Func_Msgboard: Thought 1- Preparatory Editor Learning Regardless Of Mapping Desire.

News | Forum | People | FAQ | Links | Register | Log in

|  | Thought 1- Preparatory Editor Learning Regardless Of Mapping Desire.

Posted by Shambler [210.86.111.28] on 2003/04/22 04:33:18

If there`s one problem that gets in the way of making maps, it`s not knowing how to map. Profound indeed. A related problem that by the time one gets round to learning to map, games have moved on, you`ve lost inspiration and indeed relevance and purpose (small, dedicated scenes like this aside).
How to keep up with the times, eh? (You may notice that this thread doesn`t entirely sit with my next thread.)
I had an idea. A new game engine comes out, sometimes with a game attached to it (say, Unreal), sometimes without (say,....oh it`s far too bloody obvious). One has mapping urges but perhaps no inspiration whatsoever for that particular game. So what you do, as soon as the game is played and the editor available, learn to map for it. Doesn`t matter what and don`t think about releasing. Just learn the editor and what works for mapping. Play around a bit, make a few test maps, then ignore it.
The purpose being, of course, that when a game that does inspire your mapping is released using that engine, you are halfway there. You can put your ideas into action quicker and be more relevant and timely to the current game`s scene. For example if you were a Quake mapper who`d learnt Unreal mapping, you might find WOT or UT inspiring you. Or an HL mapper who`d learnt Q3A mapping might put it into action for Elite Force or RTCW.
Is this making sense here?? I know it`s an idea focused on "the next big thing" and whatever is "popular at the time". But then again it`s also about genuine mapping desire, and making it easier to put that desire into action when the games are still fresh.

Bleh
#1 posted by Vondur [195.128.65.237] on 2003/04/22 05:25:47
if you wanna keep up with time, you can learn howto map for some popular engine on which will be released a number of games (take a look at q3)
for the next step i`d recommend learning doom3 editing, since its next version will be released after 5 years after d3 release (jc himself said so) he also said that there won`t be new engines released every 2 years. so this depends on universe you love more. if you like quake related stuff, choose q3/d3 technology. if you like unreal universe, learn ued.
and if you`re psycho circus/blood2/avp* fanatic go learn lithtech editing.
...
#2 posted by wrath [195.58.111.103] on 2003/04/22 10:30:33
or just learn the editor you need to do what you want. if you put your back into it, you can break one open in about a week or so - and that will give you a fair amount of cunning to start from.
this is much easier if you have someone to ask, face to face, mind you. but most current editors out there have pretty decent documentation.
aah, fuck it, I dont know.
B====================D
#3 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.232.28] on 2003/04/22 11:43:45
Providing that you already have experience with editors and their concepts, then like wrath said, you should be able to learn an editor in a week or so. If you`re a complete newbie who doesn`t know anything, then obviously by the time you really get the hang of the editor and map making, the game will be "old" and everyone else will have moved on.
Granted, it`s rather simplistic, but I learned Cube map making in 2 days or so.
Von
#4 posted by cyBeAr [213.65.179.30] on 2003/04/22 14:55:07
I think jc changed that to that a new engine will be made not too long after d3 but that the one made then should last a long time.
Rpg
#5 posted by nitin [61.9.128.173] on 2003/04/22 21:11:03
if that is the case, why do many quakers who want to map for anything unreal-based find it difficult and vice versa too (albeit it seems to be easier switching from Ued to bsp based editing apparently)?
And to make a good map, you have to learn the particular entities and scripting etc for the gmae you map for (again this is more emphasized on the sp side).
#6 posted by Vodka [81.3.153.228] on 2003/04/22 22:24:07
ued is frustrating and buggy.
you need a lot of patience and motivation to map with it.
the idea is that you either have fun creating and playing with editor or like the game you are mapping for.
learning the editor for knowledge sake makes sense only for those planning to make career in gamedesign
Replies...
#7 posted by Shambler [210.86.110.13] on 2003/04/23 02:46:16
RPG - see nitin`s answer. I`m also meaning, learning to map well, not just to know how to make a box in the editor (although that seems to have served *you* well so far :P).
Speedy -
"the idea is that you either have fun creating and playing with editor or like the game you are mapping for.
learning the editor for knowledge sake makes sense only for those planning to make career in gamedesign"
Nope... It could make sense for anyone, as most big engines (Id, Unreal, Lithtech) are used to make a wide variety of games. For example: Q3A is released. You don`t like it. You don`t want to learn to map for it. Then, 2 years later, RTCW is released. You like it lots and want to map for it. NOW you have to learn to map in the Q3A engine - something you could have learnt years ago. You`re wasting current mapping time.
It`s kinda obvious the way engine usage works, that learning to map for a big engine, regardless of whether you like the game it first shipped with, will set you in good stead as far as future games which might inspire you. Unless learning to map is really THAT EASY and something you can do in a week *cough*.
Yes
#8 posted by Vondur [195.128.65.237] on 2003/04/23 03:10:06
usually any editor available is easy enough to learn for one week. yet there are proper docs ships with it usually, and forums with lots of helpfull fellows...
only thing u need is just strong desire to map :)
UED...
#9 posted by metlslime [207.111.214.194] on 2003/04/23 05:09:10
requires a LOT of desire.
Nt
#10 posted by bascule [134.146.9.19] on 2003/04/23 05:23:53
Shambler, FYI, you may not know you can use html quote tags < q > and < /q > for this effect:
quote
Nitin, Shambler
#11 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.232.28] on 2003/04/23 17:29:38
Finding it difficult to switch to Unreal says nothing about the length of time it would take to actually learn it. When I say it takes about a week, I presume that the mapper does not get frustrated after 30 minutes of work and then go off searching for porn. Although I have no evidence to support it, I contend that it would take about a week for someone already familiar with making good levels (but not with that technology).
After that weeks time, if the mapper has past experience with level design (like if I were to start learning UED now) then he should be able to apply that knowledge and make good looking maps. That is to say, after learning for one week, to make a room like this ( http://rpg.quakepit.com/images/map... ) depends less on my technical ability in the editor than my knowledge of what looks good and what doesn't. My example of Cube was just a minor example, considering that the maps are not as complicated as games like Quake or Unreal. It would indeed take longer to learn editors for these games.
And indeed, to make a good map you have to know that game's entities. But we are talking about learning to map for a specific engine, not a specific game. Entities change from game to game, even though some remain the same. And besides, even though I map almost exclusively for Quake, I still don't know the names and keys for all the entities. Such a thing is solely a practise in memorization and has nothing to do with a particular person's talent or ability to make inventive use of those entities. Perusing the list once or twice would probably be enough to give you an idea of what you can and cannot do.
Will Power
#12 posted by daftpunk [194.217.194.138] on 2003/04/23 17:43:57
yea, shambler, some people just cant learn an editor if they hate the game which runs those maps. i know it would have made sense to learn q3rad and then hope that a better game came out (well, youd actually get to know about it too) but a man is a complex thing and sometimes one can lose interest quickly...
May Be Its Hard For You To Understand
#13 posted by Vodka [81.3.153.132] on 2003/04/23 20:53:52
cause you are not mapping yourself
pretend you plan to make maps for the doom3 and go learn q3radiant
maybe you dont plan to, but force yourself - you`d feel exactly the same way I would be feeling learning latest ued, just thinking I might want to make levels for some future games based on Unreal warfare (or whats ut2 tech called)
Stop Your Whining
#14 posted by wrath [195.58.111.103] on 2003/04/24 12:22:16
If you wanna map, you learn the tools.
If you wanna push pixels, you learn the tools.
The more tools you know, and the better you know them - the better you can pour your mind into the work instead of wrestling with your tools.
Is photoshop biting you on the ass? Well - boh-fucking-ho, here is a dime. Call someone who cares.
UED is good enough for the folks at epic and legend - they are good enough for you.
Radiant clones are used professionally at tons of development houses, they are good enough for you too.
Wow
#15 posted by Kell [80.195.16.144] on 2003/04/24 15:14:53
wrath - I feel so...enlightened. That is exactly the sort of insight, wit and articulacy that makes this community what it is :)
Kell
#16 posted by wrath [217.211.83.31] on 2003/04/24 15:21:52
why, thank you.
#17 posted by Vodka [81.3.153.134] on 2003/04/24 21:31:20
wrath - the amazing flame machine
Hoho.
#18 posted by Shambler [210.86.111.150] on 2003/04/25 02:12:14
wrath - I feel so...enlightened. That is exactly the sort of insight, wit and articulacy that makes this community what it is :)
It`s exactly the sort of insight that makes wrath a valuable, nay, essential, part of this community =). Although in some ways, behind the spikes, he`s hinting at a point that comes to my mind - that people arguing against this concept seem to want immediate mapping gratification - they`re unwilling to put the hard work in now unless they get some reward now. Understandable of course, I guess I`m advocated a more "goody goody homework on time don`t put off until tomorrow etc etc" approach.
BTW...
#19 posted by Shambler [210.86.111.150] on 2003/04/25 02:22:54
Anyone guessed that this is quite a personal topic?? Under the guise of a general discussion (which it still works as, OK), it`s actually a lament that I`ve come up with far too many map ideas for someone who never learnt to map. And the longer I`ve left it before trying to learn and trying to put these ideas into action, the less relevant they become. Games move on, gamers move on, mapping standards move on, hell even my own inspiration moves on.
So I`m left with pages of scribbled notes and a wish that I`d learnt to do something with them years ago. Having said that, almost all of these are for the "basic games" but still if I`d learnt to edit straight away then it would have made a hell of a lot of difference....and if I knew how to edit for them I`d feel able to have such inspiration for later games...
Grump grump.
*blush*
#20 posted by wrath [195.58.111.103] on 2003/04/25 04:57:11
<quote>wrath - the amazing flame machine</quote>
That was a flame? Iīm shocked. And a teeny bit awed.
<quote>Although in some ways, behind the spikes, he`s hinting at a point that comes to my mind</quote>
Yeah, I could go fluffy bunnies and cotton candy on you, but that would require some effort. Iīm quite content shooting from the hip.
Itīs just that the gimme-gimme mentality of the average internet pundit has been getting under my skin as of late.
"I wanīt free downloads, they owe me!"
No they fucking donīt.
"I wanīt to do blizzard style cutscenes with normal mapped high-poly characters engaging in ICO-style hand-animated moves. What you say? I have to learn filmbox, maya and sell my soul? The hell with it. Iīm a 21st century digital kid - I wanīt it all."
Spoiled brats.
I mustīve missed the memo that said we can use cpu --> cortex information transfers, welcome back from the future mister - hereīs a manual - do it the old fashioned way.
Deal.
(Also, this fucking board ate my first post - so this ineloquent heap of drivel was brought to you courtesy of bad code.)
#21 posted by wrath [195.58.111.103] on 2003/04/25 04:57:36
<urk!>
Shambler
#22 posted by daftpunk [147.197.200.13] on 2003/04/25 07:25:26
if you work on it this summer, i`m sure you can start making something. wait for school/college/whatever to give you a break and start mapping.
cmon, not that hard if you wanna.
i`m not mapping because i`m doing something else but i WOULD have the time and the energy if i wanted
and yea, UK is pretty cold right now! best weather to sit in front of the pc.
Shamb|mapping
#23 posted by Vodka [81.3.154.134] on 2003/04/26 23:54:31
Go ahead and try it. You might even like it :)
The only problem is the ammount of time it takes if you want to make something quality
Heh...
#24 posted by Shambler [210.86.111.150] on 2003/04/27 02:29:34
> The only problem is the ammount of time it takes if you want to make something quality
That`s what I`m scared of. Hell I`m still going to be playing catch up to games released in 2001 when I get back to my own PC...
The Point Being...
#25 posted by Shambler [210.86.111.150] on 2003/04/27 02:30:45
I wish that I`d got started with mapping several years ago. About 98 would have been good LOL.
And I wish I`d had ideas like this ^^^ too...
Shambler
#26 posted by Vondur [213.247.187.250] on 2003/04/27 04:11:02
stop whining, go map already
Shamb
#27 posted by Kell [80.195.16.144] on 2003/04/27 07:59:22
I started mapping in 97, not that late, and still wish I'd been able to start earlier.
But mostly, I wish I hadn't had to rely on someone elses machine for a year, do without a machine and net access entirely for over a year, miss out on everything Quake related for that time and get myself into debt just to be able to map.
But that's what happened. I still built Contract Revoked. I know, had I been in better circumstances, I could have built and released it 2 years earlier. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I had.
The point is, if you really want - no, if you really *need* - to map, you will.
Actually, the point is
stop whining, go map already
Well
#28 posted by daftpunk [147.197.200.13] on 2003/04/27 17:29:22
you could always wait till you retire from a job and have all the time you want (wank a bit, watch tv, map a bit...repeat ad nauseam).
nooo, i`m serious!
ok, i`ll shut up.
ps, i`m fucking pissed off with these ````
Thoughts...
#29 posted by Shambler [210.86.110.175] on 2003/04/30 01:57:34
An interesting thought has cropped up comparing this thread to the other one about mapping dying out (for whatever reasons)....sorry personal stuff again...
Maybe it isn`t too late to learn. Maybe as games progress and get harder and more futile to map for, the status of mapping lags way behind, it doesn`t progress at the same speed that game releases do. This is from a mapper`s perspective though, I`m sure players of new FPS games would be happy to have more maps, but for mappers and mapping communities the new games are not so relevant as older games to map for as well as playing...
Sorry this is going a bit OT here but it was an interesting conjunction of the two ideas...
Another On-topic Thought...
#30 posted by Shambler [210.86.111.242] on 2003/04/30 20:21:38
Further reason why preparatory learning might be good - mapping quality standards increase over time. A good map made immediately after a game`s release might only be an average map in a year`s time when loads of similarly good maps have been released. If you have a head start with experience in the editor, then you`ll have a head start making maps that are considered high quality by the standards of the time.
Uhmmm... I Dont Agree...
#31 posted by Auhsan [62.82.215.35] on 2003/05/02 23:34:48
A good map it is always a good map. If it is in the engine limitations that is make with, has a good atmosphere and a solid theme and it takes full advantage of the gameplay options that the game offers it is a good map.
But if the quality of the map it is evaluated be its number of tris, a good map isnt a good map anymore :). It is just a bit sad, I know :P.
...
#32 posted by wrath [195.58.111.103] on 2003/05/03 07:51:33
the dev cycle of todays games requires more organisation, money and time than ever. I think it is natural that so will amateur modding and mapping.
deal. :)

Post A Reply:

Name: |
Title: |
Body: |

Website copyright © 2002-2011 John Fitzgibbons. All posts are copyright their respective authors.