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Posted by Tronyn [24.78.143.88] on 2009/11/01 00:30:20
Here's a Halloween map release from Patrick Martin and myself: http://www.quaddicted.com/filebase... Screenshot: http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/... This is a single map Halloween-preview of the upcoming Arcanum project, featuring maps by Tronyn and others, and mod by PM. There's a small readme included, be sure to read it, and especially to set the right skybox. I thought it'd be appropriate to release this map on Halloween, as although it is in Arcanum now it was originally created for a Halloween mapping contest (the other entry was Scragbait's "Fall Cleaning," see how well this map stands up to that). I apologize for the giant download (18MB for one map), but it's basically that or nothing - like the Russians leading up to WWI, PM and I have no plans for a "partial mobilization." I'll try to make a smaller version available in the next while (ie not tonight!). Enjoy.

Played It
#1 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/11/01 10:22:55
Mitigated impression.
+:
Gameplay is good, architecture and details are kicking ass... some places are a little bit crampy, but OMG, the castle is very well designed: where did you picked all these ideas ?
-: The ambience must be improved. I don't know who created the music, but for the sake of God, please change it. I really think it could be improved with ambience sounds like done in "distrans' Ruined Nation" or my "Fort Driant" map. With some patience, you can find some very good satanic ambience sounds on the internet that would fit well to replace the music...
Anyway, thanks a lot for this Happy Halloween map
Keep it up !!!
Forgot To Mention...
#2 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/11/01 10:29:30
... that after first try (that crashes the game with a HostError after typing 1 trying to get the 2 fists... I think I read correctly...), then I reloaded the map, and cheated a little bit (impulse 9...)...
#3 posted by onetruepurple [89.75.203.25] on 2009/11/01 10:35:39
This map is like a bastard child of nsoe and zer :D
I expected another huge, 300+ monsters and 300+ vis days map, but was positively surprised to see something small and compact (and yet quite hard). Facing the high-level enemies with nothing but the SG + Chainsaw + the ruby wand thing was pretty refreshing (thank hell for infighting).
Visually it was hot. I really have a soft spot for maps which mix many wads to create a new theme, rather than sticking to just one wad. The combination of id1/Knave/doom2 here works very well, there wasn't a single thing that looked out of place (maybe except for one crappy skulls texture from doom). The lighting was pretty dark but it felt like a good addition to the gameplay.
When's the full pack coming out??
Oh And
#4 posted by onetruepurple [89.75.203.25] on 2009/11/01 10:37:22
I didn't really mind the music TBH. It was pretty arcadey but it somehow fit. I think.
Argh
#5 posted by Spirit [80.171.28.36] on 2009/11/01 11:00:02
I am dying and dying and dying. Skill 0 for me then.
#6 posted by Spirit [80.171.28.36] on 2009/11/01 11:12:07
This is really not my type of map.
#7 posted by Spirit [80.171.28.36] on 2009/11/01 12:14:57
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
#8 posted by Spirit [80.171.28.36] on 2009/11/01 12:15:59
Wait, what ruby wand thing?
I liked the music, although the loop is very short.
#9 posted by Drew [174.89.237.7] on 2009/11/01 17:15:54
I LOVED the lo fi old school music. Though I think if you could get your hands on something more droney and low key it would be better overall.
But the music that you did pick perfectly suits this map. It's like the maps I imagined in my head when I first started playing quake.
I can't overstate how much I love this fucking map, seriously.
I died on my first run too though!Just because I couldn't get up that stupid ladder without taking damage...
Demo
#10 posted by Drew [174.89.237.7] on 2009/11/01 17:25:04
skill 3
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
#11 posted by onetruepurple [89.75.203.25] on 2009/11/01 18:57:09
Wait, what ruby wand thing?
A fairly obvious secret ;)
Hmm
#12 posted by nonentity [81.141.21.25] on 2009/11/01 19:44:22
That screenshot looks like E1M5 always looked in my mind
Er, Um...
#13 posted by Drew [174.89.237.7] on 2009/11/01 20:43:27
skill 2
#14 posted by Orl [76.98.214.54] on 2009/11/01 21:16:07
A very nice map. The addition of the ruby wand made things much smoother, I wouldn't mind seeing it in future maps.
My only real quarrel is the beginning, which is very hard when you are limited in arsenal against all the rottweilers and zombies. After that though, it gets fairly easier and more enjoyable.
I'd also like to point out that this map certainly has some great detail to it, unfortunately a lot of it is obscured by the darkness, but maybe that's intentional.
But either way, a very fine and very challenging map for the start of what is to come, a great episode. :)
About The Wand...
#15 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/01 23:06:18
The secret in arcanum1 originally contained a chainsaw, but I asked Tronyn if I can replace it with the wand at the last minute, and he gave the okay.
The ruby wand was designed as a light source and a short ranged fallback weapon. Despite unlimited use, its damage rate is the worst of all weapons, less than even the unmodified Quake axe. Offensively, it is about as effective as the pistol from Doom or the hand blaster from Quake2. To prevent it from becoming completely useless, it has some special properties.
While held until it is fired, the wand builds up energy, shedding light while doing so. When fully charged, the wand glows brightly. The more energy that builds up, the stronger the attack will be when the wand is discharged. A direct hit from a fully charged blast will also force the target struck flying backwards. It takes slightly over a second for the wand to fully charge. With preparation, it is effective for ambushing and dispatching weaker enemies. In addition to the above, merely holding the wand also reduces damage the player takes by one point per hit.
Re: #3
#16 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/01 23:09:56
The full arcanum pack will be released when it is ready.
My focus now is to finish the mod and start map for A Roman Wilderness of Pain, both of which are close to completion. Tronyn is more or less finished with his maps.
Trick Or Treat
#17 posted by ericw [198.166.8.130] on 2009/11/01 23:27:39
Great map :)
The architecture inside the castle was awesome; I loved the statue and other details.
The only thing I felt could have been better was the monster selection. Felt like I was mostly fighting zombies and sorcerers, which have quite similar attacks and got a bit stale. Having the riot controller and chainsaw was awesome, but there weren't many close-range monsters to use them on.
Looking forward to the rest of rest of the episode!
Hexen Pea-shooter Makes A Come Back - Laugh
#18 posted by stevenaaus [110.20.9.126] on 2009/11/02 10:05:10
I like it. Like it lots 8>
Music, broken stairs, elusive first key, zombies on coffins getting gibbed, sacrifice chamber entrance, green missile attacks... The wand is v.good too, really fits in.
Minuses: bored with the too loud riot controller + chainsaw, and it'd be more balanced if you could gib stunned zombies.
..
#19 posted by stevenaaus [110.20.9.126] on 2009/11/02 10:07:04
was a little hard on skill 1. Too many z's
So There Was A Riot Controller Too
#20 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.144] on 2009/11/02 10:23:01
What else did I miss? o_O
Laugh :P
#21 posted by stevenaaus [110.20.9.126] on 2009/11/02 10:55:25
~Was~ a pretty dark and twisted map. Can't remember where it was.
Riot Controller
#22 posted by generic [67.233.191.41] on 2009/11/02 14:24:43
Atop a stack of boxes by the stairs in front of the statue.
This was definitely a twisted map thanks in part to the Doom textures splattered throughout. Gameplay at first was a bit overwhelming. A pentagram secret in the graveyard area could have helped. There was an HOM on the crypt in front of the blocked basement door, BTW.
The architecture was aces all around, with a couple of odd texture choices. For instance, why do the white marble crosses in the basement show seams? And, is that Kell's fang texture on the ceiling? Still, this map has some super-sexy construction. I just wish the trees didn't look so cartoon-y.
The music was good, too. It reminded me of a classic horror movie track. The ability to switch it off would have been nice at times. And, I agree, the chainsaw is definitely too loud and takes away from the ambiance.
I can't wait for the rest of this pack to come out!
Cheers!
More Comments
#23 posted by onetruepurple [89.75.203.25] on 2009/11/02 19:17:20
PM: How strong is the wand blast? Same as a DBS hit?
I love that the melee weapons now always behead on the final hit, makes them so much more rewarding to use :D And yeah, the chainsaw probably needs its sounds silenced a bit.
The poison mechanism needs work. It's not immediately obvious that the player gets poisoned (a mere bprint is not noticeable enough). How about adding some sound effect, or some visual feedback like Travail?
In retrospect, the beginning is kind of too hard - this might be mitigated by giving the player some armor shards (coins or whatever they are) at the start.
Also I think that the sorcerers/acolytes/whatevers are pretty much indistinguishable from eachother, especially if you don't face them at once.
Otherwise this is a really good piece of work :D
Re: #23
#24 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/02 21:58:25
Uncharged wand shots hit for 15 damage, while a fully charged shot hits for 50 to 60 damage. For now, zombies cannot be gibbed by the wand regardless of damage, but that will probably be changed to an auto-gib later, at least in the mods for Tronyn's upcoming releases.
Spirit Is Easily Deterred!
#25 posted by Baker [69.223.180.88] on 2009/11/03 05:59:15
Played it through the end although I was frustrated at first. Died many times.
Never have I been so worried about zombies and dogs before.
The ruby wand's light effect made it my favorite weapon ... irrationally for sure.
Didn't feel very Quakey, which made me think how cool it is that Quake can be modded like a piece of clay.
The map was too hard for casual play really, but is far easier than ... say ... The Middle Evil!
Nah... Not For Me.
#26 posted by the silent [82.185.144.141] on 2009/11/03 08:58:16
Definitely.
Sorry guys, I understand the amount of work that went into this, but this one just doesn't cut it for me.
Architecturally wise there are some good moments, but the overall feeling and choice of textures make me shudder... (it's just me, mind you) The ice cream cone trees I always hated (along with all "forest" maps in Quake 1, it's just the wrong game for those IMHO).
Gameplay, well... Had like 10 tries on skill 3, 2 on 1, never made it past the zombies in the first courtyard, got bored as hell and godmoded to the end. Can't say much about it, but it seems that I would have got bored in every other room as in the first...
Automatic beheading seems a little pointless, after you spent some 10 seconds hacking away at a fiend, or a Shambler... Random would be a lot more realistic. If one could behead a thing with a single slash, I suppose that would be the first...
Hmm, did something change in the dogs' attack? They seem to bite from a larger distance than before, a bit like quoth monsters unavoidable melee attack.
I'm sure the finished opus will be a whole different kind of business, but this one I did not like one bit...
This Looks Great
#27 posted by nitin [210.153.143.248] on 2009/11/03 12:29:03
but how far off is the full thing? May as well wait if its not too distant.
Response
#28 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/03 15:04:47
I wanted to add a light source to Quake, but I did not want a flashlight toggled via non-standard impulse like in Quoth. That meant adding either a temporary powerup or a weapon. I choose the weapon route. Then it was time to decide weapon appearance. Since a wand was easier for me to build than some handgun from space, the wand was made.
I am not too happy with the wand as implemented in the arcdemo because it is a bit too weak and toggles with the shotgun. Since there will be a third weapon that uses impulse 2, and juggling more than two weapons on one impulse is annoying, I will power up the wand to about shotgun strength (i.e., 48 or so damage per second) so that it will replace the shotgun completely, much like how the chainsaw replaces the axe for impulse 1.
* * *
The point of automatic beheading is to prevent medic monsters from resurrecting monsters that have lost their heads. There will be a few monsters capable of reviving fallen monsters as long as their bodies have not been gibbed or beheaded. This gives a reason to use the axe or chainsaw. Also, random beheadings may be more realistic and fun, but they are potentially game breaking imbalanced.
* * *
I have no idea when Arcanum will be ready. First, I need to finish my contributions to A Roman Wilderness of Pain before I can resume work on custom features for Arcanum and Unforgiven.
#29 posted by onetruepurple [89.75.203.25] on 2009/11/03 19:10:59
Hmm, did something change in the dogs' attack? They seem to bite from a larger distance than before, a bit like quoth monsters unavoidable melee attack.
Was wondering the same, tbh. Was the dog behavior changed?
Dogs
#30 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/03 19:37:19
The attack code was changed to allow dogs hit fat monsters such as dragons and miss against ghosts. Against nearly anything else, such as players, the attack range is the same as standard Quake.
That said, the arcdemo progs is a rush job ripping stuff out from the unfinished Roman/Drake mod. It is quite possible something broke along the way.
Wand
#31 posted by Drew [174.89.237.7] on 2009/11/04 00:20:33
that wand was supposed to light up the area? because it just gave of an orange glow that obscured my vision...
is there a command to change that in fitz?
#32 posted by necros [99.227.133.158] on 2009/11/04 00:26:41
sounds like you have gl_flashblend set to 1.
#33 posted by Willem [24.163.61.78] on 2009/11/04 00:58:23
"gl_flashblend" - AKA WTF was Carmack thinking?
Haha
#34 posted by Drew [174.89.237.7] on 2009/11/04 03:04:22
perfect!
thanks!
#35 posted by Spirit [213.39.146.79] on 2009/11/04 18:24:07
Added to the Quake Injector. You need to load the sky manually though.
Could someone write a short description, 1-2 sentences? I have a hard time on this.
#36 posted by onetruepurple [89.75.203.25] on 2009/11/04 18:34:19
Could someone write a short description, 1-2 sentences? I have a hard time on this.
"Small sized palace/catacomb map with a lot of close combat and strong Zerstörer vibes. A foretaste of an upcoming Q1SP release."
Thank You!
#37 posted by Spirit [213.39.146.79] on 2009/11/04 18:56:11
Bollox Gameplay.
#38 posted by Shambler [212.183.140.16] on 2009/11/04 19:47:11
I godmoded through it due to the start. Don't think I've ever had to do that with a proper map before. Not sure whose idea it was to force the player to attack zombies in h2h where there's no way to avoid their attacks, but it simply doesn't work as a gameplay mode.
The design is fine apart from the trees, I hope the gameplay is fixed for the full release.
Opening
#39 posted by stevenaaus [110.20.59.118] on 2009/11/04 20:52:17
Zombies in h2h where there's no way to avoid their attacks ... simply doesn't work as a gameplay mode
I don't agree. The zombie/dog melee in the deluge was the highlight for me; something you don't see everyday. It probably should have been easier though, but even as it was i only died about ... five and a half times before realising you have to resort to the "save/progress/save" shuffle. Making a demo would be fairly frustrating, but at least it's at the beginning.
Trees... meh. They're ok.
Trees
#40 posted by Drew [132.205.226.228] on 2009/11/04 21:28:23
The trees were super simplistic, definitely. it kind of matched that old school vibe but maybe it went overboard - I liked it. the simplicity was almost audacious, and I've always appreciated the way that tronyn mixes incredibly technical shit with stupidly simple shit.
wow I'm just pure eloquence, aren't I?
I found the zombie combat to be way to hard as well (like all of Indian SUmmer) but I didn't die my first time through, and it has only killed me once since then.
The wand should definitely have gibb power at max voltage. it would be satisfying, though it would have a potentially big effect on gameplay
Well.
#41 posted by Shambler [212.183.134.129] on 2009/11/04 22:29:13
Stevenaus, you're obviously a complete freak. No offence or anything.
>before realising you have to resort to the "save/progress/save" shuffle.
Errrr, exactly.
Even that super-hard quoth base map (whatever it was) wasn't that bad, nor was Wankspasm.
Sweet
#42 posted by [Kona] [118.93.63.73] on 2009/11/04 23:36:41
Yeah i'll wait till the full Arcanum is released so i can enjoy it in it's full intended glory (and that zombie crap can be fixed if everyone has to godmode it).
A Roman Wilderness of Pain before, Arcanum and Unforgiven??? WICKED GUYS! Get working Patrick :D
I remembering starting Unforgiven with you Tronyn in 2001. Almost 10 yrs development? lol. That's some dedication at least!!! :D
When I Played It...
#43 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/05 01:36:45
My problem with the beginning of Arcanum1 is not dying, but finishing that section with enough health to survive the next part. Running around with 25 or so health and no ammo afterwards is not fun. I often waste shells knocking down some zombies before running up to one to hack it down. Also, trying to jump on to some of the coffins just so the player can reach and chop up zombies is annoying. I would not mind a few grenades or a temporary damage powerup to let the shotgun gib some zombies.
#44 posted by onetruepurple [89.75.203.25] on 2009/11/05 11:19:27
I would not mind a few grenades or a temporary damage powerup
Or just less Zombies..
Ger_many Said Ok..
#45 posted by m8one [87.78.205.48] on 2009/11/06 08:40:26
..and thats what it is.
We are waiting for the pack,
thinking it deserves one more hack,
but in gleeful expectations of a frag....
....
blablabla...
Haha sorry, but this is IMHO great!
You did it very well, no compromises...
Cheers from the Germans!
We're waiting in vain....
P.S. the wand thing is actually not a "weapon" IMO yet,
too less effect i think, but idea in hole concept is thumbs up!!!!
come!
Oh And Drew
#46 posted by Ger_many [87.78.205.48] on 2009/11/06 09:04:38
your .dem is great. you stood strong!
A Few Responses
#47 posted by Tronyn [24.78.143.88] on 2009/11/07 09:28:45
generic: Yeah I used Kell's Fang texture - originally the light sources (ie windows) inside the mansion used lightning lighting (ie flash on and off) as well... if you've ever seen "Event Horizon" (yeah I know all his other movies are shit), I wanted to evoke that "flesh tied to the skylight" feeling. That said maybe it wasn't the best choice.
silent: good observation; it's mostly a weird cross between my laziness and ambition that verifies your idea; I'm like well I want X feature (ie a forest, which Quake doesn't handle well at all...), and I ALSO want to make something really massive/outdoors... so yeah you get exactly the mix you were saying...
[Kona]: Lol yeah, it's been a while! Glad to see you're still around. I can say (I think) for sure when PM and I release "A Roman Wilderness of Pain" soonish that it'll be the ONLY Q1SP pack in development for 10 years, since I started it in 1999.
Heh
#48 posted by Tronyn [24.78.143.88] on 2009/11/07 09:30:21
and by silent I mean drew, and silent, sorry it wasn't your type of thing - and Shambler, and other peeps, I guess I always find my own maps too easy - on hard I can kill all the zombies without loading - probably because it's my design, I can't help but know the best strategies/where everything is off the bat. anyway I'm glad to had this feedback, gameplay will be tweaked for the episode version. Good thing.
Don't Worry Tronyn.
#49 posted by the silent [79.36.202.164] on 2009/11/07 16:06:58
With how much I loved NSOE, you still have some 15 awful map packs to go, before I can really complain...
That's some mileage to go.
And, I'm sure I'll love Arcanum as well, in its finished form...
Tronyn...
#50 posted by generic [67.233.191.41] on 2009/11/07 22:32:32
Have a look at Fat Controller's Swamp & Towne. His trees weren't the greatest, but they worked.
I can't wait for the final release!
#51 posted by necros [99.227.133.158] on 2009/11/08 00:52:04
this map looks great :)
it's also very hard, like your previous maps, tronyn. too hard :(
i had to resort to god mode a few times with 6 hp/no armour.
having to kill about 20 zombies at the start with the axe was annoying. also, the lightning outside destroyed performance for some reason, so i had to play the map with r_dynamic 0.
i'm not sure i'm really on-board with the wand weapon. because of the way it works, the dps it puts out is essentially the same, whether you are shooting continuously or letting it charge up. the fact it has limited range makes it useless for sniping which is where a weapon like this would have shined.
fighting the necromancer guys was fun. the first one had an interesting tracking/bouncing fire ball attack that was fun to dodge. fighting the 6 necromancers with the acid spit was less fun. the only way up onto the upper tier is on the one ladder (which you have to jump on each rung to climb) so if you fall down (as i did) you are relegated to shooting them from below resulting in a boring fight.
if the vore hadn't been there, i would probably have been inclined to stay on the upper tier instead of jumping down.
still, all in all, it was fun, but could have the frustration level cut down by giving a little more health in general.
thanks!
Why The Wand Works As Is...
#52 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/08 04:55:01
The point of the wand charging is to light up overly dark rooms and to add extra damage to the first shot in a series of shots. The player who wants the highest damage rate from the wand should fire it continuously. It is possible to match the damage rate with charged shots only, but you need precise timing to shoot at the moment the wand charges fully each time.
The short range of the wand works as intended. Most monsters in Quake stink at long range fighting. If the wand has long enough range for sniping, then every time the player encounters monsters incapable of fighting back, the player would be wise to swap to the wand and plink away, just to save ammo. Encouraging or forcing the player to use an overly weak weapon frequently is probably a bad idea. That said, if the wand is to replace the shotgun, the damage rate and range of the former must match or exceed the latter.
#53 posted by metlslime [98.248.107.212] on 2009/11/08 08:26:47
Encouraging or forcing the player to use an overly weak weapon frequently is probably a bad idea.
Yes. This was a minor flaw in quake 2's design. If people can do something that isn't fun but that gives them an advantage in a game, they will do it and rightly blame the designers when they don't have fun.
#54 posted by necros [99.227.133.158] on 2009/11/08 22:02:53
hm, i always felt long range sniping with the shotgun was just another aspect of the game. it can be boring if there's too much of it, but sniping a couple of monsters here and there doesn't bother me that much.
We've Removed It
#55 posted by ijed [190.20.65.72] on 2009/11/08 22:16:49
And to be honest it's kind of tedious playing with normal Quake weapons now. We have tailored them to our preferences, but the above mentioned type of counter-gameplay logic is much less.
Still a long way to go though.
Re: #54
#56 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/09 00:03:47
The thing about the shotgun is it has limited ammo. The player can snipe until his shells run out. The wand in the arcdemo has unlimited ammo. If it has long range, then most long range fights become pointless. The player just stands there and shoots monsters for about a minute before moving on, without wasting any resources.
Re: Shotgun
#57 posted by metlslime [98.248.107.212] on 2009/11/09 01:08:33
Yes, the ammo is the difference. Quake2 blaster has no ammo cost. Quake / Quake 2 shotgun can be used to snipe, but you always have the question in your head "would this ammo be better used in close combat?" Especially since the SSG gives a better damage/ammo ratio.
The quake axe has unlimited ammo too, but you use it with the tradeoff of having at melee range.
Tronyn & Patrick Martin
#58 posted by Lardarse [62.31.162.25] on 2009/11/09 19:17:02
are the new necros & Kell...
So what we have here is unbalanced combat guided by one new toy, two old toys, and one very badly excetued gimmick, in a map where the standard of geometry is largely undetailed and a little out of proportion, with distracting music layered over the top. Yep, that's the spirit of the late nineties nailed down quite nicely. Except that this is 2009, honey. Almost 2010...
You'd think that having to get up close and personal with a zombie to kill it would be a good idea, and yeah, it is, except that it just doesn't work here, with the number of zombies that you have to face, so there's unavoidable damage there. Some of them are in places that aren't easily enough reachable, meaning yet more unavoidable damage. And on the occasions where you don't have to kill them to progress, you need to take care of them anyway, otherewise there will be even more unavoidable damage as you try to kill something else. Unless you make that something else get angry at a zombie. But then, why are you the only one who can gib zombies?
Then there's the ruby wand, which is an interesting backup weapon (which you do need, due to complacent ammo placements in the early part of the map), which can do SSG levels of damage per hit given time, with knockback that will maybe buy you enough time to recharge. Except that you're plunged into almost darkness after you fire, meaning that it's hard for you to aim for a follow-up shot or dodge anything that you didn't hit. And yes, if you're going to insist on placing zombies like you did in that map, then it does need to gib zombies. On a direct hit, at the very least. With more reasonable monster placements, it might not be necessary.
The chainsaw doesn't improve kill speed enough to be worth it, given that the axe can already be used at faster than the traditional rate by repeatedly clicking (a necessary change, because otherwise the zombie encounter at the start of the map is an order of magnitude more unreasonable). The riot controller is as excessive as always, effectively delivering 2 SSG blats for 2 ammo instead of the more usual 4, making the normal shotgun now completely useless. Obseleting weapons is a bad idea. Normally, the shotgun has the advantages of lower spread and ammo conservation; the riot controller's mass of pellets makes the spread no longer an issue, and ammo cost makes conservation a non-issue as well.
Overall, I'd say that this offering is about as good as Quoth plus any recent map that uses it. Which really isn't saying that much. But it speaks volumes about where the Quake community is headed, right now...
At least it's short. That's about the only good thing that I can find to say about this.
Time For Some Coffee
#59 posted by stevenaaus [110.20.50.27] on 2009/11/09 21:07:48
if you're going to insist on placing zombies like you did in that map, then it does need to gib zombies
Zombies short range attacks would be no fight against long range gibbing. And though infighting doesn't kill zombies, it was useful to get them on their back, and then take out as they rose. It was good to get up close and personal with these slaggers instead of chicken fighting them with a GL as is the norm.
Re the axe and shotgun... These two weapons have been hackneyed to death, and their models and effects were only passable 13 years ago. I won't miss them one half second.
At least it's short
Too hard *and* too short. Maybe you should go play Quake 2
;>
Lardarse
#60 posted by Tronyn [24.78.143.88] on 2009/11/09 23:44:53
heh, well thanks for the feedback, although there are definitely better way maps than this map in Quoth (and actually in Arcanum if you'll believe it). We'll be tweaking the gameplay; it's a good thing we released this as a preview (it was a last minute decision). Not sure about being called honey. Anyway if you're depressed about the Quake scene you can always play something else or wait for ijed's project to come out.
Weapon Comments
#61 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/10 00:47:49
The chainsaw is about 50% stronger than the axe. Chainsaw has a rate of 120 damage per second, while the axe in the arcdemo has a rate of 80 damage per second. Aside from that, the chainsaw feels Doomy and the one from Zerstorer feels Quakey too.
Quick note about the axe. You do not need to click the fire button repeatedly to make it swing faster. All you need to do to swing faster is hit something.
I was tempted to power down the Riot Controller. In fact, I considered changing the weapon to an automatic shotgun, which can be upgraded back to its original function with an Equalizer powerup. However, purists who like the Riot Controller from Zerstorer and other paks that use it would probably be howling mad to see this beast of a weapon changed too much.
Zombies
#62 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/10 00:49:50
I find zombies to be a binary monster. With a grenade or rocket launcher, zombies are not a threat. Without a launcher, zombies are indestructible unless the player finds a quad or lures a shambler or vore over for some infighting. Also, any other monster that infights with a zombie is as good as dead. Either the zombie gets pinned indefinitely, which means the other monster is locked down attacking the zombie, or the zombie will eventually kill the attacker.
Riot Controller
#63 posted by necros [99.227.133.158] on 2009/11/10 03:19:46
i just think the whole weapon is stupid because it fires two shots consecutively, whether you want it to or not.
da fuk, like i can't let go of the trigger or something?
it would be a more interesting weapon if, for example, it fired it's double shots only if the fire button was held down. if you try to fire two shots but seperately (letting go in between) it would fire slower.
like how the plasma rifle in doom/2 has a long cooldown animation so sometimes it's better to just hold the trigger down, but can make the choice difficult if you're trying to conserve ammo.
also, i felt the wand was a missed opportunity w/respect to zombies. having a ton of zombies is fine if you can deal with them, and the limited range and ramping damage of the wand is conducive to that kind of thing: you can't just blast zombies over and over as it takes time to build up a charge and the range is limited, so you must enter a zombie's threat zone before you can blow it away. a mistake of firing too soon (before a charge is powerful enough to gib it) punishes the player with lost time (it will fall to the ground and you have to wait for it to get back up).
this will make fighting multiple zombies in tense situations more difficult because you'll need to time your wand shots in the heat of battle without being overpowering since zombies are still fairly weak monsters.
Necros
#64 posted by PM [72.216.13.139] on 2009/11/10 04:42:38
I see your point on the Riot Controller. Still, if I changed how the weapon worked, it would not feel the same. Could be better, could be worse. (On the other hand, allowing the player to shoot one, two, or however many shots he wants would make monster weapons code easier for me to write.) If I had a gripe about the riotgun, its combination of good damage rate and ammo efficiency makes it dominate the game a bit too much, similar to the super shotgun in Doom2 and Doom3: RoE. Despite its faults, the riotgun was fun in any mod it appeared in.
I agree with you about the wand in zombie fights. I did not have time to think about that when building the arcdemo progs. That will be fixed later.
Riot Gun...
#65 posted by metlslime [173.11.92.50] on 2009/11/10 05:03:55
i actually like it. I think what makes it work is that you have a fixed amount of damage that you will do when you pull the trigger, but it's spread over time so you have to maintain your aim during that time period.
It would be interesting to see this taken even further, you could have a lightning gun / rail gun hybrid that does a railgun amount of damage per shot, but it is dispersed across a period of time like the LG, so you have to keep a bead on the target for ~3 seconds to make sure all the damage connects. This would be the same as an railgun when used against slow enemies, but like the LG when attempting to use on fast-moving enemies, with the added disadvantage that you wouldn't want to waste the entire shot on a weak or almost-dead enemy.
Getting back to the the charging-up mechanic, i think the most important part of it is that you can save up damage before you are visible to an enemy, or before the enemy has woken up, then take a shot when in sight. The simplest use of this is that you can have a charge ready before an encounter starts. The other good use of it is ducking in and out of cover, you can use it against enemies that are dangerous when they are in line-of-sight rather than using a similar DPS weapon that requires continuous line-of-sight.
#66 posted by metlslime [98.248.107.212] on 2009/11/10 09:37:24
...you wouldn't want to waste the entire shot on a weak or almost-dead enemy.
But, it occurs to me that this would be useful against a clump of weak enemies. (which is also true for railguns, i guess, but only if you can line up the enemies)
Stuff.
#67 posted by Shambler [146.191.228.22] on 2009/11/10 11:50:58
Riot Controller is awesome. Powerful but a slight disadvantage to it, spot on.
Zombies aren't really binary, they just need to be used differently. This is a good attempt, but only an attempt because it doesn't quite work. Give the player some armour or more health or place the Zombies in a more easily lurable place or something and it could have worked fine.
Glad to see it will be tweaked.
#68 posted by necros [99.227.133.158] on 2009/11/10 20:26:59
it didn't help that the zombies had increased range. ironically, if the zombies had had their normal crappy aiming code, that fight might have been ok.
It Was Fun For Me !
#69 posted by Mic H3y [151.66.162.26] on 2009/12/16 00:39:43
I disagree with all those criticism..
I enjoyed the map!.. (except for those too much high/out of scale graves) , setting was good (outdoor at last!).
For me the main thing in a level is the setting/atmosphere, and "Arcanum" got it !
Also stay tuned for my first Quake maps
Binary Zombies
#70 posted by drohnwerks [62.30.139.49] on 2010/01/01 12:14:55
I never understood why zombies couldn't be gibbed with the axe - it seems logical to me that they should :(
#71 posted by necros [99.227.133.158] on 2010/01/01 20:35:33
but only when you swing horizontally.
Interesting Idea
#72 posted by sock [88.110.143.38] on 2010/04/04 19:02:17
I actually completed this without dying on skill 0! I am surprised! :) The thing that drove me completely nuts was the music! I could not hear anything else except the music, no combat, no idea where the AI was, it totally ruined the experience for me. I could not find any impulse that turned it off and don't have any tools to open the pak file and delete the damn music file. I really think you need to make maps without music or make the music file optional download ONLY.
The layout was confusing, kills zombies, cellar magically opens, walk to end of cave and find locked door. Accidently found blue key (entrance was hidden) and then have to walk right back outside to unlock front door. The other blocked cellar entrance should of opened and the blue key should of been next to it.
It would of been nice to find some connection to why I was gibbing zombies to unlock a cellar. Maybe the zombies drop a body part that powers the wand. When the wand is at full strength the player can destroy the cellar door. A map with this type of theme needs something crazy and dramatic, especially something unique relating to the environment.
The zombie/axe thing was ok but it should of been clearer what to do and with a smaller group of zombies at first. I started out with a massive crowd at the front gate and wondered what to do. I have never seen the axe gib a zombie before, so a new gameplay mechanic has to be shown much better. You should also create a new zombie type so that players know there is something different.
I liked the inside choice of routes up to the second floor with the broken stairs. I discovered the button at the top which unlocked the lower door by accident. I missed the riot gun until it was too late. The ladder up to the balcony was weird, especially after I am use to using quoth ladder mechanics. I really enjoyed killing those damn wizards with a chainsaw!
Overall it was an interesting idea which looked cool, had some unusual combat but the crazy music drove me nuts! :P
#73 posted by necros [99.227.131.204] on 2010/04/04 20:58:47
this just popped in my head, but i cool way to introduce the axe-beheading zombies mechanic would have been to have a dead marine surrounded by maybe 4 zombies, all with their heads cut off and one of the zombies has dead marine's axe stuck in the ground between the head and body. ^_^
haha brain fart. o.o
</swipe>
#74 posted by ijed [190.20.76.173] on 2010/04/05 04:06:35
#75 posted by yhe1 [71.109.88.59] on 2010/04/05 04:56:14
The music file was not inside a pak file, just delete earth.wav

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