slowdowns during gameplay (probly when D3 ambient was playing?). thanks for allowing not to pickup the flashlight. very nice and enjoyable map.
Very Nice Map
#32 posted by Ankh [88.199.103.6] on 2008/05/20 22:54:18
For me it was a great map. The architecture and details were excellent. It wasn't too dark for me and the textures are acceptable in my opinion. Sounds and light effects were very nice and the whole map had a great atmosphere. I have decided to play on skill 0 after reading the comments and it was a good choice. The gameplay felt ballanced and fair on this skill. I liked most of the combats. Maybe some day I will try it on tougher skil settings. I have recorded a demo - the start is pretty boring because I couldn't find the way out of the GA area:
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
Whoa
#33 posted by bambuz [91.152.87.250] on 2008/05/20 23:24:15
This was extremely nice!
Good taste and attention to detail and everything.
Some combats were a little annoying. If quoth2 only had made some monsters (vorelings!) have less health.
Top Class distrans!
I didn't know how to use the flashlight, it was on until it was off...
WANT
#34 posted by Zwiffle [66.170.5.18] on 2008/05/20 23:35:08
Will get later.
Flashlight
#35 posted by Preach [131.111.213.35] on 2008/05/21 00:54:18
The command to toggle the flashlight is "flashlight". Bind it to a key like normal.
A full list of quoth2 commands can be found in the tutorial(although flashlight is really the only one you need)
http://kell.quaddicted.com/quoth/q...
And Vorelings
#36 posted by Preach [131.111.213.35] on 2008/05/21 00:58:06
Personally, I would have made vorelings with less health - somewhere around a grunt, so two shells would be needed. But it would be unwise to make sweeping changes to stuff from the original version. So vorelings are fixed as they are, being mid level enemies that just look small.
Question
#37 posted by nitin [124.168.8.169] on 2008/05/21 01:12:35
not possible to release tgas of textures?
Looks Great
#38 posted by than [220.47.251.83] on 2008/05/21 02:25:45
but it's fucking hard...
I thought the Shambler ambush was cool, but actually I was just god moding through it by that point.
I'll probably try playing it properly when my patience is feeling up to the job :)
Answer
#39 posted by gone [78.37.31.230] on 2008/05/21 02:50:30
stop stealing textures from other games!
Information
#40 posted by inertia [24.164.67.55] on 2008/05/21 06:50:50
is free :(
Great Map, Congrats!!!
#41 posted by spy [89.218.5.202] on 2008/05/21 08:51:24
a bit bright though, and combat was very tough,
couldn't complete it on skill 3 yet :(
>I didn't know how to use the flashlight, it was on until it was off...
the same deal
Polarisation Indeed...
#42 posted by distrans [59.167.236.18] on 2008/05/21 08:58:01
...thank you one and all, and thanks for sticking at it Ricky...given your understanding of Qouth(2) I thought you'd eventually come round.
A word about skill levels - with the introduction of Quoth2 and the attraction of hardcore DM players back into the single player fold, the Quake level designer now has more choice and possibly even more responsibility with respect to setting skill levels. Gone are the days when one could even say the range now starts at 'normal' and bumps everthing up linear fashion from there. 'Hard' under this regimen makes the likes of sielwolf, UWF and bambuz nod off while playing.
In setting the skills for this level I made a conscious choice to set 'skill 0' at 'original Id easy with the occassional extra challenge'. Precisely because I didn't want to put off peeps wandering into the game for the first time in years to come. 'Skill 1' is 'current hard with a sting' so that good players can enjoy a challenge. 'Skill 2' caters to the growing number of Uber players who appreciate the extra challenge of Quoth2.
A word on gameplay - the Quoth bestiary is here to stay, given this I've done a bit of work exploring the play patterns of each...you know, the sort of thing we all did when Quake came out. There are some really useful habits in this bestiary, for instance if one has a decent armour on one can stand directly in front of an enforcer_pyro and suck up flame as you pump him full of shot, all the while losing little or no health...then voila he gives you back the little health you may have lost anyway. Polyps are unnerving...but stupid, unless you move a fair distance they always port back to the same spot and they give you a big hint before they use their push attack. Once again, standing your ground and auto pumping shells into the thing OR the space where it was while being mindful to wide sidestep when the push attack winds up (all the while holding down the trigger) works a treat. You can actually fix the thing in place if you can keep a steady stream of tin hitting it.
Learn to love the new kids on the block (as we did the original bestiary), or don't bother with Quoth driven levels.
If you insist on trying to run and gun this level then the skill level required to survive it ramps up exponentially and the gameplay has the effect of becoming suprise rape. If you keep your cool, look around, explore, treat the level with respect (i.e. don't get lazy), and use your commonsense then none of the situations are unfair or unsurvivable first time round on skill 1.
And To Speeds Specifically...
#43 posted by distrans [59.167.236.18] on 2008/05/21 09:34:56
...because I respect him so much.
I did not try to do DooM3 in Quake. Let it go friend!
The cramped areas in this level contain no enemy, unless you are referring to the ledge under the initial teleporter in which case "What kind of idiot tries to take down a polyp while walking a thin edge above slime." Machismo is deadly in this instance, learn to run away and take the fight to an area that profits you.
Your demo exposes why you believe the gameplay consists of ambush rape set ups...you expect everything to just fall to your hand and don't bother to even casually glance around your environment, it's just run run run to the next encounter. As to the shambler trap...during it you exhibit some of the laziest quake play I ever seen, in fact your game has become very lazy in general (I still have a blindingly good demo of you completing pdbq_sp1 from 2001). You don't seem to take the task seriously until you drop well into the red (in which case your brilliant skills kick in again). You make odd choices, like equipping yourself with a low powered weapon (rather than the charged LG) when you are about to open a door behind which you can obviously hear an Edie. Why anyone would be surprised by the appearance of two 'bobs' while standing on a "security bridge" with a MH at the end of it is baffling. Unpredictable traps?
There are no gameplay jokes here, your prejudices and deficiencies do not allow you to put words in my mouth.
I've contemplated mapping for Q4, and may do so when/if time ever permits.
Thanks for the comments, I obviously think they are misguided but they are yours and thus I respect them. I'm glad to have encouraged such an empassioned response from one of the games best.
Added Title To Post...
#44 posted by metlslime [98.210.181.179] on 2008/05/21 09:51:02
since, it's easier to find news threads in the archives when the map name is there.
Now, to actually install and play it....
Than
#45 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/21 11:12:19
I thought the Shambler ambush was cool, but actually I was just god moding through it by that point.
Best gameplay feedback EVAR ^_~
Distrans
#46 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/21 11:15:30
then none of the situations are unfair or unsurvivable first time round on skill 1.
Did you design Skill 2 so that some situations would be unfair or unsurvivable first time around??
That is not necessarily a problem, but it is a totally different style of gameplay (maybe that's what you were going for) and as such it should be mentioned as such. E.g. "Here is a map I have designed specifically so on harder skills players will not be able to complete first go and will have to learn the tactics required" (as I say, itself not a bad idea for something different).
Very hard is not equivalent to unfair / unsurvivable first time
Played On Skill 1...
#47 posted by metlslime [98.210.181.179] on 2008/05/21 11:50:02
and died a lot, generally due to lack of health (i suppose that's obvious) but i don't think the enemy/weapon/ammo balance was off. Just the shortage of health. Ambushes didn't seem unfair to me, as i died the same amount in ambushes as i died from random fire from bad guys in non-ambushes.
There were definitely 2-3 cramped combat situations. I disagree that you could always lead enemies to nice open combat areas.
Map was quite bright due to the fog. I tried some darker, thicker fog, and thought that actually looked moodier and had less banding problems. (i think it was density .05, color .1 .1 .13 or something like that)
Nice geometry, good pacing, and i was happy to play a map that has under 100 monsters in it. Those are less common nowadays.
As for the type of gameplay, i don't think it was "doom3" gameplay... felt like standard quake to me, and played like a lot of other custom quake levels. I definitely died more on this one, but the level was small enough that i didn't mind replaying sections a couple times. Aside from using the ripped-off doom3 textures, this really felt like a middle-to-old-school custom quake level.
I Played On Skill 1
#48 posted by bambuz [193.167.3.3] on 2008/05/21 15:51:19
and there were some ambushes that felt a bit unfair and resulted in load cycles, but on the other hand, if you don't spawn enemies behind the player, he could always just retreat and spam. It's a quake gameplay problem because the monsters are so stupid it's so easy to just shoot-duck-shoot if you have a secured rear sector.
Vastly simplified, you can either close the door behind the player (arena combat), spawn enemies behind the player (surrounded), make him have to use a weapon that only works at close range (ammo choice). All have their "meh" side.
I didn't mind the crampedness at all. I never got stuck on anything. It was very well done. I noticed a clip in a few obscure places but nothing annoying.
When the new Fitz comes I can play with 85 Hz and dinput and then aiming works better again.
***SPOILER***
I killed the polyp from the vent, he was stupidly floating there in front and slightly above, not hitting me very well at all, I've noticed some flying enemies are often like that...
I still think the voreling should die of one SSG hit. It's tinier than a rabbit ffs.
Sounds Intriguing..
#49 posted by dEus [92.78.14.45] on 2008/05/21 17:53:29
.. from the discussion in this thread alone. i don't play a lot of singleplayer quake but this should be worth the download. will report back later :)
Nice Map, But ...
#50 posted by Barnak [70.49.123.177] on 2008/05/21 19:20:50
This map is very well done.
I played it with GLQuake. How do you activate the exit elevator ? I had all the keys, but I was unable to activate the final elevator.
You Just Step On It
#51 posted by bambuz [193.167.6.88] on 2008/05/21 21:26:25
did you play with quoth? (quoth2 to be precise.)
kell.quaddicted.com
My Thoughts
#52 posted by Orl [68.38.78.49] on 2008/05/21 21:46:00
First let me say that the map was in no way overly dark, nor did I experience any slowdowns during gameplay. Constant 85 fps.
This is a really good looking map. When I first saw the screenshots, I thought it was a Doom 3 map, until I looked closer, and noticed it was for Quake.
Despite what everyone else thinks, I enjoy seeing the doom 3 textures in Quake. They look really good, and they're usage in this map was no exception.
Hard skill was harder than I expected. I died about a dozen times. But that's what hard skill is supposed to be, right?
The detail was also stunning. Particularly the area where you extend the bridges to get across. I enjoyed that one.
Can't really complain to much. It was an all around excellent map with plenty of surprises. Just wish it could have been longer though.
Very nice work Distrans.
#53 posted by Jaromir83 [87.249.134.180] on 2008/05/21 22:41:51
I really would not be against playing whole episode of such a D3-like ownages.
PS: is there any way to avoid the slowdowns while using Fitzquake for this map(to change number of audiochannels in config or something)?
EXIT Elevator
#54 posted by Barnak [76.65.182.181] on 2008/05/21 23:26:18
How damn should I activte the EXIT elevator ? Where do I put the golden key ?
RE: Slowdowns
#55 posted by Preach [131.111.213.35] on 2008/05/21 23:34:23
Add "-heapsize 48000" to your command line, that should get rid of the slowdowns. At the moment, the amount of memory needed to load the bsp/quoth stuff means all the model keep getting fetched from disk. This seems to be happening frequently enough that it should be added to the quoth page/readme.
Tested This On Skill 2
#56 posted by Scragbait [70.51.95.168] on 2008/05/21 23:42:29
This is a meticuluosly built and tuned map which is both sonically and visually rich.
If you rush, you'll hate it on skill 2. You have to learn the map and choose routes and tactics carefully. Even then, expect a sound beating. However, you'll feel a sense of accomplishment when you see the Turkey Puncher.
Supplies are well balanced - you just can't be too sloppy with either health or ammo. I was able to finish with enough to spare. Again, think about route planning as it applies to risk and reward.
I like the look of the converted textures and the cramped feel. A tech base should be full of shadows and you should be scared when enemies close in.
Choose a skill setting based on fun and not on assumption. If you're not sure, don't be too proud to start at 0. It's a good enough map to revisit on the search for your correct skill setting.
Started On Skill 1...
#57 posted by Lardarse [62.31.162.204] on 2008/05/22 00:05:55
But after dying a few times at the start, I dropped down a gear. Managed to complete it eventually, despite some tight moments (the final battle stripped me of armor and dropped me into the red). It's a map that satisfies, despite its size. Apart from one ambush early on (about 10 feet passed the silver key door), which I think is a little on the strong side, especially at skill 1 (where hitscan weapons will produce a rather short and undesireable ending.
The "higher tier" weapons (GL and shaft) are used well, as very little ammo is provided for them, meaning that you have to be careful not to overkill monsters that drop. They also need to be used well (like taking out or weakening multiple monsters with a grenade) if you don't want to be forced to use your standard weapons when you are in intense combat. Speaking of weapons, I found myself using the nailgun much more than I usually do in this level. I usually use shotguns about 80% of the time, but there we
This map doesn't suffer from the flaw that many maps have suffered from, where they start hard and gets easier. This map starts hard and stays hard. It's rather refreshing, in a way, and I definitely feel that some mappers could learn from this map...
#58 posted by megaman [92.73.95.113] on 2008/05/22 03:55:49
the monsters are so stupid it's so easy to just shoot-duck-shoot if you have a secured rear sector
And why would that be a problem? The player can DECIDE how to approach the combat, it's either easier or more fun - but the player can adjust the difficulty to his skill level. Can you as a level designer not stand to see the player have fun on his own? I thought we all agreed that choice is a good thing.
(that's mostly what gets me so angry about the d3-like gameplay, btw. it's so hard (ie. you die so fast if you don't do the right thing) you don't really have a chance to react to the ambushes -> no decision on my own (during fluid gameplay) -> angryness.)
Smabler...
#59 posted by distrans [149.144.189.66] on 2008/05/22 04:43:03
...granted, I suppose a little blurb in the Difficulty Settings: section of the .txt (rather than the standard Yes/No) will become SOP in time to come. Not including one this time round is an oversite on my part.
Barnak...
#60 posted by distrans [149.144.189.66] on 2008/05/22 04:46:30
... the Gold Key operates the EXIT door, after the lift to the surface lowers you should be able to trigger it upward by merely stepping on to it.
For Distrans :
#61 posted by gone [78.37.13.164] on 2008/05/22 12:31:27
yeah right, blame the player for not approaching your map right, when he sees it for the first time...
Im not gonna say "What kind of idiot puts a polyp over a thin edge above slime." cause we arent making this personal. You simply can witness how much idea players have where to run away and take the fight to an area that profits them from the Ankh`s demo (the appropriate over-slime part). I might be playing pretty straight-forward but thats how it is - and there is reason I play on skill 1 by default. And even if I tend to press forward too much, I am also retreating - but only to find out that the areas I have covered and cleared are re-filled with some deadly enemies (which a first-time player couldnt expect ofcourse).
If you believe that locking a "skill 0" player armed with a nailgun in a small area against a shambler with no cover, or putting a shotty-armed quaker between 2 rl and lg grunts at the very start is a good setup - then we have very different ideas of whats fair. Quoth grunts were made to substitute the higher-ranked monsters in the base-themed levels, and throwing a bunch of them vs weak wepons is not balanced by the very design.
Never mind the bridge comment - mind the health meter - that part wasnt hard or surprising. Having watched my demo I see it was a pure luck I didnt die those 2 times where I was down to 1%... duh.
And another stab at doom3-ishness: not marking the secrets is uncool for atleast 2 reasons: no info and lack of accomplishing 'finding 100%'
Hey, but here is real comeback:
Now I dare you to beat your own map on NIGHTMARE (since you know it inside-out and have a better understanding of quoth enemies) Fair enough?
Oh My,
#62 posted by distrans [59.167.236.18] on 2008/05/22 13:51:08
I really don't want to get into a slanging match with someone I have such respect for, my response was in no way meant to be an attack...but here goes anyway:
yeah, right blame the level designer for not designing another level where you just meander along doing the same thing you've been doing for the last 10 years...
that damn pesky teleporter, I wish I could find the off switch, and damn I wish I'd paid more attention at the briefing on these new enemy...
...and a surfeit of health leading up to the situation, including a Mega Health just before the encounter
unmarked secrets? huh? there are no secrets in this map
my default level is also normal, that's why I engage testers of an ability far beyond mine, no not fair enough...irrational.
We Disagree...
#63 posted by distrans [59.167.236.18] on 2008/05/22 13:54:02
...and now it should be clear along which lines so let's drop it or take it private...
#64 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/22 15:29:53
http://www.bfeedme.com/wp-content/...
But Megaman
#65 posted by bambuz [130.233.228.9] on 2008/05/22 15:55:31
when shoot-duck-shoot wanking is the optimal play strategy, the game gets boring.
Reply To Distrans...
#66 posted by Barnak [76.65.183.197] on 2008/05/22 16:18:44
>... the Gold Key operates the EXIT door, after the lift to the surface
>lowers you should be able to trigger it upward by merely stepping
>on to it.
Well, it doesn't work ! I can open the EXIT door with the gold key, but then the elevator doesn't go down. It is staying upstairs with 5 bubblegum monsters on it. What gives ?
Barnak
#67 posted by Spirit [213.39.158.230] on 2008/05/22 17:17:13
Are you using Quoth? And not an engine that is known for random funny buggyness (Darkplaces)?
Noooo
#68 posted by gone [78.37.13.164] on 2008/05/22 17:42:43
I demand nightmare demo!
Bambuz
#69 posted by megaman [92.72.2.235] on 2008/05/22 17:53:26
in sp: not if the game doesn't demand it.
in mp: yes.
In Sp
#70 posted by bambuz [193.167.6.205] on 2008/05/22 18:24:55
but then the game becomes a tedious job. There is one way to do it with minimum danger (wank the corner) and you up the level of difficulty until even that optimal way is sufficiently hard.
Also, the gameplay involves no decisions since you know the optimal strategy and can always employ it.
If wank the corner is not demanded, then other choices are done purely out of *laziness*, to get through the level faster, even when they are harder to survive. That means the level is too easy in a sense.
If You Teleport Monsters Behind The Player
#71 posted by bambuz [193.167.6.205] on 2008/05/22 18:28:46
or do something else that I proposed (just for the sake of argument), then the player has to make some decisions, often fast ones, and can not retreat to some beforehand picked always the same optimal strategy.
And that's why people play games, because they can effect the outcome of the game by their decisions.
If you discover an optimal strategy that works and is immediately obvious every time, then it's just repetition and refining that one thing, not a game anymore.
Nightmare:
#72 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/22 18:36:08
Got to 69/89 on my first Nightmare attempt. Not that difficult after the start. Failed by falling down a hole into the lower level in the GK room and getting trapped by Plasma Cunts.
Don't think it's much harder on Nightmare to be honest.
I managed to lure the Shambler out of the room - but then after killing him the door closed with me outside it.
Nightmare #2
#73 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/22 19:11:13
Done, second go. 22:45. Speeds I sent you a demo to speeds[at]bk.ru , feel free to post it up.
All of it went fine EXCEPT the Shambler conflict (which I didn't avoid this time) which is pretty unplayable on Nightmare. I went in with 120+ health and enough GA after having done well with the crappy drones, and the Shambler just stood there and fired (with nowhere for me to hide). Took 120-150 health off and left me with about 10 armour and 2 health.
#74 posted by Trinca [89.180.203.26] on 2008/05/22 19:12:04
ok ok finally play it! didn’t record first demo because was to short...
well brushwork is fucking great 10 of 10!!!
game play boring and crappy hate it 1 of 10!!!
maybe Quoth2 made it like this, but you also have abused of spawns... :( i think this map is not pure Quake because game play in boring and slow! honestly i hated sorry but at least brushwork is fabulous!!!
or maybe i´m a shit player and suck a lot ;)
Who knows?
Anyway nice work ;)
I Guess Trinca Doesnt Know The Meaning Of The Word 'boring'
#75 posted by gone [78.37.13.164] on 2008/05/22 20:07:18
Speeds/shambler
#76 posted by than [220.47.251.83] on 2008/05/23 01:55:42
upload the demo!*
*please
The Initial Release...
#77 posted by THERAILMCCOY [80.42.28.156] on 2008/05/23 09:00:59
I agree with bambuz. Quake isn't a game about tactics or hiding and sniping from a distance, it's about being in the thick of close range combat, bobbing, weaving and shooting in fast-paced melees and negotiating encounters in a primarily reactive manner, so therefore ambush and arena oriented level design works best. Given the limitations of the game's AI and the design of the monsters with their typically slow projectiles and melee attacks, allowing the player to retreat all the time just causes the gameplay to devolve into a borderline passive state, as the player hangs back from a safe distance and picks off enemies with ease.
In any game, whenever you give the player additional options for dealing with a scenario, you also create the potential for them to make it boring for themselves. While the open-ended approach works well if you have a design like Crysis or Bioshock or Deus Ex, where the player has a number of nuanced and highly divergent means of tackling problems, it is less effective in more minimalist games where the player has a limited toolset at his disposal. That's why in linear, tightly focused action games like the Half-life and Call of Duty series, the developers greatly restrict the player's options in the vast majority of situations. I remember Gabe Newell saying something along the lines of "we don't want to just throw players into a level and say 'go have a game experience'", referring to their desire to ensure a tightly choreographed gameplay flow that hopefully sends the player along an exciting rollercoaster trajectory that has been carefully orchestrated through planning and testing, as opposed to just throwing a series of gameplay elements together and hoping that the player takes decisions that enable them to have fun.
Of course, that word 'playtesting' is crucial if you're taking a more deterministic approach to game design, since if you're implicitly creating a system that is virtually unalterable by the player, you must ensure you have methods in place for catering to different player abilities.
In the absence of a professional developer's resources for testing, the most obvious method is skill levels and I think megaman's frustration stems partly from Quake's limited range of these. It's a pretty difficult task to cater in a precise manner to the entire talent range of players via just 3 skill levels (Nightmare doesn't really count since its fairly crude method of upping difficulty produces unpredictable, non-mapper controlled results that don't smoothly increment in the manner easy, normal and hard can. For example, a battle against 3 ogres will become dramatically more difficult on NM due to their increased fire rate enabling them to fill the area with grenades, whereas a battle against a melee oriented monster like a fiend won't change much from hard difficulty).
This map exacerbated this problem due to the fact that even easy contains scenarios that are equivalent to what one might expect on hard in other maps and arguably even beyond that, such as the shambler ambush with no cover requiring players to use the old shambler shuffle technique, a method likely to be known to only fairly hardcore players. In a map like this, I do think it's preferable if news posts and the readme have additional explanation about what the various skill settings entail, as distrans has suggested.
The best solution, of course, would be additional skill settings to begin with. I really think every game should have at least five, with two, three and four being similar to easy, medium and hard in Quake, then the bookend options would be designed to cater to fringe players, with one making it almost impossible to die and basically being a means to ensure that anybody can at least see the whole game, regardless of ability, and five being a means of ensuring that the most elite gamers have a challenge suitable for their talent. Maybe this is something the Quoth developers would consider in future. It would mean extra effort for mappers, but more gameplay for players and more ability to tailor the experience to one's liking, as megaman seems to desire, only without having to resort to approaches in-game that distort Quake's strengths.
As far as the map itself goes, it's inevitable it will divide opinion given the factors mentioned above in this post and fact that it experiments in other areas too, such as the aesthetic style. Overall, I thought it was excellent. The combat was well-choreographed, playing to what I consider to be Quake's best features, with difficulty always being high yet fair. The map was certainly cramped, even more so than the original Id maps and I found this refreshing given the ever-increasing size of Quake levels, a pattern that fails to acknowledge that combat in Quake, as in most games, gets increasingly one-dimensional the larger the spaces.
The Expansion Pack
#78 posted by THERAILMCCOY [80.42.28.156] on 2008/05/23 09:02:01
The main difficulty in making smaller architecture is the increased attention to clipping required, and this map slipped up on that to some extent. The general rule should be that if a piece of geometry protruding from a wall isn't large enough to seek cover behind, it should probably be clipped off, or at least have a 45 degree clip brush placed alongside so the player slides off it. Generally this map followed this rule, but there were a few places that did not adhere to it, and thus occasionally one ends up adhering to the wall instead, crucially in some parts of the final arena.
Clipping aside, however, that particular section of the map was excellent, specifically the varying heights and different routes through it, making it more interesting than the standard big-box-with-a-few-pillars arenas typically used for climactic encounters and also the way in which you get to walk through it and familiarise yourself with it in peace on the way to the gold key, then fight your way out once it is acquired. Really intelligent design (not the religious kind) that actually does allow some tactical variation on the part of the player, while keeping things aggressive enough to ensure the pace doesn't drop.
With regard to visuals, the results are a bit more mixed. I agree with those who believe that the Quake palette doesn't support the colours found in the Doom 3 textures particularly well, with the white and blue textures often looking excessively garish and smeared by the conversion from their original format. On the plus side, geometry was fantastic and impressively faithful to D3 and the lighting, along with that found in RickyT23's recent maps, should settle in the affirmative the argument about the worth of colour in Quake's lighting.
Than:
#79 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/23 10:05:09
Don't have anywhere to upload it to. Spds has it, can email to you if you want. It's not hugely interesting: 22 minutes of me twatting around ;)
Shamby/spede
#80 posted by bambuz [193.167.6.23] on 2008/05/23 12:49:04
upload to shub-hub, it's made precisely for this kind of stuff.
Somebody can e-mail you the password. (Don't mention it here as people will google it.)
McCoy
#81 posted by bambuz [193.167.6.23] on 2008/05/23 12:49:39
Nice posts
Shub-hub Password May Be Posted Anywhere
#82 posted by Spirit [80.171.9.144] on 2008/05/23 13:00:55
I just thought it might be a nice idea not to have it right on the site (don't ask me why, heh).
It's ilovetheshubhub
#83 posted by megaman [92.72.2.235] on 2008/05/23 13:09:05
Quake isn't a game about tactics Orly?
allowing the player to retreat all the time just causes the gameplay to devolve into a borderline passive state, as the player hangs back from a safe distance and picks off enemies with ease.
My point is: the educated player, who actually wants to have fun playing the damn thing instead of 'to finish it' (and hello, we're playing a game 12 years old, we're not the guys who play a game/map 'to finish it'), will use the freedom to his advantage, to have the most fun with the map - appropriate to his favorite playing style.
Example: half-life soldiers. I played some of those scenes about 20 times, just to try different tactics, to see how the ai behaves, etc.
Example: the whole game of descent 1/2. you're totally free to choose your style: you can very carefully snipe around corners, or crash into every room and try to avoid the projectiles. heck, on the lower skills you can even just crash into the room or wait for enemies. I still have the most fun ever playing it - because i have to approach every fight a little different, because i can try new strategies everytime, or just enjoy the one that's the most fun to me.
And Descent even has (few) monster trap doors, but you can find them: if you shoot them, you get a "You cannot open this door" message, and there's a probability there's baddies behind them that come out if you grab that yellow key in the corner. The thing is: with careful inspection you can find out there's those doors, and the designers actually gave you arsenal against them: bombs/mines. Additionally, the sparcity of the trap doors make them much more immpressive/frightening. It's like d3: spawning monsters aren't interesting if they're at every item you pick up. They are, if you use them a few times a (30-90min) level, and use them in interesting places. spawning enemies somewhere along the path to the exit (when you have ~30secs to get there after the reactor is destroyed..)...
Granted, descent has better ai, and better, more varied monsters. But to some extend quake has the same properties. I often try to gun down fiends or wizards with apples, just for the fun of it. i delibaretely switch to the gl, even though it's (most often) nonsense. But i have more fun that way. Recently i have been finding myself trying to axe all kind of knights instead of shooting them. I need levels that make experimentation easy, that allow me to apply my style, that make me hit the sweet gameplay spot. And doom3 style spawning doesn't.
That doesn't mean I'd be most happy on a flat surface with monsters around me - as in descent - the environment is quite important and fun if you can use it to your advantage. Again, spawning enemies don't even make me try to use architecture to have more fun, the maximum response would be trying to exploit the environment (which is what bambuz and mccoy complained at); but mostly I'd just shoot the damn spawners in the face. fun once or maybe twice, boring after that.
interesting is: if you have played the map once or twice, you can actually see where the enemies come out of their trap doors (not the 'just spawning' ones though), but the first time, that's not really possible.
I think megaman's frustration stems partly from Quake's limited range of [skill settings].
[skill settings] would mean [...] more ability to tailor the experience to one's liking.
I hope my post makes clear that this isn't what i want.
Meh. 22 Minutes Of Yawn.
#84 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/23 13:29:59
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
I quite like the very end tho.
#85 posted by THERAILMCCOY [80.42.28.156] on 2008/05/23 13:59:21
If you're a fan of what one might call 'expressive combat', megaman, Quake seems a strange platform on which to practice it. Compared to certain other games out there, it seems like it has a very limited range of possibilities for being creative in how one approaches fighting, a variety which gets exhausted pretty quickly and which can't really be extended in a meaningful way by new maps.
A game like Crysis excels in enabling players to try a multitude of different approaches in combat, since there are so many systems that the player can exploit in order to experiment - from stealth, to physics, to vehicles, to weapon customisation, to physical ability alteration and so on. In Quake, the possibility to get creative goes about as far as "will it be the grenade launcher or the shotgun?" That isn't a criticism of the game, simply a reference to where its strengths don't lie. Given the limited possibilities there, it seems more sensible to focus on what the game was clearly designed for - reactive, close range combat.
Shambler
#86 posted by gone [91.122.99.148] on 2008/05/23 14:11:22
you have some patience hehe. well done
Give 'em Loads Of Nails, A Bit Of Room To Maneuver
#87 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.19.111] on 2008/05/23 14:25:19
and loads of monsters to shoot = fun!!!
The Shambler in the corridor kills me every time on nightmare. There is only one thing left to try for me which is to run past the Shambler when I first see him and try and find cover at that end of the corridor.
The thing is that it really sucks in that one place because there is no armour and no cover, and on skill 3 you can't escape the shamblers continuous lightning attacks.
I can enter the corridor with 100+ health and say 70 armour (blue armour, bah) and he'll still kill me, even if I fire nails at him constantly.
I don't care what anyone says - that part of the level is unbalanced on skill 3
Distrans - I hate to say this, I really do because I feel like im looking a gift-horse in the mouth, and I feel like I'm being cheeky to a very talented and renound mapper, and also Sickbase was just as bad, BUT:
Test your fucking maps at skill 3 - if you can't do it at Skill 3 it's too hard!
I like this map, and I will continue trying to record a skill 3 demo (which is what I have been trying to do) but when you get to that Shambler with enough ammo and high health/armour levels and it kills you, after the 3rd or 4th time you just get pissed off!
I mean blah blah blah. You say "well im not a massive skilled player so I test at skill 1, and get testers to help with the testing"
Bollocks!!! Rubbish! Tosh.
No other part of the map is too bad. Repetative - yes. Monotonous - yes. Encouraging of a "reserved playing style" - yes (i.e. hiding behind a corner and slowly chipping away at those flying polyps with a shotgun) but not impossible. But what - theres one report of someone JUST managing to beat the Shambler on skill 3, apart from that theres no-one else (except Sielwolf who doesn't count (soory Sielwolf - your too good))
Im being quite harsh I suppose, but I would have loved this map a lot more if it wasn't for that one single combat. I would have put some yellow armour in place of the blue armour, if only on skill 2 (where the dog ambush is), or an extra health pack next to the large box of nails next to the Shambler. That would have done it! If you had done that, the map would be free of the one single shitty combat which is ruining it for me.
I like everything about the map except for that. The textures I think are fantastic. I mean the palette shift doesn't help, but your obvious painstaking work in positioning and arranging the textures is nothing short of phenomenal! (WC1.6 - ughh - well done!) and the lighting is also really good! The general design of the entire map is brilliant - the best representation of Doom3 that Quake has ever seen! Probably on of the prettiest maps ever IMHO! Which is why I will keep trying to record a nightmare demo...
Shamb Combat.
#88 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/23 15:01:43
Did some checking of this on Nightmare skill, quicksaving before that room with 35 GA and 100 Health (which would seem a fair start).
It is possible to survive fairly consistently, but you always take a LOT of damage. The least I managed to get was 70 damage taken, but 90-120 was far more common. The Shamb isn't consistent with his behaviour, sometimes he will lightening even when you are right next to him.
The best I could manage was to go right up to him (firing NG all the time), circle behind him (taking 30 L damage), circle out again when he tried to melee, this leaves him further towards the vent so you can get cover from the corner for the next L attack, then he moves out and you take another 30 L damage, and then 10 or so from his final L attack when he dies.
It is also possible to alert him, run away, shoot a bit while he can't L you, then move into the room and take a bit of damage - but there's no guarantee you won't end up on the wrong side of the closing door.
Hehe
#89 posted by megaman [92.73.87.83] on 2008/05/23 15:02:11
was about to say: shmamblers demo actually reinforces my point, i think. All he's doing (and he's forced to!) is exploiting map/geometry and monster ai.
when i played it (skill 1, though), i found the shambler, the flying bat drones and the turret drones to be easiest ;)
Right.
#90 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/23 15:26:23
Time for some sense about this map.
Firstly, there are some obvious genuine problems:
1. The Shambler combat is broken. It doesn't work. End of story.
2. The start is unbalanced because you don't have enough options / supplies yet.
3. The final slime room is unbalanced because you're trapped and without knowing what's going to spawn where, it's unfair.
Those could be fixed easily: Couple less spawning monsters at the start, replace the Shambler with one of those Quake2 nail/saw mutant walker things (this is very obvious), slower Plasma Cunt spawns in the final slime room.
Apart from that the map is good, and this is why:
I've realised Distrans is doing what I was talking about before: Exploring new types of Quake gameplay. This is a low supplies / low power / limited manouverability / ranged enemy / exploration essential map. It is different to normal Quake but that is a good thing. Okay it needs some custom enemy to make that difference but those custom enemy are not that esoteric. But he is exploring new gameplay, just as Speeds Cogs map did or Warpspasm did.
Watching my demo made me realise this: It's very cautious, very patient, and as mega says, using geometry and AI to best effect. Because that's what the map demands. Most of the combats are actually fair if you play in the way the map demands (not all of them tho).
So, although it is obviously flawed, the concept is still a good one. Like Cogs, like Warpspasm, it's trying something new and it's a good start. What it needs is for people to be aware of the different gameplay and what it requires (just like, say, the requirement not to try to complete a Warp map in one sitting).
(Oh and this is not even considering the "This map is not designed to be completed first attempt" concept - I believe that initially *seemed* to be the concept in this map because of the few unbalanced combats that skewed the impression of the map overall - that concept could still be explored a lot fuller (yes, a whole map as "fun" as the start / shamb room / finish of this map....:S)).
Hard/nightmare Demos
#91 posted by megaman [92.73.87.83] on 2008/05/23 15:37:32
not complete, one lagged to death, the other died at the laser beams (fried!?)
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
if someone's interested in my style :P
(it's probably similar to shamlbers,this map.. well, you know the story :P)
#92 posted by Trinca [89.180.154.106] on 2008/05/23 16:01:24
YE it´s not all Distrans fall the game play...
scragbait, JPL, negke and sielwolf forgot to make a proper gameplay test in nightmare...
Shamby
#93 posted by bambuz [193.167.6.23] on 2008/05/23 16:59:27
is right.
slower plasma cunts please, that was my doom...
Also....
#94 posted by metlslime [64.175.155.252] on 2008/05/23 22:46:26
this map reminds me of "Corporal Punishment II" sort of.
Hmm Interesting
#95 posted by Kinn [86.156.76.15] on 2008/05/23 22:57:47
I haven't played this map but I'm intrigued by all the comments about its "Doom 3-like" gameplay. Wasn't Doom 3 all about cheap ambushes but at the same time giving enough health and armour so that the player was never really in any actual danger of dying?
#96 posted by quakis [81.76.76.90] on 2008/05/24 02:31:16
Enjoyable map, I quite liked it and didn't find it too difficult. I'll probably give it a few more plays before I give it a full review. Nicw work.
Entry Is Hot
#97 posted by steven_a [203.55.33.219] on 2008/05/24 03:16:56
The textures are amazing (never played Doom III). They almost seem cell-shaded, but are a little too ... brash and bright ? I f-ing love them.
Ambience had me fairly worried at one point, and the doom buttons seem appropriate. At the beginning of the game, i was muttering.. "Half-Life, Half-Life!" for some reason.
Just the intricacy of the indoor environs i think.
Quite liked the gameplay... though those suffering machine slowdown would find it annoying. (I've a 2ghz K8, 512M DDR400, FX5600). Well hard on skill 1, and Edie is a great door keeper. Laugh.
Had a quick look at the coloured lighting... Holy cow. Have to play it again when fitz is finally running well on linux. (And sound crashes my fitzquake beta just after the intro).
Dis.
#98 posted by biff_debris. [24.159.177.80] on 2008/05/24 03:26:05
You rock so hard. The overall look to the map is just so perfect, even if I still think the textures don't carry over well into Quakeland. You so need to make a D3 map, for real =D
Yep
#99 posted by Zwiffle [24.183.41.141] on 2008/05/24 06:47:17
Played it. I liked it, except some areas had mad-crazy frame rate problems until I did that -heapsize 48000 thing. Really hard, had to continuously save/load, especially the last area, which I just kind of ran past the enemies to get to the lift to exit the map. Not bad, definitely a different style of map, very difficult.
Some of the 'secrets' were awkward, since they were useless once I actually found them (the trinity, for example.)
Other than some valid complaints others may have mentioned, I thought it was good.
#100 posted by gone [91.122.61.166] on 2008/05/24 07:16:39
btw check it in fitz vs aguirre quake - it looks much darker more contrast in fitz, with pitchblack shadows everywhere
Speedy
#101 posted by nitin [124.168.94.95] on 2008/05/24 07:25:01
that applies to most maps though.
Wow...
#102 posted by distrans [59.167.236.18] on 2008/05/24 10:39:18
...this level of discussion is very heartening, thank you one and all. As speeds pointed out, the strength and diversity of reaction means I may well have produced a piece of art. Very satisfying...
I'm glad Shambler cottoned to my raison detre, after I decided to make it more than a lighting exercise (in Fitz specifically), this level was constructed with one eye firmly on the 'gameplay' thread. I initially tried for that 'more than adequate ammo / low health / oodles of armour / low monster count' idea, and some of this stayed through development. I wanted the thing to be 'nail heavy' but in such a compact level I thought introducing the SNG would be overkill. Mistake number one :) The SNG should replace the SSG in the Exit area in ALL skill levels. This I now feel would've made the rolling spawn fest after GK pick-up more enjoyable in general and even more survivable (first time round) on skill 2.
The shambler combat is broken on nightmare (I - not my testers - keep forgetting about that damn skill level), which means the combat shouldn't be there at all...and I think I'll add that one to my list of "gameplay axioms".
I wanted this one to be different, and in doing so made a couple of mistakes. I learn... maybe we all did/do.
Plenty to celebrate though, thanks again!
Good Map, But....
#103 posted by Vondur [80.87.145.19] on 2008/05/24 14:21:31
ok, this seem to be a nice level but very hard and unbalanced... here's my first run demo where i tried to survive using godmode at health 14, but still failed http://vondur.net/files/vdisp6.7z
also, the game's fps dropped down to unplayable levels (<1fps) in certain areas and when certain monsters where attacking me, making it unplayable. so i was unable to finish it...
#104 posted by Omus [131.227.158.75] on 2008/05/24 16:13:35
This map really isn't that hard even on nightmare when you play cautiously (and know the shambler dance) but like others have said, not very classic-quakey. Awesome textures and soundscape even though they were all ripped from Doom 3 :) . Would definitely play more of this..
Vondur - you need "-heapsize 48000" on the command line to fix the unplayable framerate after those first plasma-grunts.
#105 posted by Jaromir83 [87.249.134.180] on 2008/05/25 00:20:27
Again, this one is perfect, the only problem is that it makes me want more. It is more Doom3 than Doom3 itself ever was. Is it the first D3 textured level for Quake1? Is the texture pack available for other mappers? How about to map something like this RickyT23, you have similar style. Can we hope to see more maps made in this style?
I don´t know how can somebody complain about textures (fit better than original IDbase ones IMHO) or difficulty (skill 0 is just fine+placing enemies is about 1% of mappers work only, it is all about brushwork and texturing and lighting, which all are perfect in Ruined Nation).
Absolutely kewl level. Doom3 meets Half-Life1 here. I love all the details (lifting jetplane behind glass walls etc. etc.). Anybody found the SSG+slime secret yet?
There are no more sound related slowdowns after starting the game this way:
fitzquake080 -hipnotic -game quoth -heapsize 48000 +sv_aim 1 +skill 0 +sv_aim 1 +gl_texturemode gl_nearest -gl_texsort 0 -gl_detail 1 +gl_flashblend 1 +map dis_sp6
Lol!
#106 posted by RickyT23 [90.199.193.205] on 2008/05/25 02:31:08
I do love the brushwork and textures! But try it on nightmare, and you'll see the problem!
Honestly though the textures dont work well in the quake 8-bit pallette, I think some of them work better than others, however Distrans has shown real prowess with his use of the textures in this map, combined with his fantastic brushwork, the environment looks and feels like a true functional place, the detail is outstanding! The theme comes across so strongly, it's quite amazing! Most immersive map ever!
Stuck
#107 posted by nitin [124.168.92.243] on 2008/05/25 07:02:48
ok I've got the flashliht, went through the little tunnel near it and cleared out the bob and lift area. Continuing along, I just end p with a drop down ledge to the start area, what am I missing?
Oh
#108 posted by nitin [124.168.92.243] on 2008/05/25 07:12:33
and no fog here, do I have to enable it or something?
Textures
#109 posted by than [220.47.251.83] on 2008/05/25 07:51:22
I didn't really have a problem with them, but then I disable filtering completely in Quake because the textures are so low res, blurring them just makes them look like crap (subjective of course, but I don't want to feel like I'm playing Quake on an N64).
Sounds are awesome btw, and the use of earthquake triggers and func_trains was also cool.
But I've still not played it properly. Definitely want to try soon but I haven't been playing much Quake recently (done some mapping though :)
How About We Stop The Illegal And Unethical Practice?
#110 posted by gone [78.37.13.216] on 2008/05/25 11:16:27
And if you really thnink that the authors dont mind - go ahead and mail ID.
#111 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.172] on 2008/05/25 11:56:18
That would be your job. It would be very interesting what they think indeed. Just please ask generally and do NOT point to specific releases. Maybe something like "what do you guys feel about fan-created maps and mods for your older games that use artwork from the later ones". And maybe add "do you think it is unethical if for example people even use assets from completely different games in custom works for yours", for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujQ...
While you are at it please also remind them of the following quote from Masters of Doom (p 116) about a Wolfenstein 3D mod:
The music had been replaced by the "I Love You, You Love Me" theme song from the children's show Barney. And instead of killing the SS boss at the end of the episode, players had to destroy the smiling purple dinosaur.
Carmack and Romero couldn't have been more pleased.
(Yes, the next sentences go into a different direction but that is about something different than what you are pushing here.)
There also is a bit how they rave about a Star Wars Doom mod (p 166).
This could be an article for QExpo. It would definitely be interesting. Most probably they will be forced to say "we cannot allow it" for contract(?) issues though, aren't they?
Please don't turn into a certain character. Spreading bad vibes makes no-one happy.
Oh
#112 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.172] on 2008/05/25 11:58:47
But don't forget that if you succeed and id forces the removal of any maps and mods and whatsoever that use any of their content or IP in any way you won't get much love from anyone.
This Is Similar
#113 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.172] on 2008/05/25 12:27:38
Do you want all videos that use copyrighted music removed from youtube?
Omg
#114 posted by Tronyn [24.78.41.15] on 2008/05/25 12:42:50
because of this map no one will buy doom3 anymore!
looks awesome btw, haven't had a chance to play yet.
Round 2 ...
#115 posted by gone [78.37.13.216] on 2008/05/25 13:14:37
You dont want your maps (or any of your own creations)to be used without your permission (or even despite the lack of permission), ie converted to some other game withought even mentioning author`s name and realeased under some moniker, like 'JPL'. Then why do you think its cool to use the assets from copyright protected commercial games without even asking?
Maybe if you use 2-3 sounds or textures its ok (fair use or whatever) But converting the entire set of textures and releasing freely on your own - you better ask first.
Im not going to mail ID anytning. I know what they say on such issues from q3 times.
This been explained to you by no less than 3 people. If you dot care still doesnt make it right.
and you trying to hush me threataning my 'popularity' lol
I Bothered To Dig Up Something
#116 posted by gone [78.37.13.216] on 2008/05/25 13:15:03
==================================...
SOLDIER OF FORTUNE TEXTURES CONVERTED TO QUAKE 1 .WAD FORMAT
==================================...
Textures and materials from Raven Software games can be used to
make mods for our games or any other non-Raven game as long as
the following conditions apply:
1. Full credit must be given to Raven Software for any and all
materials used to make the mod. We don't want anyone taking
credit for our work. A complete list of what Raven material
was used should be clearly visible along with a link to
www.ravensoft.com.
2. The final product must be a free download or freely available
to the public for no charge. The materials cannot be used for
a commercial product and they can't be sold or used in any
other way to make money. That is a gross violation of our
licensing agreement.
3. Use of our materials in other games can't conflict with other
companies' End User License Agreements. If Epic's Unreal
Tournament EULA says that using our materials to mod their
game is prohibited or if they frown on it, for example, then
we don't want our materials used for this purpose. In short,
don't use our materials for a non-Raven game if the company
that made the game you're working with is going to frown on
it. That's about it...
Kenn Hoekstra
Project Administrator
Raven Software Corporation
^^
#117 posted by gone [78.37.13.216] on 2008/05/25 13:22:42
just as an example of company not minding the use of old games` textures in other games
Same thing ID doesnt mind the use of q2 tex (and prolly q3 too now) Not the same with their latest games.
If we - as content creators - want to get respect and retain rights over our creations we should treat other's copyright equaly. Thats my main pont, not how much money someone
gains or loses.
call me copyright nazzi or whatever, still doesnt make ripping right
Would Somebody Like To Help Me
#118 posted by nitin [124.168.92.243] on 2008/05/25 14:18:54
progress in the map :)
what do I do after the bob/lift bit with the vent that leads to the start area?
Nitin
#119 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.172] on 2008/05/25 14:32:51
If you are where I think you are then move up with the lift and (carefully) look behind the crates at the end of the room.
No...
#120 posted by Preach [131.111.213.35] on 2008/05/25 16:06:48
Nitin, I got stuck at the same place, you need to look for something to shoot to progress, all that vent stuff was a secret area, not the way past the lasers.
Re: Speeds' Post On Ravensoft
#121 posted by Tronyn [24.78.41.15] on 2008/05/25 18:50:01
that is awesome that they did that.
I think the comparison with what we are doing (making Q1SP maps/mods) with modern game production on copyright, while it works technically, doesn't really work in practice: whereas when Q1SP started, everyone had to include disclaimers (don't sell this, don't pass it off as your own, etc), now the community is more tightly knit, no one's trying to make money/steal anything, it's all for fun, mappers often release sources and sometimes permission to release something new based on it even.
Anyway, Doom3 is already pretty old, it has already come and gone. I don't think we'd be interfering with them really, if it was their new game (even Q4) that they are currently still selling that would be different.
#122 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.172] on 2008/05/25 19:15:38
I guess I am too much of a free free give give open Linux lunatic. And of course I am no artist myself in this matter.
#123 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/25 21:52:26
"Anyway, Doom3 is already pretty old, it has already come and gone. I don't think we'd be interfering with them really, if it was their new game (even Q4) that they are currently still selling that would be different."
Old or new, they still own the copyright and it's only proper to ask them for permission.
#124 posted by Jaromir83 [87.249.134.180] on 2008/05/25 23:10:43
Technical question: after installing the new graphical Catalyst driver, fog in this map (using fitzquake) seems too thick and yellow, cant see anything. Any way to fix it/disable the fog? Thanks
Type "fog 0"
#125 posted by RickyT23 [90.199.193.205] on 2008/05/25 23:32:34
on the console
#126 posted by Jaromir83 [87.249.134.180] on 2008/05/26 11:31:34
no way to fix it? the level loses a lot of atmosphere without fog.
Try
#127 posted by Spirit [213.39.158.33] on 2008/05/26 12:07:00
fog 0.05 1 1 1
and if that still is not enough increase the first number (0.05).
Nitin:
#128 posted by Omus [131.227.158.24] on 2008/05/26 12:14:30
You need to find the silver key door which is around the corner from the start area. The texture isn't very obvious that its even a door but look carefully and you will find it.
Jaromir83 - check out JPL's Slime Refinery Complex, Invein for Nehahra (not D3, but similar theme).
#129 posted by megaman [92.72.6.214] on 2008/05/26 12:59:49
I guess I am too much of a free free give give open Linux lunatic. And of course I am no artist myself in this matter.
one more reason to be anal about licenses (as long as we have this shitty copyright thing in use)
Oh
#130 posted by megaman [92.72.6.214] on 2008/05/26 13:00:17
that was directed at spirit, and of course i only wanted to quote the first part of it :(
So Where's Th Fog In Here
#131 posted by nitin [124.168.51.72] on 2008/05/26 13:17:56
anywhere near the start or it comes later? because I cant see it.
Hmmm.
#132 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/26 13:49:01
No fog nor coloured lighting in AGLQuake...
Fitzquake
#133 posted by nitin [124.168.51.72] on 2008/05/26 14:10:44
here, well fitzhack. I see coloured lighting.
Shambler,
#134 posted by rj [86.1.160.132] on 2008/05/26 15:15:20
the fog is there in aglquake, just really really thin. i had to go back & check it was there based on people's comments & the only place i could notice it was in the main shaft with the spaceship-on-a-lift thing; the rest of the level is too confined for it to have much of an effect unless you change the values (like spirit mentioned above)
I See Dead People...
#135 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/26 15:15:25
...well, dead Enforcers anyway.
Ah Yes
#136 posted by Spirit [213.39.158.33] on 2008/05/26 16:39:29
Fog is rendered very engine-specific in different engine. aguirRe's glquake, Fitzquake, Darkplaces, all very different.
Same settings in those three:
http://www.quaddicted.com/quake_en...
http://www.quaddicted.com/quake_en...
http://www.quaddicted.com/quake_en...
So...
#137 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2008/05/26 18:31:34
... it would be cool to "harmonize" fog rendering :P
All This Talk About Frantic Speed
#138 posted by inertia [24.164.67.55] on 2008/05/26 20:30:29
yet remember, maps like "Hell In A Can" are utterly fantastic, and they deviate so much from the traditional q1sp fare!
#139 posted by ijed [190.20.106.177] on 2008/05/26 20:57:35
Haven't finished this yet, because of frustration. Almost every encounter is a forewarned situation - if you're not, then you die. If you don't die then you die on the next encounter.
Think you've moved out of the 'reasonable expectation' parameters a bit, but I'll come back to the map and finish it before complaining any more.
Back Into The Fray
#140 posted by ijed [190.20.106.177] on 2008/05/26 21:26:04
On skill 1.
Found the first half pretty easy, because I knew where the monsters were.
3 eliminators = 2 enforcers, 2 defenders, 2 rocketeers?
Shambler ambush and bridge ambush were ok, but why throw in two Vorelings after the Shambler?
Theres stuff here that by convention would be secret - trinity, 1st nailgun.
Was it a late decision not to give the SSG from the start? I ask because the enemy mix is the same (at the start) skills 1-3 and the player has nothing to fight back the overpowered Quoth enemies with apart from the SG. If they get the not a secret NG then its more survivable, but only if they get the GA as well.
There was alot of stuff that just didn't work, IMHO, although the geometry and lighting were ok. Still can't say I like the texture set much either.
#116 / #117
#141 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2008/05/26 22:40:34
As long as the texture has been converted "down to" Quake, they are not the same anymore, so the copyright does not apply IMHO.
Also, as long as the texture set origin (i.e Doom3, etc..) is mentionned, then the mapper gave credit by default to the company who created the game... so need for a long copyright "story" to give credits :P
And the last, as long as we are not making money with our map, as long as we are just mapping for fun, where is the problem ? Are we stoling money ?
The only thing I could understand to be blamed for, is that I distored the original Doom3 texture set, and that's it... The only thing distrans could be blamed for is trying to innovate, and show something else than "standard" gameplay and ID textures...
Anyway, at least distrans seemed to be happy with his map, and regarding the map quality (I'm talking about architecture, etc.... but it is my own taste....) I cannot say much more than bravo ! I want to see more Doom3 textured map ;)
#142 posted by Kinn [86.156.76.15] on 2008/05/27 00:12:00
As long as the texture has been converted "down to" Quake, they are not the same anymore, so the copyright does not apply IMHO.
That's so untrue I'm not even going to bother counter-arguing.
Meh, I'm a hypocrite of sorts - I ripped assets from quake 3, hexen 2 etc. in my maps - at that point, tons of people had. Doom 3 though? I dunno, I think it's certainly dodgier ripping from Doom 3 than ripping from, say, an id or raven game from the '90s.
#143 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/27 00:47:14
"As long as the texture has been converted "down to" Quake, they are not the same anymore, so the copyright does not apply IMHO. "
So you're saying as long as I change the palette on artwork, it's free to use?
Well I Feel No Remorse From Using Ported Tex
#144 posted by RickyT23 [90.199.193.205] on 2008/05/27 01:29:25
in my maps. I'm no texture artist, and also I create my maps entirely for my own personal enjoyment. All us Quake mappers are enthusiasts, and therefore it is a pure and worthy love of these textures which compels us to use them. Surely the original artists and creators of the textures would be honoured to have us use their work for our sculptures!
I think what JPL is trying to express is that the textures arent even used in their original 24 bit states, and that the modern standard of quality isn't even met by the resulting textures, so there is no threat of the textures causing any competition to the products of their original uses.
Willem
#145 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2008/05/27 08:29:47
So you're saying as long as I change the palette on artwork, it's free to use?
Doom3 texture are 24 bits, and Quake texture are 8 bit indexed palette... and when you know that a Doom3 textures are made of normal, diffuse, shadow, etc... tga files, converting a texture down to Quake is resulting in a complete different "look".. The most difficult was to obtain almost the same rendering as Doom3 looks... I failed I know...
Otherwise why do you think I spent 2 months on that if it was just a "palette change" ?
Come on be serious, it is not like importing Hexxen wad file to Quake wad file: Doom3 converted set has nothing to doo with original Doom3 texture set... except it looks the same :P
Kinn
#146 posted by Spirit [213.39.158.16] on 2008/05/27 08:54:29
Most certainly you are. If I counted correctly Bastion was released just 41 months after Q3A, while this map was released 45 months after Doom 3. And then Quake 3 proved to have a much longer lifespan than D3. You are evil!
at that point, tons of people had should not change any "wrongness of the action" in your eyes. Also these Doom 3 textures have been used in other maps before too.
Ripping Textures.
#147 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/27 10:26:55
I understand that it's illegal.
I don't understand that, in the contexts we are talking about, it's immoral.
Id artists put the time and effort into making (Doom3) textures as their job. We pay money for Doom3 and thus pay their deserved earnings.
Then a mapper takes some textures from Doom3 and uses them in a non-commercial release for a niche market. A small amount of people (most of whom will have also bought Doom3) play and, errr, enjoy that map.
The textures don't go any further. The maps aren't sold. The converted textures aren't sold. Nobody makes any more money from using someone else's work, and nobody at Id loses any money from having those textures used.
Further, credit is given to Id, so all the players know that the mapper didn't create the textures, but some Id artist did, so artistic kudos goes to that artist.
Problem??
Shambler
#148 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2008/05/27 10:52:40
I think you nicely summarize my thoughts ;)
JPL... No. Just No.
#149 posted by Mr Fribbles [59.167.175.183] on 2008/05/27 11:26:19
So you're saying as long as I change the palette on artwork, it's free to use?
Doom3 texture are 24 bits, and Quake texture are 8 bit indexed palette... and when you know that a Doom3 textures are made of normal, diffuse, shadow, etc... tga files, converting a texture down to Quake is resulting in a complete different "look".. The most difficult was to obtain almost the same rendering as Doom3 looks... I failed I know...
Instant fail for even trying to argue that point.
But Officer...
#150 posted by Mr Fribbles [59.167.175.183] on 2008/05/27 11:35:40
...after I stole the car, I replaced the number plates, filed down the number on the license block, and resprayed it a different colour. So really, it's not the same car...
#151 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/27 11:37:50
"Problem??"
Yes, it is. Is it anything id will do anything about? Unlikely. Are they within their legal rights to do so if they choose to? Absolutely.
You can't pick and choose and rationalize. 'Oh, well they got paid for the game and it's not selling anymore and I didn't make any money off the map and blah blah blah". It's still illegal.
By The Way...
#152 posted by Mr Fribbles [59.167.175.183] on 2008/05/27 11:51:09
I pretty much agree with Shambler.
#153 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/27 11:57:10
In principle, I do as well. However, I take issue when people try to rationalize away IP theft and copyright violations. Do what you like but don't try to sugar coat it.
Whichever Person Made The Textures
#154 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.19.111] on 2008/05/27 11:58:59
has had their salary, been for a fortnight in the Bahamas, bought a new car etc etc etc.
We can't take that away from them.
Christ, I think that after playing Distrans's level people will want to go and play the real Doom 3, and a few copies might be sold directly as the result of this level!
In my band we play three covers. The rest is original, but sounds a bit like the Rolling Stones or Oasis or something.
#155 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/27 12:01:12
Stop rationalizing. It's undignified.
No ITS NOT!!!
#156 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.19.111] on 2008/05/27 12:02:35
NO ITS NOT!!!
Keep It Coming, Learning Still...
#157 posted by distrans [59.167.236.18] on 2008/05/27 12:02:53
...don't assume averyone else has added '-heapsize 128000' to their command line as a matter of course.
...fog 0.02 in the worldspawn may not appear thick enough on a lot of cards.
...people like to be challenged
Willem
#158 posted by Mr Fribbles [59.167.175.183] on 2008/05/27 12:12:48
"Problem??"
Yes, it is. Is it anything id will do anything about? Unlikely. Are they within their legal rights to do so if they choose to? Absolutely.
You can't pick and choose and rationalize. 'Oh, well they got paid for the game and it's not selling anymore and I didn't make any money off the map and blah blah blah". It's still illegal.
You're perfectly right, of course. I don't think anybody here (with any sense, anyway) is going to disagree with you.
I don't know of even a single case or incident though, in the 10+ year history of Quake user maps, where an individual was asked to stop creating or distributing Quake maps with textures from other games. This is despite the obvious ploriferation of the practice.
Naturally the inaction of the related developers in no way implies that they're OK with the practice. It does imply that it's not enough of an issue for them to feel the need to take legal action or even send a "cease and desist" to the offending parties, though. (You could of course argue that they're simply not aware of it, and in many cases this may be true, but I'm sure at least some of the related companies know that their textures are being used in QuakeX levels.)
Well, Maybe I'm Missing Something..
#159 posted by the silent [82.185.144.141] on 2008/05/27 12:41:52
...but I really don't understand why copyright issues about texes arise now and have never arisen before, like around 1996/97, when everybody was "stealing" original Q texes to majke their custom map, way before the code and stuff was made public...
How is it that no one as ever had a problem with that?
Btw, I agree with Shambler and even Willem, just wondering....
#160 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/27 12:56:08
"How is it that no one as ever had a problem with that? "
It was a problem then as well. Just because nobody goes after anybody else legally doesn't mean it wasn't wrong to do. A tree falling in the forest and all that.
Howevr - id, realistically, will never go after anyone on this stuff because they WANT you to be modding their games and spreading their IP around. The only time they would bother would probably be if you tried to make money off of it.
Fribbles
Sure, and like I said above, realistically nobody is going to get sued unless they try to make money. Legally, id (or anyone else) is more than allowed to go after people using textures in other games but from a long term standpoint, it's not worth it. Bad PR, ill will with the community, etc. It's a PR bomb that you don't want to detonate.
Doesn't make it right however, and that's what I was arguing against. The idea that it doesn't matter or it's unimportant. That's the wrong way to think about things.
Willem
#161 posted by Mr Fribbles [59.167.175.183] on 2008/05/27 12:57:02
Since you're one of the few here that can actually talk about this in a meaningful way, can you shed any more light on the issue?
There's a Q1 wad floating around somewhere that has the original UT textures in it. How do you feel about people using these textures in a Quake level?
We understand that it's illegal and/or against the game's EULA to do so. I'm not asking for Epic's legal stance on the matter. I want to know how you personally feel about the following:
1) the use of UT textures in a Quake level
2) the use of Quake textures in a UT level
I want to know your personal opinion on this. I guess I'd also like to know Epic's policy for dealing with these situations...
I understand if you don't want to discuss this, of course, but please elaborate if you feel like doing so. It would be helpful to see the other side of the coin.
#162 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/27 12:58:59
Fribbles
I can't speak for Epic and would never attempt to.
Personally, I don't have a problem with it. As a level designer, I love having more and more texture choices when making a level. But then, it's not my IP. :)
Willem
#163 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/27 13:00:00
I know it's illegal! I said that as my first line.
Yes it's IP theft and copyright violation. But that doesn't seem that BAD in these examples.
As a simple comparison: Pirating games. That is also illegal, but I'd argue in most cases, immoral: I.e. someone has done their job and deserves to get paid for it, and if a gamer is pirating a game instead of buying it, they are not paying that person their deserved earnings.
The pirate is actually negatively impacting on the game maker, but I don't see how the texture thief is actually negatively impacting on the texture artist.
Unless you're going to argue that people who play a Quake1 map with Doom3 textures will be so sated with Doom3-ness that they won't go and buy Doom3 itself...
(Incidentally I argued AGAINST pirating on here a while ago and got a fairly disinterested reaction...)
#164 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/27 13:04:42
"The pirate is actually negatively impacting on the game maker, but I don't see how the texture thief is actually negatively impacting on the texture artist. "
There are many arguments here but it's just going to add noise to another already noisy discussion and I'm sure we've annoyed distrans to high heaven with this hijack.
It's IP. The P stands for property and if you use it without the owners permission you are, legally, in the wrong.
And.
#165 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/27 13:08:40
Further to what Fribbles said (I can't believe I'm getting drawn into a serious Func_debate but at least it's not about fucking guns or politics or operating systems...!), maybe what it boils down to is the following:
Imagine the Id texture artists come on and read this thread.
They see that some mappers have stolen their textures, that they created, from Doom3 and used them in some custom Quake maps.
They know that this is IP theft and a copyright violation, although it's unlikely to be pursued.
They also know that:
The mappers paid for Doom3 and thus paid them (the artists) for their work.
Going by the comments about Doom3, the players also paid for Doom3 and thus paid them.
The mappers have given them credit for their work.
The mappers have shown appreciation for their work by deeming it interesting enough to use in a custom map, and some of the players have shown appreciation of their work too.
...so what would the artists feel about the theft of their work in this case?? Can you lot - as "creators of stuff" - imagine that in THIS particular situation??
3rd Time Lucky ^_~
#166 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/27 13:10:34
I KNOW IT'S ILLEGAL
Illegal != necessarily immoral
And if those "many arguments" aren't going to be stated, well, I for one aren't going to learn from them or heed them, am I?
Willem
#167 posted by Mr Fribbles [59.167.175.183] on 2008/05/27 13:16:19
Thanks for the comments... enlightening as always.
I've used plenty of textures from "elsewhere" in my Quake maps. I always tried to give proper credit when I was aware of the source. I would hope that in the grand scheme of things nobody really cares too much about it... certainly I would remove them if requested by the rightful owners.
You could of course hit up the developers and ask their permission, but the main reason I don't do that is the fact that it is in the realm of IP law. I don't know the laws intimately of course, but I've got the idea that the owners are legally required to protect their IP if the infringements are brought to their attention (the key word being required, whether or not they care or actually want to deal with it).
Anyone know if that's correct, or am I getting IP law confused with patent law? Is it the same/similar?
Yours sincerely,
the legal ignoramus
Shambler
#168 posted by Mr Fribbles [59.167.175.183] on 2008/05/27 13:23:12
I'd imagine one big argument from the original artists would be "those textures look like ass in the Quake palette"... :)
p.s. if the thread derailment annoys distans, he can quickload to a previous save point and keep trying different things till he gets past this section... ;)
*SNORTS*
#169 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/05/27 13:28:36
ROFLMAO, that line makes it all worth it :D
#170 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/27 13:31:09
Shambler
I agree that they probably wouldn't care. I am also aware that you are aware that it's illegal.
So what are you arguing at this point? Do you want me to agree that they wouldn't care? Fine, yes, they probably wouldn't care.
I'm not going to argue illegal vs immoral because that's a cesspool with no possible resolutions within.
Hm
#171 posted by Spirit [213.39.158.16] on 2008/05/27 13:48:43
I don't think that anyone here really meant to say that id has no IP on those textures or it is not a copyright violation to use them or anything alike.
Yes, it's their IP.
Yes, it's their copyrighted work.
No, they don't care.
So why don't we simply enjoy using such amazing work in our maps.
Frib
#172 posted by nitin [124.168.125.153] on 2008/05/27 15:33:51
from what I know about copyright/patent law, that requirement (chasing up infringements upon notice) is relevant only to patents not IP.
Some Cases I Know Of
#173 posted by gone [78.37.20.109] on 2008/05/27 16:39:14
some guy had made a UT map using quake3 textures and he (or his host) was asked to take it down by the ID software
Sock had made a texture set that used a bunch of ID`s q3 textures variations/alterations and he was asked to remove download link for that set by ID (either directly or via PQ host dunno)
Just Another Point
#174 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2008/05/27 20:18:51
I didn't stole the textures: I paid the game... Also, if Id didn't want people to reuse their hi-res textures, they would have protected a little bit more than just putting it in .pk3 that can be open with WinZip...
As well, the comparison with the car is not good: I paid the car !!!!
Nevermind...
Anf Further...
#175 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2008/05/27 20:41:17
... when you've paid your car, nobody can blame you if you are doing "tuning" on it... maybe people just laugh because it is ridiculous...
so, no problem for me: I don't want to sell my "tuned" car :P
#176 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/05/27 20:41:22
Stop digging.
#177 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2008/05/27 20:43:39
you should open your mind....
#178 posted by Jaromir83 [87.249.134.180] on 2008/05/27 20:56:24
Speeds: original UT was in direct competition with Q3 game at the time, so that is probably why ID wanted the mapper to take it down.
Any new map with D3 textures on the way? Thanks
#179 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/05/27 21:14:45
"you should open your mind...."
Imagination and fantasy won't change laws. They are what they are.
JPL
#180 posted by gone [78.37.20.109] on 2008/05/27 22:26:10
you totally dont get
please read the goddaman license for the game and the tools!
you only buy the copy of the game to play - you cant re-destribute eiher the game or any part of it
Doom III\Docs\License.txt
scroll for:
2. Permitted New Creations.
Read it please. Open your mind and try to grasp the concept of copyright and licensing
Jaromir83
#181 posted by gone [78.37.20.109] on 2008/05/27 22:32:43
And Q3 texture modification by Sock were in competition with what? (and that was like 3-4 years past q3 release too) IDs position of such things is very clear.
Any new map with D3 textures on the way?
yeah, sure: http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/v...
Not To Sound Like An Idiot
#182 posted by nitin [124.168.125.153] on 2008/05/28 01:03:57
but this really should go to GA. I think there is still plenty to say about this map :)
ROFLcopter
#183 posted by inertia [24.164.67.55] on 2008/05/28 02:57:42
*chop* *chop* *chop*
Intellectual property is an oxymoron. Get over it.
#168
#184 posted by distrans [59.167.236.18] on 2008/05/28 07:05:16
...priceless!
#185 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/28 11:31:22
"Intellectual property is an oxymoron. Get over it."
This is what people say until they have some. When that happens it suddenly becomes very important. :)
Speeds
#186 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2008/05/28 11:39:35
OK, fine, I read it, and I conclude that everybody herer now have all to erase his HD that contains Quake and all the fancy mods developed onto original Quake ! As well, for all the textures, etc... as customization is prohibited...
Interesting :P
My, Copyright, Property, Keep, Safe, Want, Mine
#187 posted by Spirit [213.39.225.169] on 2008/05/28 11:45:41
Many people download or make music mixsets and even though that is a much more EVIL thing no-one cares. It's been a grey zone forever and people like it that way.
Some of the hot tempered posts might be due to people's job in the industry?
#188 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/28 11:48:10
"Some of the hot tempered posts might be due to people's job in the industry?"
No, it's more because people's attitudes towards the issue are wrong. It may be a grey area and maybe nobody prosecutes over it but it IS important. It's like when open source people blow gaskets over GPL abuses.
#189 posted by inertia [24.164.67.55] on 2008/05/28 11:50:11
Willem:
This is what people say until they have some. When that happens it suddenly becomes very important. :)
We inhabit a situation in which IP is clearly inane, yet, we as creators of IP need the artificial monopoly of IP to get money and survive.
So, what I'm suggesting is that we don't pretend IP is morally OK, regardless of how we feel we need to use it at this present moment.
#190 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/28 11:55:32
inertia
I'm not getting into this argument as it's even more of a cesspool than the original one. However, to suggest that people's creations deserve no protection under the law is insulting at best.
EULA
#191 posted by Mr Fribbles [202.161.117.131] on 2008/05/28 12:11:46
This is straying even further from the original topic, but I think it's pretty well accepted (even in the legal community) that software EULA's are unconscionable and unlikely to hold up in court.
This is not to say that we shouldn't respect the developer's rights, but EULA's are getting more and more ridiculous as time goes on. Nobody reads them or takes them seriously.
I just love the fact that they all pretty much boil down to this: you don't own the product you just paid us money for.. you've bought the right to use it for a while, in the limited way set out in the agreement, but you can't do anything else with it, or resell it, or modify it, etc... oh, by the way, we can remove access or change the product at any time without prior notice or consent.
Sorry for going off on a tangent...
I Think
#192 posted by bambuz [91.152.87.250] on 2008/05/28 12:20:58
when someone creates something new, it should be respected, and he should be compensated and given credit.
This map probably doesn't contradict any of the above, it's more of a tribute, it's not blatantly exploiting doom3 stuff, taking away glory or income or anything.
Since the digital world enabled making copies so easily without destroying the original, the laws that have been built around the traditional ownership issues have been lagging. I don't know yet of any good concept inventions (patents come to mind as one system but it's too heavy for this stuff) to ensure some benefit to the creator of an easily copyable thing.
OT:
#193 posted by Jaromir83 [87.249.134.180] on 2008/05/28 14:23:37
Can you pls somebody link/send me the q3 radiant editor? I am probably too lame to google it, thanks. icq 259689233, email jardomir.b@seznam.cz, thanks a lot, sorry.
#194 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/05/28 14:32:09
http://www.qeradiant.com
Ffs
#195 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2008/05/28 15:39:07
Talk about the map, stop whining about copyright.
Shambler's post said it all in a nutshell anyway.
JPL - you're wrong.
Rock And Roll Dude!!!
#196 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.18.146] on 2008/05/28 15:53:43
All is fair in love and war!
If people don't like it, I'll personally kill them!
If they just want a fight, I'll still kill them.
If the policemen come to take me away, I'll give a good fight, they wont take me down easy, I might even kill them too!
Hahahaha!!
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!
Get Used To The New World Order
#197 posted by [91.121.7.211] on 2008/05/29 00:30:44
The days of fair use and sharing of creative work are over. Big Content has been pushing for years for ever more restrictive licenses and paranoid attitudes about IP. This all filters down as more and more ordinary people come to accept it as normal that all information should be jealously hoarded, and that the only legitimate form of 'tribute' comes written on a fat check.
All the people who are having aneurisms over Distran's use of the Doom 3 textures (which, incidentally, isn't the first map to have done so) I don't know whether you all work in the 'industry' or not, it's not really important. Please take some time to google 'The Right To Read' by Richard Stallman, if just one person opens their eyes to the real evil of this age this post will have been worth it.
Fair
#198 posted by steven_a [203.55.33.219] on 2008/05/29 07:07:51
... If Carmack and co didn't like the community's fair-use of textures.. they'd sure as hell do something about it. (It IS fair-use, even though it may be plenty of them. A small community of id-software groupies playing an ancient release for non-profit. No harm. It's FAIR).
More-over, he probably wouldn't want you to ask.. For plenty of reasons, but basically because he is beholden to investors and lawyers, whether he likes it or not. Possibly forcing him to say "ummm... no" in public, him and us both lose. Hell, they ENCOURAGE mod communities. It's good for business, and good for gamers.
I'd love to see a TC with these textures and Dis' eye for detail ;>
#199 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/05/29 11:41:05
Dave's not here man...
Great Map
#200 posted by nitin [124.168.125.153] on 2008/05/29 13:48:05
its pretty obvious from the start this will be a different sort of gameplay so you should adjust accordingly (obviously some people didnt).
Loved the look, the textures were employed better than in jpl's map IMHO.
Only nitpick was that bit where I got stuck, I seriously thought that area was going to lead somewhere.
Nitin
#201 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2008/05/29 14:01:11
...the textures were employed better than in jpl's map IMHO.
Yes, I agree on that point: I have to admit distrans really kick my ass there :D
Pretty Fun
#202 posted by scar3crow [66.168.90.109] on 2008/05/31 05:45:16
I liked the textures - though I admit having a hard time spotting a door initially (I was wondering why you had given me the silver key, as I didn't even see a door to open let alone unlock). I played on Easy since everyone spoke of how hard it was. Easy had a few moments of kind of toughness, where I managed to become a little frantic. The thing is, the only enemy that was a real problem were the Defenders. They were the only ones who did any considerable damage.
People spoke often of cheap moments, but the only one that seemed cheap to me was going up the stairs after the silver door, and having the Defender spawn in below you, with the lasers ahead of you. I suffered a lot of damage from that, as I had no room to move - in all other occassions, space was most definitely ample.
I played it in DarkPlaces so you know, it ran fine - maybe a tad slower than other maps, but never slow in terms of gameplay responsiveness.
I find great humor in people speaking of this map being less about running ahead, and how its different from other Quake maps, as it seemed to be more Rushing Ahead than other Quake maps for me... But I also generally play very conservatively. This could also just be an element of skill 0.
The shaft was some rather overpowered item placement, it completely nullified the existence of the Edie. Pretty solid map, at least on skill 0. Wish it was less linear though, and I do wish you had marked ... less obvious, items as secrets, as I do get curious about such things.
Alright, having just now ran around it in God mode on normal and hard, I can see that it would be quite difficult - though I had trouble even seeing the monstes due to the Pyros. It actually looked annoying at times, particularly the Eliminators, who are quite annoying even with God mode on.
But Please
#203 posted by scar3crow [66.168.90.109] on 2008/05/31 05:46:35
Make greater use of the destructible brushes - all that machinery and nothing to break!
Same goes to you Biff!
Sssssssss
#204 posted by stevan [77.46.248.14] on 2008/06/03 20:31:00
Demo Recording
#205 posted by inertia [24.164.67.55] on 2008/06/06 11:01:15
I'm playing this map (on skill 3) and I want to know: is there a way to keep a demo in record mode while I do a quickload?
JoeQuake
#206 posted by RickyT23 [86.142.194.0] on 2008/06/06 11:09:36
I think JoeQuake supports that kind of stuff...
I've never tried it..
JoeQuake
#207 posted by Ankh [192.100.124.219] on 2008/06/06 14:44:40
You can start recording a demo after quickloading in JoeQuake.
JoeQuake is amazing anyway.
Lotta Negative People In The World(ok..that Was Passive-agressive)
#208 posted by slaine [68.74.59.250] on 2008/06/07 01:44:32
I played the map on Telejano. It worked great until the exit. The gold key opens the elevator
but the elevator never comes down. I liked the map thank you. Oh, the shambler trap was about the only thing I DIDN'T have a tough battle with. Before going through the door to the trap, I shot the shambler and backed up to the closed door by the button, the shambler wouldn't follow and I shot him from a distance like the coward I am.
You May Think
#209 posted by cornelus [79.114.167.18] on 2008/06/12 22:30:21
that repeating sound that may want to be a music, is funny. but is not. its stupid and annoying.
i started playing it in joequake. i cant figure how to get past red lasers. i got the under way, but come back to the starting hall.
Cornelus
#210 posted by nitin [124.168.40.18] on 2008/06/13 00:38:38
you have to shoot something behind the lasers, the other path (through the vent) was just a diversion
Right
#211 posted by cornelus [79.114.167.231] on 2008/06/13 23:37:42
found it. i was fooled by somebody that said previously, that up the lift and behind the crates... and I was looking especially there.
Btw
#212 posted by cornelus [79.114.167.231] on 2008/06/13 23:39:46
the end difficulty is mad. the only chance (for me at least) is to run to a safer place right when u get the golden key and when near exit. and to fight the enemy from there. but of course all paths are blocked and i still got wounded...
Demo
#213 posted by Sielwolf [91.4.250.14] on 2008/06/19 01:36:15
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
8 min
Now That Was Some SeriouS Shit!!!
#214 posted by RickyT23 [90.208.141.123] on 2008/06/19 01:52:38
Nice demo Sielwolf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
I Have The Demo And Im 11 And Wugga U Better Talk To Me
#215 posted by DaRk_SpYro [24.193.67.103] on 2008/08/01 01:40:11
I'm quaker BITE ME ALL
I Have The Demo And Im 11 And Wugga U Better Talk To Me
#216 posted by DaRk_SpYro [24.193.67.103] on 2008/08/01 01:40:23
I'm quaker BITE ME ALL
I Have The Demo And Im 11 And Wugga U Better Talk To Me
#217 posted by DaRk_SpYro [24.193.67.103] on 2008/08/01 01:40:38
I'm quaker BITE ME ALL
Hmm
#218 posted by nonentity [87.194.146.225] on 2008/08/01 01:51:25
Like the dragon?
An 11yo wouldn't remember that surely...
#219 posted by Zwiffle [66.170.5.18] on 2008/08/01 19:43:56
I think there's gotta be some law against biting an 11 year old. Don't take the bait!
#220 posted by gb [89.27.211.208] on 2009/06/16 20:48:25
Replayed this a week ago, and took an extended sightseeing tour.
It's really quite an amazing map. The main thing is that it never gets boring. There's always something new and different around the corner.
Of course this results in a lot of air ducts that really don't do anything, except create a diversion. You kinda wonder why anybody would construct a base like that, similar to the DOOM3 maps, which seem to be random (good-looking) structures connected with other random (good-looking) structures.
All those niches and alcoves full of strange modules of all sorts, really just things with pipes sticking out of them, vaguely resembling boilers, or accumulators, or just some incomprehensible machinery...
It's weird, because part of me keeps asking "what IS this stuff?" and "OK, why did they create a lift for space fighters in the middle of the base?" or "what do they need BOILERS for, anyway?" but this also creates a sense of wonder. Kinda cool really.
There's not really any sense to it all, but that is part of its coolness.
I have no idea what most of these strange machines do, but they sure look cool.
I might just start to have some in my own bases. :-D
The use of sounds was cool, too, if not really done up to the level of Half-life or Doom3 (luckily, people talking to me all the time would get on my nerves). More maps should use all sorts of sounds. There are free sound databases on the internet.
I still don't really like defenders. At least not four of them in the same place with no real cover. Most Quoth monsters have too many HP for Quake's measly weapons.
SOCK.
#221 posted by Shambler [86.25.222.251] on 2010/04/03 16:29:19
You need to play this map :)
#222 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.71.179.134] on 2011/11/19 10:44:01
I know its old and stuff, but with
fitzquake085 fog looks broken
http://i.imgur.com/hKWk2.jpg
What...
#223 posted by generic [67.233.156.211] on 2011/11/19 16:48:36
An amazingly hijacked thread ;)
Easy Run
#224 posted by Orbs [80.57.99.202] on 2011/11/19 17:08:46
map didnt play smooth for me quit after first exit: 2:12

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