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Posted by Jatz [142.162.132.23] on 2007/12/28 04:35:41

So far I've had little luck with this. I'm just trying to do this, and if I really can't get it working I'll just give it up and try it on a windows box.
http://wantonhubris.com/blog/
That looks promising and great and all, but I see no release date.
http://developer.chaoticbox.com/qu...
Quiver works, kind of. It crashes classic when I hit build, and I have no idea how to get a .map file out of it to build with the tools.
http://www.aegidian.org/gqt/jqt/in...
This ancient relic will run and I can get a .map out of it, but it won't compile a bsp without a jqt.wad, and I can't find it/have no idea what to do for that.
So anyway, if anyone has any links or advice or anything, I'd appreciate it lots.

Um
#1 posted by inertia [24.164.72.139] on 2007/12/28 23:51:00
Some old-timer came around a bit ago, talking about a mapping program he was making on/for OSX. I don't recall where that is mentioned, though.
And, this should be in the mapping help thread :)
Um
#2 posted by Blitz [67.168.57.20] on 2007/12/29 00:02:49
The "old timer" you mentioned is Warren Marshall (func_msg poster Willem) and his site is the first one that Jatz posted.
Also I think there should be a thread dedicated specifically to this kind of thing. There's definitely some promising work being done and why not have a central point where people can talk about the latest happenings?
I don't know enough about it, but GTKRadiant ( http://www.qeradiant.com/cgi-bin/t... ) seems to have been built to work on Linux as well as Windows. Whether it actually works or not I can't really say but I would hope so ;)
#3 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2007/12/29 02:46:44
I think I'm within a few weeks of releasing a beta to a few people. Not long now! I've started posting how many tasks I have left to do before I can beta it ... that isn't EVERYTHING that I have left to do but it's the items that I chose as "must have" features for a first release.
It's coiming ... slowly. :)
:)
#4 posted by inertia [24.164.72.139] on 2007/12/29 07:16:54
zoops
Gtk On Os X
#5 posted by SleepwalkR [82.83.129.156] on 2007/12/29 09:06:32
doesn't really work. You can find it here: http://www.redsaurus.net/00/ - don't come running for help though. It uses the GTK toolkit, which needs X11 on OS X. That means that it's not a native OS X port, so everything looks and works differently. If you get it working in the first place, that is. I have tried to install it several times, and it never worked.
On top of that, I don't know if you can shoehorn it into editing Quake 1 maps, although there usually are ways to do that.
I think our best bet is Warrens new editor. It looks very promising, and the progress he has made in the past weeks is rather impressive.
For what it's worth, I myself am working with the fitzquake source to get it to compile on OS X (and later on, linux) so that we have a decent engine to work with.
#6 posted by ijed [190.20.91.206] on 2007/12/29 19:23:39
Metslime, I think this could be a sticky thread - Editor Help, maybe. Seems recently there's alot more interest in the non-windows Q1 side.
#7 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2007/12/29 19:46:40
Since this thread is related to OSX, let me ask:
Is there anything that Quiver does especially nicely that you really like? Does it do anything better than Worldcraft or Radiant? If so, please describe.
.map
#8 posted by Dreadful [74.138.192.83] on 2007/12/30 05:04:39
If you want a .map file out of quiver, goto file and click export.
willem, have you put in a shear tool?
also some programs let you rotate by dialing in the degree you want to rotate. Quiver doesnt allow this :( Have you worked on this?
Suggestions For ToeTag Editor
#9 posted by than [220.47.251.83] on 2007/12/30 10:51:07
I don't know if it does this already, but when creating new primitives, it would be useful if cylinders were not just created using the formula for a circle to create the vertices. I think most mappers use 8 or 12 sided cylinders, and the 12 sided ones are snapped to the grid with 4 axis aligned to x and y and all the other faces angled to a 2:1 or 1:2 gradient when looked at in the XY view.
Hrm, maybe I didn't make sense just then, Have a look at CZG's curve tutorial for an idea of what I'm talking about :)
http://czg.leveldesign.org/curv_tu...
There are also a few good tips for creating curving pipes and helix type floors should you ever want to write built in functions for doing that kind of thing.
Generally
#10 posted by SleepwalkR [85.179.17.159] on 2007/12/30 22:42:43
It would be nice to have some sort of curve tool. It should be possible to create curves using patches (bezier or some other useful polynom base) and have the editor create brushes with a userdefinable degree of accuracy.
But maybe that's for version 2 :-)
#11 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2007/12/31 02:13:31
Well, that plus it's basically a Quake editor - Quake don't got no curves. :)
...
#12 posted by than [220.47.251.83] on 2007/12/31 05:10:36
http://czg.leveldesign.org/curv_tu...
Sleepy:
#13 posted by metlslime [67.164.90.144] on 2007/12/31 07:23:45
as with carving, it seems like it would be less problematic to create the shape you want brush-by-brush. It's tedious, but I think quake is picky enough that you will have less trouble in the long run. I find myself creating curves 3 or 4 different ways depending on how they will be used.
Hmm, though the idea of a terrain tool that is basically a field of triangular prisms with the vertexes glued together could be a time-saving device where the task is well-defined enough that an editor could be trusted not to screw it up.
Curves
#14 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.14.99] on 2007/12/31 20:21:29
Sure, manualy creating a curve is not a big problem if you know the dos and don'ts. I'm not sure whether it would be possible to have brushes created automatically using a patch as a guide, but I don't see why it should not work.
I might give it a try at some point, maybe I can come up with something useful. But first, I gotta get quake to compile on os x :-).
Frankly
#15 posted by mwh [62.31.157.102] on 2008/01/01 22:41:42
the lowest effort for this sort of thing is probably waiting for darwine to be useful, then just using the windows tools.
(which seems to work well enough on linux, not that i've tried any map editors).
#16 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/02 00:25:34
Sure, that might be the lowest effort route -- but what fun is that?
A Few Things
#17 posted by grahf [24.28.243.72] on 2008/01/05 02:20:51
Sleepwalkr wrote:
Gtk On Os X doesn't really work.
I find it works perfectly well for me. Evidence thereof:
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503...
Are all of you folks trying on intel macs? It could conceivably be broken on them, and I wouldn't know as I have a G4 powerbook... check the redsaurus site for a intel version?
On top of that, I don't know if you can shoehorn it into editing Quake 1 maps, although there usually are ways to do that.
Sure it can, the method is almost the same as how you would do it on a PC ( http://necros.planetquake.gamespy.... ), except that you have to open up the application package radiant is bundled in to get at the .game config file. (this is for gtkradiant 1.4)
For what it's worth, I myself am working with the fitzquake source to get it to compile on OS X (and later on, linux) so that we have a decent engine to work with.
This is fantastic! The existing options for an OSX enhanced glquake are good for what they are, but limited. There are faithful ports of vanilla glquake, as well as nehahra and darkplaces. DP looks fantastic with its completely rewritten renderer but runs much slower for me on high r_speeds maps than the "reference" original glquake. I like nehahra (ported by pOx) for a good mix of features and fidelity, but its limits are not high enough to play some new maps (it's based off the original nehahra.exe, you see, not aguire's more recent work).
To the original poster:
Quiver works in classic for me, but make sure not to enable 3d accelerated viewport rendering which causes all the selections and cameras to go wacky (it's much worldcraft 1.6 in that regard). I wouldn't use the builtin build tools either, as they are slow and limited in most every way. What you want are pOx's eUtils:
http://developer.chaoticbox.com/fi...
They handle complex geometry quite well, and support hint and detail (as solid and pass-through) brushes. It would be great if somebody ported these features to a pc q1 map compiler, as they are very useful.
This is a shot of my radiant game selection screen, with quiver in classic mode in the background, with a pretty abandoned map chunk loaded:
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168...
willem: one brush operation that gtkradiant does very poorly but quiver did fine is skewing groups of brushes. Radiant will freak out and send your brushes all jagged and off the grid, but quiver treats the whole selection as one unit.
I appreciate the efforts willem is putting into a native effort, but until it's ready, I will continue to advocate the trio of solutions that are highly proven in my eyes: gtkradiant, pOx's eUtils, and Nehahra. It's the best of all worlds.
Willem's Editor
#18 posted by than [220.47.251.83] on 2008/01/05 02:38:00
makes me a bit sad I don't have a mac to map with. It's looking really great already.
Worldcraft is still a nice editor for Quake mapping, but it hasn't been updated in so long, and never will be :(
Grahf
#19 posted by SleepwalkR [85.179.19.137] on 2008/01/05 11:27:42
I'm on an intel mac. GTKRadiant doesn't work properly, and truthfully, I can't be bothered to put a lot of effort to set it up. It's still an application that doesn't conform to any of the Apple GUI Guidelines and works very differently. I just don't want to use it, even if it were possible to get it to run on Intel hardware.
Regarding Fitzquake, it's coming along rather nicely:
http://rem.fov120.com/files/stuff/...
#20 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/05 17:10:09
Woot! Nice work, SleepwalkR! It'll be great to have a modern engine to run the newer maps on...
#21 posted by ericw [75.156.169.136] on 2008/01/05 20:48:24
Awesome! So you're adapting fitzquake to use SDL? If you want a hand with linux porting or testing, I'd be happy to help.
Ericw
#22 posted by SleepwalkR [85.179.10.215] on 2008/01/06 11:38:45
I might get back to you on that. Thanks!
Beta Time Almost Here
#23 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/06 12:13:11
Hey, I'm getting close to wanting to have real people try to use this editor so if you want to test ToeTag for me (with full knowledge that it may do something horrible to your level/life), send me an email about it.
I have a few guys on the list already but more couldn't hurt!
willem at wanton hubris
Thanks!
That's Great!
#24 posted by SleepwalkR [85.179.10.215] on 2008/01/06 14:14:12
Looking forward to testing it.
The same goes for Fitzquake, actually. All that's missing now is sound, and I hope to get that done today. I'll post beta versions for OS X and Windows tomorrow, if all goes well.
ToeTag Beta
#25 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/06 21:22:24
OK, so does this work for anyone besides me:
http://www.wantonhubris.com/blog/2...
This has a few known bugs and some performance things I need to address, but it SHOULD basically work. Since there is zero documentation at this point it'll be a little tough for you to decipher what's going on but since I'm using the Sparkle framework it should be easy for you to get new versions (just choose "Check for Updates..." on the application menu) or tell it to check every time ToeTag starts up.
That's it! Please let me know how horribly it crashes on your machines.
#26 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/07 11:17:52
Forgot to mention that it requires Leopard.
Nah
#27 posted by bambuz [193.167.7.16] on 2008/01/07 16:30:38
Forgot to mention that it requires Leopard.
I think it'd be better with more Cowbell instead.
I Tried
#28 posted by necros [206.186.24.146] on 2008/01/07 17:27:58
but i didn't have quake installed so i couldn't launch the editor...
maybe you should let the program start even if quake isn't installed.
and on that note, how *do* you get quake running on mac? :P
#29 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/01/07 17:34:52
Well, here's my original post on the topic:
http://wantonhubris.com/blog/2007/...
I know that SleepWalkR is doing a port of FitzQuake so maybe you want to wait for that instead. Dunno. :)
#30 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/01/07 17:35:47
And yeah, I guess I could let you start it up without Quake installed but then I have to have a bunch of extra error checking code within the editor when it goes to do various things. I'll think about it.
Quake On The Mac
#31 posted by SleepwalkR [85.179.26.150] on 2008/01/08 00:42:24
There is a decent port called Fruitz of Dojo. It's a very faithful port that looks like the original GLQuake:
http://www.fruitz-of-dojo.de/php/d...
The SDL version of Fitzquake I'm working on is coming along nicely. Everything works except for TCP/IP networking, at least on the mac. I'm working on getting it to compile on Windows and Linux, and when that's done, I'll release a beta for those platforms.
Im Sad
#32 posted by Dreadful [74.138.192.83] on 2008/01/08 01:05:17
I think you should make it usable on most all OS X at least to 10.4.0 You said modern apple machines and mine is modern. I didnt know modern meant the last 10 months. =\
#33 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/08 11:41:23
Heh, sorry! I wrote this using the new features in Objective-C 2.0 and that means Leopard is a requirement. When you upgrade your operating system, come back and give it a try!
ToeTag 0.2 Is Out
#34 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/10 14:35:34
I updated ToeTag so if you haven't downloaded it already, go for it:
http://www.wantonhubris.com/toetag...
The documentation has also been updated. I'm trying to write a few tutorials each week so there should be a nice amount of info on that site in a month or so.
If you've previously downloaded ToeTag, just start it up. The Sparkle updater should kick in and download the new version to you automagically!
Dude
#35 posted by RickyT23 [81.132.175.238] on 2008/01/10 14:52:17
I loik the look of your ToeTag editor, TBH it almost makes me wish I was a Mac user! But Im not.
Honestly though, I am a very bored person @ work when I'm at my computer, hence I spend a lot of time flicking through the net, and have been curious enough to look at the development of your editor from the phase where you started posting on Func, with a re-introduction of yourself (I am unfamiliar with your early-years work as people seem to have noted)
I'll cut to the chase:
Texture alignment module - WC 3.3 has the best texture alignment module I have experienced. I suggest you incorporate some of its features in your editor, people will love it. It has the option if selecting multiple faces, then tagging a "treat as one" box (if you so wish), then you can click some of the following buttons:
Align Top
Align Bottom
Align Left
Align Right
Center
Fit
-aswell as the arbitrary rotation, scale and alignment fields.
Also WC 3.3 features a fully functional Texture Lock feature which is a real godsend!
I dunno, its just a suggestion! :P
#36 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/01/10 15:42:48
I'll definitely keep working on the texture alignment stuff, no doubt!
Right now I have support for pan, rotation and scale settings which can be entered via a dialog (which I haven't documented yet) or the cursor keys for quick nudging.
I also support texture locking for dragging but not rotation yet.
It's coming along. :)
#37 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/01/10 15:43:47
I don't suppose the source is available for WC or Hammer or any iteration thereof is it? That would make the texture locking for rotation much easier to figure out. Heh.
Er.. Dunno!
#38 posted by RickyT23 [81.132.175.238] on 2008/01/10 16:03:58
Sorry, I'm no programmer!
Anyone??!
BTW - If you are a mapper from ye olde days of Q1 mapping, where might one be able to see thy past works of Quake maps?
#39 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/01/10 16:10:12
I don't have direct links but I used to go under the handle "Taskmaster".
Search around for "Eye Socket", "Retinal Tear" or "Warehaus" for my older Quake levels...
I also did a bunch of Quake2 stuff including some DM maps and a single player unit called "Bad Seed" that people seemed to like.
Found Them...
#40 posted by RickyT23 [81.132.175.238] on 2008/01/10 16:21:16
They're all on Quaddicted.com (surprise surprise)
The Q1 stuff that is!
You should host them on Wanton Hubris dude!
#41 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/01/10 16:31:11
That's a good idea, actually. I'll add that to my ever growing "to do" list.
Willem:
#42 posted by metlslime [64.175.155.252] on 2008/01/10 20:59:41
wasn't toetag the name of an editor from back in the old days? Is this an update of that same source code, or something brand new?
#43 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/01/10 23:09:33
That was mine too. :P It was bad though. This is a completely new code base, written from the ground up.
Worldcraft
#44 posted by than [220.47.251.83] on 2008/01/13 02:44:52
RickyT speaks the truth - WC has a few really nice features. Even in WC 1.6 you can select multiple faces and if you just want to affect say, the x alignment of all faces in the selection, but leave everything else as is, you just clear the values in the boxes that you don't want to change. It also allows you to select multiple entities, such as lights and set the value of a key on all of them at one time. I use this mainly for lights, where I create large groups of lights for selection convenience and then change the brightness/attenuation when tweaking and polishing my maps.
Yes Than
#45 posted by RickyT23 [81.132.175.238] on 2008/01/13 18:06:44
But sometimes it doesnt work, and you have to do them all individually anyway!!
:(
There's
#46 posted by ijed [190.20.106.236] on 2008/01/13 22:06:42
A nasty WC1.6a bug when slicing objects as well that crashes the editor. Every time I think I've got a handle on it it changes. It's something to do with slicing and grouping, and possibly multiple selection slices.
Basically I always save before I slice anything.
I should switch over to 3.3
Texture Alignment And Editing
#47 posted by Mr Fribbles [59.167.133.211] on 2008/01/14 10:06:26
GtkRadiant is well worth a look for its texturing stuff. Notable features:
- Can texture walls and stuff with mouse/kb shortcuts in the 3D view. For example you can grab a texture from any face, and paste it onto another face (retaining or discarding the alignment information as you please).
- Keyboard shortcuts for alignment, rotation and scale of selected face(s) in the 3D view (without having to enter the texture alignment or surface properties box).
- Can select all faces that have the selected texture with a keyboard shortcut, making it easier to replace textures or whatever without having to use find/replace.
- The source is available for you to have a look at if you'd like to see how it was done in Radiant.
It also has texture lock but to be honest it's a bit shit. I assume/hope WC/Hammer is better. In Radiant, there is some bad/imprecise rounding or something... it looks ok for a while, but then you find later that the brushes you've copied around a lot have some dodgy texture alignment which eventually becomes obvious (like a face will get rotations of 179.045 instead of 180 and similar alignment issues). It just keeps getting worse as you continue to copy stuff. It's almost worse than no texture lock, since it looks OK at a glance, but then you realise later that you have to check every single face in the map for bad alignments... sigh.
#48 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/14 11:34:01
ToeTag actually does all of that stuff, Fribbles. Hooray! Well, except for the kb shortcut for scaling. It has them for pan and rotation though...
Cool Stuff!
#49 posted by Mr Fribbles [59.167.133.211] on 2008/01/14 12:27:34
Scale is something you'd need much less often anyway... I rarely used the shortcuts for it in Radiant.
This editor of yours sounds pretty nice already. For the first time in my life I actually kinda wish I had a mac handy so I could try it. :)
#50 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/14 14:34:06
That was exactly my thinking ... scale is something that you generally need to numerically tweak anyway so keyboard shortcuts are going to be of limited value.
It's actually not all that common to want to scale by 2X or by half.
Try A 'fit' Button!
#51 posted by RickyT23 [86.139.217.8] on 2008/01/14 14:42:30
Ijed - just do it man!!! Get the ole' Quakeadapter on the go RIGHT NOW. Just install it over the top of crappy 1.6a
One annoying thig with 3.3 tho:
The little window for tex alignment - if you click the field for an attribute, so as to type in there, and then move the mouse out of the window, the typing fails, and you pressing the numbers with the mouse in one of the four 'views' causes it to zoom in and out!! So keep the cursor in the text alignment window!!
Thats the only thing that bugs me!!
For Curves...
#52 posted by than [220.47.251.83] on 2008/01/14 16:32:18
and surfaces at 45 and 26 you might want to use scale values of 0.75, 0.88, 0.94 and 1.04 a bit. I certainly use them when building non axially aligned stuff that needs neat texturing (i.e. base environments) a fair bit anyway.
#53 posted by metlslime [67.164.90.144] on 2008/01/14 17:33:53
Scale is something you'd need much less often anyway... I rarely used the shortcuts for it in Radiant.
It's actually not all that common to want to scale by 2X or by half.
Right, but if the shortcuts changed the scaling by +/- 0.1 or 0.05 at a time instead of +/- 1.0 at a time, it could actually be useful.
Stuff
#54 posted by Mr Fribbles [202.161.117.131] on 2008/01/15 02:15:05
metl: perhaps!
Willem: I'll tell you one thing you do want shortcut keys for as far as texture scaling goes... scaling by -1 to flip the texure. That's one thing you CAN'T do in stock GtkRadiant, and it shits me no end to have to go into the texture properties just to flip the texture (something you have to do fairly often for certain textures).
I guess better than scaling by -1 would be a simple toggle between + and - scale that retains the actual current scale value (e.g. if a tex on a face is scaled by 0.5, pressing the flip key would make it -0.5 and vice versa).
#55 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/15 11:31:27
That's a good idea, I'll see where I can work that one in.
PowerPC Support
#56 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2008/01/19 20:52:30
If anyone has Leopard installed on a PowerPC machine and hasn't been able to run ToeTag yet, try this version:
http://wantonhubris.com/blog/2008/...
This should work properly with PowerPC machines. I forgot about byte swapping and endian fun. Whoops. :)
That's Fantasic!
#57 posted by grahf [24.28.243.72] on 2008/01/21 00:37:26
I can't wait to try it.

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