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Posted by gone [78.37.9.217] on 2008/04/25 21:43:04

Cogs of Conflict.
pics http://www.speeds.quaddicted.com/
map d/l http://www.speeds.quaddicted.com/m...
I dont think anyone has done something like this before. Its quite an experiment, and you might hate it. Please play it, its all about gameplay, visually its rather simple.
Have fun!
thnx to the betatesters, you have really helped me: Blackdog, Spirit, Ankel, Moaltz, biff, megaman, metlslime.

Cool, I Like This But You Die.
#1 posted by RickyT23 [90.199.193.113] on 2008/04/26 06:01:29
but its cool, it reminds me of tomb raider or something, more later!
:D
Fun 20 Mins
#2 posted by Omus [131.227.158.187] on 2008/04/26 06:03:22
Quake maps where you use the environment as your weapon isn't totally new, I'm sure a few speed maps had similar gameplay, but it was done pretty well here. One thing that would have made it more obvious that you weren't supposed to shoot the monsters would be to force the player to exhaust their ammo at the start (like put them in a shootable box or something, lol). But then again this would probably have been annoying and maybe the player should be allowed to use their weapons as a back-up from time to time.
I was quite disappointed that you couldn't explore that weird boat like thing in the end screen, unless that was part of the secret.
Speeds
#3 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2008/04/26 08:41:25
Interesting puzzle concept. Nice architecture, nice details. As rickyT23 said, it reminds mome Tomb Raider adventure...
Good try !
Ze Gameplay Masta
#4 posted by negke [82.82.180.62] on 2008/04/26 09:14:44
Nice idea. The stealth approach usually disregarded in a game like Quake. Could have been a little more varied in terms of ways how to kill the monsters (e.g. pushes, shooters, lure them onto trains or into cages). The secret!!!!
Cogs Of Conflict
#5 posted by DaZ [80.41.169.50] on 2008/04/26 09:15:45
gears of war? :)
Nice little map here, felt a bit strange at first but I got used to it and was having fun by the end :)
I Enjoyed This Quite A Bit
#6 posted by BlackDog [58.7.60.136] on 2008/04/26 16:09:35
Interesting idea, pulled off pretty well imo. A few things I liked: the visuals, the sudden shift into intense combat right at the end, and the way those three buttons at the beginning introduce the idea that you'll be solving puzzles throughout the map. Yay speeds!
Didn't find the secret. :(
Cool !
#7 posted by Barnak [76.68.249.64] on 2008/04/26 17:54:45
Cool map. I like that concept. It's underexploited in Quake.
You could make another map with this theme, mixed up with classic Quake : get into a large metal room with 50 Shamblers and not enough ammo, then you have to screw them all by pressing buttons and bar switches...
Hummm..
#8 posted by Barnak [76.68.249.64] on 2008/04/26 17:56:30
... and zombies getting in the way...
Could be fun to play this in nightmare mode under the dmsp mod (deathmatch -> SP), with 200 mnsters everywhere !
Wonderful
#9 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.38] on 2008/04/26 18:49:15
There is something so incredibly rewarding and motivating if I have to figure out how to proceed and manage to. The puzzles are very well designed and "demanding". I love it.
The horde fight in the end is a bit out-of-place though and ruined my first run. :p
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
I knew the first rooms already. (And should have known better about the end room...)
Yeah
#10 posted by RickyT23 [90.199.193.113] on 2008/04/26 19:06:22
I have a "second run" demo, which I over-wrote after the first run (got killed in the bit where you SPOILER#SPOILER#SPOILER#SPOILER#SP...
\/
\/
\/
\/
\/
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
have to jump over the buttons
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
so i decided to just quicky tap the tilde key then up and enter
But died again on another bit.
Ill do a full-un later. :-P
Got To Give Speeds
#11 posted by HeadThump [4.136.90.80] on 2008/04/26 19:29:56
the props for pulling this off. Fantastic.
For The Effort
#12 posted by gb [89.27.197.122] on 2008/04/26 20:15:44
What can I say, I didn't enjoy it. I almost quit. I normally don't quicksave (diehard mode?) and I didn't like that I was practically forced to.
"Die until you find out how it works" doesn't work so well, and it indeed reminded me of the worse puzzles in Tombraider (the instadeath ones of later games in the series.) Same goes for "try the jump until you land just right."
The fiend cage was a bit unfair. Most players will practically die there, except the ones with Quake engine physics and typical timings hardcoded in their head... Instadeaths are practically always shit.
It forces you to think exactly once for each problem. After that, it's pure mechanics.
I would enjoy one or two such setups as "spice" in a normal map. For example, I always thought it should be possible to squish the ogres with the crusher in e1m6. I love submerging monsters in lava, or dropping crates on them, or electrocuting them, or exploding them by shooting at barrels, IF IT IS OPTIONAL. Like in Quake2 warehouse etc.
I'd like to have the choice (i.e. weapons.) A whole map built around this, IMO, doesn't work. The most "fun" part for me was finding out how to ABuse things. I used the lava bridge for the shambler, for example. I just shotgunned the stupid ogres (they really don't deserve any better.) Guess that's just me. I'm not too hot on riddles or contests. I want two things from a Quake map:
1) immerse myself in alien atmosphere, gaze at cool architecture (your map was actually not bad on this part, I liked the lighting and texturing, reminds me of the original Hexen.)
2) do some target practice, fire large-caliber weapons, do trick jumps, cause infighting, and generally wreak havoc (i.e. have a ball.) I love breakables for example, or interactive map features. I love climbing crate towers for a secret. Your map has interactive things, but almost no other stuff. The ending feels tacked on, I hopped past the fiend because I had no patience left.
The stealth factor was a bit ruined by quickloading. I generally wasn't very stealthy, after I picked up the general scheme of things, why worry about alerting the shambler when there is enough cover and a giant crusher nearby, plus quickloading? Sportsmanship?!
I respect the effort, the obviously good mapping and especially doing something (relatively) different. It's not the beginning of a great friendship, though. I find it rather super-seriously academic. I'll take the double barrel shotgun and a pack of shells, plz.
But yeah, props for doing it.
Gb
#13 posted by gone [78.37.135.4] on 2008/04/26 21:11:31
demo?
#14 posted by gone [78.37.135.4] on 2008/04/26 23:21:42
oh and I forgot to mention lazy_bum as a tester ;/
Trigger Behind A Hidden Wall
#15 posted by steven_a [124.187.18.144] on 2008/04/27 03:34:16
Nice skate park ;>
#16 posted by gb [89.27.197.122] on 2008/04/27 15:26:19
Yup, will make demo later.
Gb
#17 posted by gone [78.37.153.110] on 2008/04/27 16:06:22
mail me please speeds@bk.ru - iv some questions, or come to irc quakenet #terrafusion
OK
#18 posted by gb [89.27.241.182] on 2008/04/27 19:47:00
Demo here.
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
needs 7zip to unpack.
I'll mail you Speeds.
Uhh
#19 posted by gb [89.27.241.182] on 2008/04/27 19:51:26
It might be that I accidentally had Quoth on my command line while recording, I don't know if that affects anything... just so you know.
The demo is one go, without saving etc, I actually don't know if it's even possible to load during a demo.
And:
#20 posted by gb [89.27.241.182] on 2008/04/27 19:55:41
You can see very well in the demo how I had problems "switching gears" when the end fight started. I was still in "mechanical mode", not in circle-strafing mode. I normally don't suck that bad. The effect is quite interesting.
.
#21 posted by necros [99.227.108.217] on 2008/04/27 20:18:30
i found it was sometimes a luck of the draw. you might turn the corner and a monster is facing away from you during it's pathing, or it might be facing you and get out of position.
i think some use of the transparent water as glass trick would have been nice so that you have the ability to see the situation before you blunder right into it. unless that was what you were going for, but i never really liked games where you have to die first to find out what happenes and then try again.
the one area with the pathing shambler and the two buttons on opposite sides, with a wall about player height was good. you can see the top of the shambler's head, but he can't see you which allows you to keep track of where it is. as opposed to the room where the shambler paths around a pillar and you have to press a button to raise the floor to crush it cause you can't keep track of where the shambler is much, so the first time, i ran around the corner and he was just coming around the pillar and saw me.
#22 posted by gone [91.122.99.169] on 2008/04/27 23:34:50
all the monsters that have to be turned away are always turned away - no randomness (unless maybe you played in some mod or engine that messes it?). I tried to make all the encounters survivable on the first try even if the monstesrs see you.
first-time demo or a description of where and why you died/get confused/frustrated might help
Nice...
#23 posted by metlslime [98.210.181.179] on 2008/04/27 23:35:17
I was glad i played this again -- significant additions and improvements made it worth another play. As I said in my beta feedback, designing non-standard gameplay in a quake level is a challenge.
First, you have player expectations to overcome -- quake levels usually all about action an aggressive combat, so you have to strongly communicate to the player that this level is different, or else they will approach things wrong and not enjoy it. The final release of this map does a good job by not having any normal combat until the end (the combat arena used to be earlier in the level.)
Second, there is the issue of first-person view -- if you can see a monster, it can see you unless it's facing away. Most stealth games are third-person and this allows players to plan scope out a room more safely. Necros' glass idea probably would have helped here.
There's still an issue with stealth in any game that also has combat, in that you have to make it clear to the player that combat is a bad choice in your stealth sections. Often this is done by making the enemies near-invincible, or have deadly attacks. Or, you take away the player's weapons. This level would probably have benefited by having the player totally unarmed, but on the other hand the shotgun provides a good way to survive after screwing up one or two puzzles.
Speedy did a good job of introducing the level's unique mechanics. By using distinctive and consistent button/lever types, and by repeating the "three buttons to exit the room" mechanic, he also quickly moved players past wondering *what* to do and into wondering *how* to do it, which is where the meat of the gameplay is in this level.
I think the weaknesses with this level are primarily that quake's intended gameplay goes against the stealth/puzzle design of the level. With a mod, one could easily have removed the starting weapons and/or made the monsters tougher, changed awarness radius, etc, to help support the intended gameplay and make things clearer to players. As it is, it does a pretty good job.
Yeah,
#24 posted by necros [99.227.108.217] on 2008/04/28 00:16:12
sorry if that post came across as overly negative, but as with any feedback, usually you only hear the bad stuff. :P
i agree with metl, the map showed me exactly what it was about the minute i started playing, and introduced me to different traps well (monsters being affected by lava -> lowering bridges with monsters on it -> lowering the bridge quickly as a fiend is jumping your way at the speed of light)
as for an example of an area where i was a little frustrated, i already gave you one:
the room where the shambler paths around a pillar and you have to press a button to raise the floor to crush it cause you can't keep track of where the shambler is much, so the first time, i ran around the corner and he was just coming around the pillar and saw me.
but yeah, it _was_ a good map. :) (and the mapping itself was well done, btw)
#25 posted by Trinca [89.180.40.209] on 2008/04/28 01:35:00
not my kind of map. One of the things i most like in quake is fast action with lots of blood and is something i only found in this map at end... but was fun to play lost many times but didnīt quit :p
please return to old Quake :)
Played It, No Demo
#26 posted by ijed [190.20.90.13] on 2008/04/28 05:51:43
I liked it - maybe I was lucky not to have shamblers walking into LOS right off - I haven't checked yet; were they blocked off to make this less likely?
I died on the last 'real' hellknight, first walking into him and then trying to manouvere him back onto the 128 blue lift.
The ending could have been left out, I think. I'd've preferred something based off the earlier puzzles but souped up.
Maybe frying Cthon without him noticing?
Maybe the earlier comments changed my expectations, but even so I found it a good map - reminded me of monfree. Except for the monsters.
Bleh
#27 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.155] on 2008/04/28 09:07:50
I was hoping for more first run demos. Would be interesting.
I Saw Speeds Paste The Url On Tf
#28 posted by bambuz [91.152.87.250] on 2008/04/28 13:13:54
And thought the map was a draft since there were so few monsters and since he normally makes more flamboyant designs. I also played in Quoth. So run it with quoth.
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
Spirit
#29 posted by gb [89.27.241.182] on 2008/04/28 17:01:38
You like watching 20 demos of people being crushed?
you have to strongly communicate to the player that this level is different, or else they will approach things wrong and not enjoy it.
I don't think there is more than one way to approach this map (you die if you try to deviate from the predetermined solution), which for me is part of the problem. More options might indeed be helpful rather than harmful.
#30 posted by gb [89.27.241.182] on 2008/04/28 17:05:46
all the monsters that have to be turned away are always turned away - no randomness
there is no way for the player to know that.
Blahblahblah
#31 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.155] on 2008/04/28 18:41:20
I had no problem with the map at all. I played it open-minded and successfully. The way how Speedy implemented a logical progression and teaching the player the "new" environments just rocks.
I would love to watch people's first run demos even if they are getting killed after 2 minutes just to get a glimpse into people's minds, to see how they receive and handle the hints/gameplay in this experiment.
gb: Why does the player need to know that the monsters are facing away each time if they actually are facing away each time he encounters them? Don't flame for the sake of flaming. :p
Dont Fight
#32 posted by gone [91.122.109.124] on 2008/04/28 18:45:18
I understand its not everyones cup of map and I appreciate all the comments. Its an experiment and I like to see the results.
And enyone who played and didnt comments, plz do
Here Is My Demo
#33 posted by Ankh [88.199.103.6] on 2008/04/28 19:12:06
it is nothing special. played on skill 1 and was carefull all the time so it could be boring to watch. I was also distracted by my kid at the beginning.
I died in the final arena.
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
No Quicksaves.
#34 posted by lurker [208.62.125.140] on 2008/04/28 20:45:51
Took two tries to complete. The slopes tricked me up and the narrow timing windows in a few areas blocked my progression for a while. Recordings of both attempts are available.
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
Listening
#35 posted by Preach [131.111.213.35] on 2008/04/28 21:31:17
I forgot to record my first playthrough, but on skill 1 I managed to get through first time. I did have one hairy moment when the shambler spotted me, and I killed it by dropping the bridge down after me, in the same way as the hell knights/fiend before. Took me to low health, but it worked.
One of the things that I found very useful in the map was using monster sounds, which is rarely useful in a quake level. Before entering a new area you could listen out to identify which monsters were ahead. Then for patrolling monsters you could place their location and movement by idle sounds/chainsaw dragging, and so get past without being spotted. It might help to know that ogres play the chainsaw drag sound each time they hit a path_corner, so it lets you know they're changing direction.
The last arena was surprisingly tough, but that might have been adjusting to the change in tactics. All the mechanisms in the map were well put together - the consistent designs that someone else mentioned earlier really helped, and the tutorial bits at the start worked well too. Excellent stuff!
Blahblahbabbleyadda
#36 posted by gb [89.27.229.42] on 2008/04/28 21:32:33
I wasn't flaming. Let's not even start plz. ok?
#37 posted by lazy_bum [87.206.143.32] on 2008/04/29 16:29:32
http://neuromancer.openbsd.pl/~laz...
Died in the first try like an idiot. :P
#38 posted by NahkahiiR [213.216.253.100] on 2008/04/29 17:07:28
Great idea Speeds. It's nice to see something new in this old game. In the first run on skill 0 I used only axe and felt a little disappointed in the end because I was forced to use a weapon.
As Spirit said, a little probing to people's minds doesn't hurt. I like to see how people solve puzzles in the first try.
The last note, I can't keep myself from speedrunning every map. I believe everyone has a little speedrunner in their heart that just requires awakening. I apologize that I raped your map in this 1:40 speedrun. Well, the shambler raped my ass multiple times so I guess you'll forgive. :)
http://nahkahiir.thps3.net/quake/c...
Speeds
#39 posted by Shambler [92.232.214.79] on 2008/04/29 17:56:45
Have sent demo. Died on Fiend that spawns after you collect the health over the bridge. Completed it next time.
Interesting map, pretty good in several bits. Respect to you for doing it. I'm sure there's a lot of potential here. The Shambler with the head-height dividing wall was really cool. As was the bridge section mentioned above. Actually the other Shambler was good too.
Some of the other trap combats weren't as interesting or as essential-feeling. But it's a good start!
Ummmm, that's all. Brain stopped working.
Aspokala
#40 posted by Lardarse [62.31.162.204] on 2008/04/30 07:19:11
Try it with the careful patch, perhaps?
Lardarse
#41 posted by NahkahiiR [82.128.172.73] on 2008/04/30 11:31:35
I already did so yesterday, nightmare 100% in Careful. I died many many times while running it. :)
http://nahkahiir.thps3.net/quake/c...
I Liked It
#42 posted by Scragbait [69.159.49.80] on 2008/05/02 00:36:48
I played it twice on skill 2. The first run, I used up all my ammo but for my second run, I killed all monsters except the last fiend and DK with traps or infighting.
I really liked it because it required some thought but never enough to frustrate. It also had that classic Quake - you are far from anywhere sane feel.
I did find the secret as well - worth finding for the extra scenery.
I'd like to see more maps like this.
It's A Good Map
#43 posted by ijed [190.20.71.244] on 2008/05/02 02:27:43
But I can't see Speeds wanting to make more in the same vein (am I wrong?).
It's an experiment, that worked; very well. But the type of complete change suggests you're gonna start mapping for . . . Portal?
#44 posted by gone [78.37.12.224] on 2008/05/02 03:25:14
Definately not going to make another no-weapons/sneak map. And I believe it was just the right length - any longer would become boring, or Id need to invent some different stuff.
And I dont like valve tools
About The Right Length
#45 posted by nitin [124.168.94.95] on 2008/05/24 06:14:15
I couldnt play a map like this any longer. Puzzles were ok, didnt require too much thought though.
Interesting variation attempt though, but it doesnt quite work as a standalone map.
Great Map
#46 posted by Sielwolf [91.4.233.102] on 2008/07/06 13:37:03
I could play stuff like this all day! Here my 1st and 2nd runs, couldn't find the secret yet.
ta Speedy.
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_si...
Very Cool
#47 posted by sock [88.110.143.38] on 2010/04/04 16:18:00
I read some of the comments and got the impression it was a love or hate thing. I was surprised how well it worked, the whole sneaking past AI thing. My favourite was the shambler where you had to get two buttons and then try and crush him. With limited POV AI this style could be even more fun. I like the show and tell mechanic of some of the puzzles, it guided the operation alot better. Overall a successful experiment. :)

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