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Posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/08/04 17:12:37

Please read this and have a think about.
Another old-skool character and I have been having an interesting discussion about this: About how this community (QMap/#tf community, that is) has changed, how to some extent it has deteriorated due to both losing several prominent members and gaining fewer replacements and being marginalised by increasingly popular newer games, how it's mostly failed to adapt to newer games, but also how being fully integrated with newer games would lose the strong spirit a smaller community has.
And, most interestingly, how it can improve and thrive.
First, consider a few obvious truths:
The community has lost many prominent older members (through circumstance rather than abandonment), and it has gained fewer new ones.
Less people are making less maps these days.
Quake is less popular these days both for players and mappers.
There has been some acceptance and encouragment of newer games, but not much, and very little interaction with wider gaming communities.
These issues will continue to cause a steady decline in the community, I think that's inevitable as time progresses.
BUT...
Then consider what purpose this community can have and remain true to itself and the original spirit....I think that purpose is to have a smallish mapping community, with a focus on quality mapping, where mappers for all sorts of games are encouraged, accepted, and promoted, but where the smaller size of the community, and presence of some "long-serving" members creates a more intimate atmosphere, where discussions can be more indepth and where people's voices can be heard clearer (rather than being swamped as they would be in a UT2k4 community). And of course where Quake, and other old-skool games, is promoted and encouraged.
So, a more general community than what it has been, but one that benefits from a smaller size, and acceptance of all sorts of games.
I think Doom3 will definitely help in this regard, I think many old-skool characters are interesting in mapping for it, I think - well, hope - that will bring people back in this community, somewhere they can rely on to have a good mixture of high-level discussion and banter about such games without being swamped by 36534534 n00bs in other communities.
Finally...
What can we do as individuals to help this?? Not sure. Be open I guess, to new games and new members. Have a good idea of what this community stands for (including, quality of produce), and promote the benefits of that to people, i.e. encourage people to partake but make it clear what's expected. Accept various "tangential" aspects into the community, including tangential news. Have respect for each other and recognise the difference between traditional banter and pointless abuse. Don't be forced to contribute anything but feel encouraged to do so, and particularly encourage those who do.
Finally, thanks and respect to metslime for Func_Msgboard, he has really done his bit.

Further...
#1 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/08/04 17:27:51
<pushplay_atwork> it's an interesting topic and yet I have no comment on it what so
ever
<inert> what is needed in that thread is not "oh gee dont let qw die blah" but "these
are the ways we can keep it alive"
<Shambler> well push, i count you as someone good who has come into the community
<pushplay_atwork> thank you
<Shambler> someone who maps a bit, has done some interesting stuff, hangs out and
talks shit
<pushplay_atwork> that's unquestionably the nicest thing that was ever said to me
here
<Shambler> heh
<nonentity> pushplay_atwork, and you've got a good arse too :p
<biff|DOOM3> bah, hes a poser
* pushplay_atwork shakes it a little for ne
<Shambler> <inert> what is needed in that thread is not "oh gee dont let qw die blah"
but "these are the ways we can keep it alive"
<Shambler> yes
<Shambler> well
<biff|DOOM3> see? SEE?
<Shambler> i've tried
<Shambler> moaning about the good old days is hardly relevant
<Shambler> seeing what role the community has is much more important
<pushplay_atwork> I think generally being encouraging is probably the best thing we
can do
<pushplay_atwork> I'm sure there are lots of small things though
<inert> take for example #mapcenter
<Friction> #fapcenter
<biff|DOOM3> never went there, I dont think.
<inert> there are good mappers in there but basically they arent mature or are
incompitable with our community
<Friction> wait, you're saying we're mature
<Friction> inert: REALITY CHECK
<pushplay_atwork> heh
<biff|DOOM3> incompitable?
<inert> biff stfu
<inert> fric u too
<Friction> inert: bees.
<inert> hey
<biff|DOOM3> kissit, honey.
<inert> no im serious
<inert> OH WAIT
<Friction> i'm not!
<RPG|h0t> Considering the massive size of Shambler's posts, it's impressive that there
are no typos.
<inert> not mature, lame
<inert> we're are 9/10 they are 10/10
<pushplay_atwork> I went to the mapcenter community before I started comming here
<inert> k
<Friction> RPG|h0t: considering massive size of shambler's... i stopped reading at that
point
<pushplay_atwork> that place just never stuck with me
* inert goes to mow lawn then to judo center then to Robert Kurson "Shadow Divers"
talk
<inert> bye
<Shambler> rpg: there's plenty of grammatical slackness i'm sure
<Shambler> besides typing approximately 500 trillion words of fps map reviews honed
my skillz
<Shambler> though, i still use 3 fingers to type with lol
<Shambler> and one of those is for backspace/enter only
* nonentity thinks Shambler just types his posts in Word first
<nonentity> I would
<Killes> why do u guys never fight in here ?
<Killes> http://celephais.net/board/view_th...
<Shambler> rooofls
<Shambler> sometimes but not that one
<Shambler> hah
<Shambler> i started the beef thread
<Shambler> i thought that was a pretty good one
*** biff|DOOM3 is now known as biffBATH
<pushplay_atwork> it was funny for a couple days
<biffBATH> jub in teh tub.
<Killes> some aspects such as talking silly instead of serious on the forum are an issue
that pops up on the goth forum i hang out on too
<pushplay_atwork> I like how we don't worry about staying on topic in func_
<pushplay_atwork> it all just flows naturally
<Killes> we do on our site, but we limit our number of threads/topics, were not
supposed to post doubles, supposed to stay in topic
<Killes> saving place and centralizing stuff a bit better
<Shambler> push: a mixture of both is ideal
<Shambler> you've gotta have a balance there
<RPG|h0t> I dislike how someone makes a post on Func and then everyone discusses
it here, and doesn't post on Func.
<Killes> but its difficult, theres the serious threads which are very good if they dont get
spoilt by bickering, and then theres a bit too many stupid threads like "what colour is
your underwear" and other sillness like that
<RPG|h0t> This limits the amount of responses, and creates no log or archive for future
reference.
<pushplay_atwork> RPG: that's true
<pushplay_atwork> and that's what we're doing now really
<nonentity> Indeed
<pushplay_atwork> someone should take minutes and post them
<Shambler> exactly
<Shambler> stop it!
<RPG|h0t> ...which is exactly why I said that.
<nonentity> Well, someone just bung this on func
<nonentity> But yes
<nonentity> Stop, go use the forum
Well
#2 posted by Kinn [81.7.55.157] on 2004/08/04 17:43:34
I dare say I'll be Q1SP mapping 'til the cows come home, although probably with custom engines/Q3BSP type stuff in the future. I don't want to lose sight of what it is that makes Quake special, yet at the same time I often get frustrated at the limitations of it's technology.
#3 posted by Scampie [66.231.198.188] on 2004/08/04 18:19:53
nobody new comes becuase as a mapping community, we're pretty now and focused on a game that only our group plays. plus, despite our focus, we're the least organized, least on topic, and generally the least technically minded save a few souls.
Wtf?
#4 posted by Scampie [66.231.198.188] on 2004/08/04 18:20:56
we're pretty now and focused on a game that only our group plays
that should be
we're pretty subpar and focused on a game that only our group plays
goddamn func_qmap ghosts
Hrm
#5 posted by NotoriousRay [216.48.10.50] on 2004/08/04 21:15:03
killes should be ignored as to having any type of intelligent input on this topic as he contributes nothing other than the occasional flamewar in terrafusion. remove the morons out the way.</flame>
Also, an issue you didn't bring up is that when members of this community stop mapping, either consciously or due to whatever circumstances, they often still remain regulars of this board and in #tf.
That being said, I think more people need to just make an effort to be more productive. I also think new members coming into quake mapping in particular are thrown off by the hard-to-find tools and rather large amount of knowledge on the subject that we all know but isn't formally documented anywhere I don't know what kind of formal knowledge base would suit this though.
Yet Another Thread Like This
#6 posted by cyBeAr [213.65.179.30] on 2004/08/04 22:22:12
Also, an issue you didn't bring up is that when members of this community stop mapping, either consciously or due to whatever circumstances, they often still remain regulars of this board and in #tf.
Very true, at least #tf (mabe the board too to some extent but hardly as much) is more of a social institution for people with a long online history together - many people here (including me) have moved on from qboard to qmap ending up here and "lived" in #tf for five years so even if you don't really map anymore you still want to be around.
In any case there are a lot of mapping knowledge on the board (even if a large portion of it might be dormant and need to be provoked by questions to come out) so I don't there's any danger of this place dying anytime soon....and if you want a more active mapping community - then be more active!
Hmm...
#7 posted by metlslime [64.124.188.211] on 2004/08/05 00:21:13
If quality people leave, the only real solution is to bring in new quality people. The trick is how do we attract quality people without attracting too many total people?
There is a maximum size beyond which a forum like this doesn't work. If the group here grew too much bigger, it would get to a point where there was either too much to read in the GA thread, or too many new discussion threads to keep track of.
I think Doom 3 interest is the best way to get new people in general, and I guess the way to attract new quality people is for us to have enough expertise on Doom 3 that they will want to hang out here. For Quake 3 we never had the monopoly on talent that would make us the first stop for mapping questions and such. For doom3 we won't either, but if we have enough experts on the tech and tools, we stand a chance to keep this community vital.
One thing i noticed about Quake though, is that the frequency of releases seems to have stabilized over the past 2 years or so. So that part of our group may have some long-term life yet.
Another Thing...
#8 posted by Blitz [24.218.135.18] on 2004/08/05 00:29:26
Another thing you're forgetting Shambler, is age.
How many of the people that used to be prominent, as well as the ones now that were prominent, but just idle in #tf have had to take full time jobs or commit themselves to strenuous university projects?
Alot of the guys that started the various boards (Peej, Frib, et. al) are all older now, probably with full time jobs that demand their almost constant attention.
As for not many quality newcomers, I think Kinn who is relatively new around here (I could be wrong) posted some of the most impressive Q1SP screenshots I've ever seen, just in the last month.
No one wants to make Quake DM maps because nobody (except a few in #tf) plays Q1DM anymore.
When it comes to newer games, I think most people probably have their discussions and questions elsewhere, considering that the people most able to help them probably congregate on the game's official website, or some similar entity.
The only way to get people who have professional knowledge of newer games to hang around here is to a) promote this site on other messageboards b) promote this site inside your maps c) offer those types of people a reason to come here and post (as of right now, they have no reason, because virtually no one around here has any expertise to offer them concerning newer games)
We'll never have a bigger base of users than what we have right now, because this site is obscure, only accommodating to those who conduct themselves in a semi-respectable manner, and extremely disapproving of the mapping newbie.
That eliminates about 99.7% (rigorous computation produced that number, I assure you) of the people who want to post on gaming related messageboards.
The only people who are keenly aware of what this board has to offer are leftover from PeeJ'n'Frib/Qmap, and only because when those boards were thriving, Quake was still the go to franchise for people interested in editing.
Community?
#9 posted by ELEK [69.171.32.247] on 2004/08/05 00:31:08
It really has always been more like a hodge podge of people stuck together via common need for information which was difficult to come by when Quake/Quake2 came out due to limited amounts of reliable resources (rust, worldcrafts original site, Quake lab) the people running this shit were in the community....
I for one began frequenting Qboard and #tf because there were no other people I knew who had any interest/experience with these topics. So I think the dying off thing has more to do with the fact that there is so much documentation and support associated with the game tools these days. The communities will pop up around the best source of information, these days the developers offer that information. The mappers, modders, and coders don't have to dig so hard to find each other anymore, the community grows up around the developer.
Anyone ever think that mayhap we were just the annoying newbies. Or really on some level the folks who did custom maps for Doom and Quake were the first game mod newbies, and many of us have grown up now, or been absorbed into the game industry. Perhaps those of us left, who haven't been absorbed just kinda lurk here and dream about the old days....
Really, half the excitement way back when was centered around people doing new things, or making maps which really hadn't been seen before with the game engines we were using....I quit working with Quake soon after Nehahra, because I for me I realised, how much more is there to do with that engine/set of limitations? And honestly, I feel my peak Quake mapping days were well behind the creative curve of such greats as Frib, Peej, Pingu, Iikka, Stecki, DaMaul, ZTN, Dario Casali, the list goes on and on...and I can honestly say back then people were saying remember when, and wasn't it great when...
Perhaps moving on, or growing isn't such a bad thing really, being more open to newbies and other mappers interested in other game engines etc. would certainly bring some spark to the boards, and eliminate some of the need for the standard top 10 "fill in the blanks" threads.
yeah, or I could just be full of shit.
Map Releases
#10 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.230.101] on 2004/08/05 00:33:50
One thing i noticed about Quake though, is that the frequency of releases seems to have stabilized over the past 2 years or so.
Exactly. I mean, scampie hasn't released any normal Q1 maps in the history of Func_msgboard, so we can count on him to not release any other Q1 maps; especially since he decided to abandon SM82, which he repeatedly said would only take a short amount of time for him to finish.
Furthermore, I don't have a computer that meets Doom 3's minimum specs, and I don't know when I'll get one, so you can count on me to finish all those Q1SPs that I've had sitting dormant on my HD for the past 1-3 years.
Suddenly this quote seems apropos:
<metlslime> You may remember me from such educational films as "I've got a hamster in my pants" and "RPG better finish that map someday."
Yeah...
#11 posted by ELEK [69.171.32.247] on 2004/08/05 00:36:22
I for me I realised.....awe shit you know what I mean....
KIlles
#12 posted by ELEK [69.171.32.247] on 2004/08/05 00:38:32
errr, I never quite understood that....Killes is like the ugly zit on the ass of a hot whore.
More On Map Releases
#13 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.230.101] on 2004/08/05 00:49:17
If we actually had frequent, high-quality map releases, we would at least attract intelligent people--such as nitin and Shambler--even if those people didn't exactly map--such as nitin and Shambler.
I frequently feel like Vondur and I are the only ones who actually do mapping around here. Maybe Doom 3 will change that. Or maybe everyone will fap around in the Doom 3 editor for a week and then go back to idling. Or maybe I'm just exceptionally cynical.
Anyway, having people actually participate is a good start. It is indescribably depressing to release a map and only have five people give comments which are all three lines in length.
RPG,
#14 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.135] on 2004/08/05 01:28:29
I think the key ingrediant that is lacking or cannot be fullfilled in the Quake mapping Universe is ambition. Certainly it is good to have people who map for the love of the game, but the really high quality maps are going to be made by those with a strong desire to show what they can do and to show that they are a valuable commodity to the game industry. Those with the talent and abilaty to map at the highest levels are going to maximize their exposure by mapping for the most popular platforms, and at this time and generation Quake is firmly ghetto.
Sure there are advantages to the mod hobbiest in mapping for Quake. Coding, modeling and mapping are easily integrated, and fairly easy for one person to achieve if they wish to do so.
However, even this advantage (Quake 3 Arena -- it was a bitch to model for (thank you Mr Steed!) and a bitch to code for compared to Quake 2 and Quake) is not as noteworthy given modeling and mapping are merging together. Far from being harder, it will be easier to create content for Doom3 and Half-Life 2.
Also, show of hands, anyone ever get tired of Ogres, Vore, Scags and their ilk?
However,
#15 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.135] on 2004/08/05 01:33:09
this will all change when Fatty introduces Doom 3 style internal map scripting to his next generation Quake C code, and then the masses will flock to Quake mapping once more.
More
#16 posted by NotoriousRay [216.48.10.50] on 2004/08/05 05:46:31
Exactly. I mean, scampie hasn't released any normal Q1 maps in the history of Func_msgboard, so we can count on him to not release any other Q1 maps; especially since he decided to abandon SM82, which he repeatedly said would only take a short amount of time for him to finish.
Ehh, scampdm5? And I have received all of sm82 assets. I can't promise I'll finish it, but I promise I will try. If you'd like to help, let me know RPG.
Age
#17 posted by Tyrann [202.45.121.254] on 2004/08/05 07:17:02
I agree with Blitz, age is a big factor. I don't mean that just getting older affects your interest, but it's more to do with the other things that come along with it (intense study, jobs, etc.)
I know that things are totally different for me now that I'm working, rather than at Uni. If you don't find a good balance, work can leave you feeling too drained to do anything creative - and that's really depressing. I do feel like maybe I'm starting to get some balance back and I've started to ease myself back into things. The editor is calling me again...
Why The Doom And Gloom?
#18 posted by mwh [137.222.80.208] on 2004/08/05 07:38:31
I'm only on the periphery of this community -- I play new maps, don't have the skills (or the time/inclination to learn how to) make them -- but the last 12 months has seen Februus Depth, Adamantine Cruelty, Bastion of the Underworld and Menkalinan, all of which have to be among the best maps ever released for Q1. What's the problem? It's enough to keep me happy, for sure!
NotoriousRay
#19 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.230.101] on 2004/08/05 08:32:34
Ehh, scampdm5?
scampdm5 was released more than a year before Func opened.
And I have received all of sm82 assets. I can't promise I'll finish it, but I promise I will try. If you'd like to help, let me know RPG.
I want SM82 to get finished, and I want to help you. But I'll give you the same answer I gave scampie: I'm already working on too many maps (1 Q3CTF, 2 DMSP, 2 chainmaps, 1 Q1SP, and some mod maps). Of course, if I finish some of these, then Func will have some lovely news items to help keep people interested.
Still, if there's something I can do, you'll have as much support as I can lend.
Rpg
#20 posted by nitin [138.217.0.118] on 2004/08/05 08:50:34
thanks for the generous compliment but all I've really been doing for the past few months is spamming Func with my opinions on movies.
#21 posted by Scampie [216.220.241.97] on 2004/08/05 09:24:33
why are my releases being called into question? wtf, am I the whole of the community? quit trolling RPG and stay on the goddamn topic.
Community Starts With The Individual.
#22 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.230.101] on 2004/08/05 10:10:45
Without the work of the individual, there will be no expansion or growth.
</zen>
...
#23 posted by wrath [81.227.43.108] on 2004/08/05 10:31:40
Oh, it's this time of the year again.
Sm82
#24 posted by Zwiffle [67.39.44.89] on 2004/08/05 10:31:58
I'll help! I nagged scampie to let me help in the first place and my maps are never going to be finished anyway. That's one thing I want to do more of - community maps are something I'm really interested in for a few reasons. You don't have to keep yourself interested because you don't do the whole map, just a piece of it, you get to work with people you admire, and the community is a better place because of it.
But anyway let me help with sm82.
#25 posted by Kell [82.41.218.44] on 2004/08/05 11:33:31
I am Q1 mapping atm. Hard. Necros and I are both knee deep in workload. We are contributing in the best way we can. I do this because I cannot play D3 now and probably won't for some time. I do it because I want to contribute material that makes an impact on other peoples' imaginations. But mostly I do it because I love Quake. Which maybe rather sad an geeky and oldskool and antisocial and pseudo-nostalgic. But it's true. So there you have it.
Now leave me the fuck alone, I have verts to manipulate.
I Bow Respectfully To The Kell
#26 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.161] on 2004/08/05 12:57:54
And Quake is the game I keep coming back to the most even when the Scags spit too languidly, the Ogres grenades just plop to the side, and the fiends are easily side stepped.
Title Cannot Be Empty
#27 posted by NotoriousRay [216.48.10.50] on 2004/08/05 15:17:47
But anyway let me help with sm82.
I will, if I need it. Most likely I will. I plan on diving in later this evening after I've done some feasibility research on a few pbrsp2 ideas.
Also, in an attempt to not totally derail this thread into sm82 talk, I just wanted to say that RPG and Vondur are certainly NOT the only ones mapping anymore. Just because people dont change their nicks to <nickname>|mapping in #tf doesn't mean it isn't going on. What have you done for me lately, indeed.
Hmmm
#28 posted by Kinn [217.140.37.146] on 2004/08/05 16:27:26
Well I'm mapping my tits off at the moment trying to get Bastion II beta'd before September. After that, I'm probably gonna do a Q3DM, then check out this new Doom thingamajig, then probably back to Q1SP.
Sometimes I feel a little bit like a hamster on it's wheel, but it's always worth it.
#29 posted by underworldfan [128.195.64.98] on 2004/08/05 21:19:32
I just wanted to say that RPG and Vondur are certainly NOT the only ones mapping anymore
as a quick look at my site will confirm.
To Put It In Context
#30 posted by HeadThump [65.141.72.192] on 2004/08/05 22:38:21
In the discussion before RPG's remark there was reference to mappers who started out earlier, several years ago, and how many still hang out on #tf and the func_ board but who do not actively map. So, I think RPG was referring to that fact in his statement and not discounting newer mappers on the scene.
We're All Mapping.
#31 posted by necros [66.185.84.208] on 2004/08/05 22:39:39
it is just taking a long time. :)
#32 posted by inertia [69.133.115.101] on 2004/08/05 22:40:29
less hate!
more crates
Doom3
#33 posted by [Kona] [203.109.254.50] on 2004/08/07 06:24:17
i say support d3 (and newer related games like q4) when/if its mapping community starts to blossom. but someone already said it earlier so who cares.
my second-hand 2 cents.
Yeah, Kona Is Back!!
#34 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.229] on 2004/08/07 10:43:45
An Opinion
#35 posted by spentron [4.152.222.24] on 2004/08/07 12:02:30
The problem with adapting this community is defining what exactly this community is. If you can't do that, then it can only be defined by what it is, which strongly encourages it to never adapt.
1. "Qmap/#tf community" -- I've been reading and posting to QMap/Func since the latter days of TeamShambler yet didn't even figure out or care what #tf was until a year ago, since which I've spent maybe an hour and a half on it.
At times this difference between my perspective and most oldtimers here has become obvious, despite no requirement to participate in both.
2. Quakeworld/multiplayer -- also seems strong in the roots of this community, yet more recently the emphasis has been more on SP. This is natural for an older game of course, since without new maps the SP aspect of a game becomes history.
3. Quake SP -- with those complexities out of the way I'll assume *just for a moment* everyone loves Quake SP. Are there identifyable qualities of Quake SP that can be adapted to an expansion into other games? Or is this again defined by what it has been?
My own experience says no, it's not adaptable. Of course this is not a perfect experiment because this is based on my maps which are certainly not beyond criticism. But, there is an air of resistance. I just deleted most of this paragraph because I'm not trying to start an argument here as to if this is a good example. I think it's a real and actual issue though. In fact, at least one of my maps was never given ANY criticism truly informed by learning to play and completing it; to date only one person has verified proper completion of it and they sang a completely different tune.
The fact is, I'm the same way. It's a busy world and you have to filter somewhere. Still, if someone came here with a map for another game I own and promised wilder play and less BS I'd probably check it out. For example I tried Pax Imperia for Q2, despite Q2 being far from my favorite FPS. It was pretty good, but also an example of another problem: it wasn't good enough that it won't take even bigger promises to get me to try another Q2 addon.
With regards to criticism, there's also another split: players vs. mappers. Players care about results while mappers get hung up on every technical flaw. That is, there's a split if any of the player types are left here. How much of this technical criticism is pure and how much of it is this "air of resistance" I can't say except I doubt it's 100% pure.
I hope this doesn't read like it's all about me, maybe 5 years as a sort of participating outsider yields some useful perspective. Maybe most in this community assumes everyone knows and agrees what it is, if that's true here's one vote to the contrary, I'm still figuring it out.
Hi...
#36 posted by distrans [203.208.80.248] on 2004/08/08 02:37:28
Quake, whether by design or complete fluke Id got it right. The game itself opened up the possibility of a long lived forum (or series of forums) with addons, like this one. It will go on for some time yet.
Now...if Id has got it right again (or at least closer than some of the bollox released in the last five years) with Doom3, then I hope that game finds a home herein. Why? Well when I get around to mapping for D3 (and Q4) I want to be able to count on valuable assistance, encouragement and criticism. The same sort of thing I've accepted in the face of my Quake ventures. Harsh sometimes, sometimes kind but in general honest, informed, useful and most of all well rounded. I'll go somewhere else if I desire myopic candy coated BS.
...and if D3 ends up blowing, we can always hold out for Q4.
Hmm...
#37 posted by metlslime [64.124.188.211] on 2004/08/08 03:52:35
I think id actually got it right with Quake 3 -- just like Quake, the lack of any unified artistic theme or setting allowed for lots of creativity in the user community. Quake 2 is an example of pretty much everyone making a Stroggos map becuase the theme was focused.
The Problem With Q3 Though
#38 posted by cyBeAr [213.65.179.30] on 2004/08/08 08:12:47
is that it is mp only.
Except
#39 posted by spentron [4.152.222.81] on 2004/08/08 09:13:20
To most of the world, Q2 is a far superior SP game to Quake, often considered the worst SP, "boring" etc... So there Quake tends to be one item of agreement here, at least that: it's good. But, people always seem to need something to bash on to justify what they like, for some Quake seems an easy target. Here, criticism may be well rounded -- if the game is Quake or maybe another id game. It can not be relied upon to be so fair regarding other games.
The consensus here regarding SPQ is unique. So it follows that our take on other games may also be different than almost anywhere else ... if we can get around to considering them at all.
The issue of theme in some games is easily dealt with by ignoring it (although some themes cause too much limitation of game elements). However, the result will probably not be well accepted in the game's "home" community. So where? I realize this place isn't that big and can't cover everything, but some variants need a home more than others. For example with my Unreal stuff, I was told by Unrealers maybe Quake players will like it, maybe I should have made their dislike clearer ;) .
I lke Q3 too, but the forces that lead to MP-only games have also tended to split the action away from SP games, which many play more to see pretty pictures and the story thing than for serious action. There has been some exceptions, but more specialized, e.g. Serious Sam is mostly about larger scale combat and the monsters aren't near as good as Quake's for little tricky cramped stuff.
I'm tending to worry about all of this less though. The important part is having some good FPS to rock on when I want it. The best stuff is limited but there's still more good-enough than I can possibly consume.
Yeah
#40 posted by Kinn [81.7.59.78] on 2004/08/08 10:35:28
I can understand why people would consider Q2SP to be superior to Q1SP, but if I recall correctly, there was a lot of negativity towards Q1's single player game even when it was newly released, as if people were expecting it to be a polygonal version of Doom and didn't understand why they couldn't mow down a room full of 50 Death Knights on their 486 DX2's. Never mind the fact that the Quake engine was light years ahead of anything at the time, all a lot of people wanted back then was another Doom-style slaughterfest.
I Should Add
#41 posted by Kinn [81.7.59.78] on 2004/08/08 10:41:33
Far from becoming stale, Quake actually improves with age, thanks to better compile tools, and faster computers. We can now make huge levels with massive Doom-style combat, that are completely unlike anything that existed back in '97. When people turn their nose up at you for playing/mapping for Quake, well, they're just being ignorant.
#42 posted by underworldfan [128.195.64.98] on 2004/08/08 16:21:02
To most of the world, Q2 is a far superior SP game to Quake, often considered the worst SP, "boring" etc
surprised to see yu indulging in such generalizations spentron, normally your intelligence means your arguments are better than this!
and not only is it an over-generalization, im not even sure your correct. I always got the impression q1sp was more popular than q2sp with the "unwashed masses".
Kinn, I mostly agree with your above 2 posts.
This Site Shows Q1's Vital Signs
#43 posted by Scragbait [65.92.65.83] on 2004/08/08 17:45:39
It is the place to go to reaffirm that there is still life in the SPQ1 scene even if the maps aren't coming out steady.
I've been working on a couple maps as Distrans and aGuire can confirm and if the scene died, so would my motivation to finish my work. Yes, you should map for yourself - but sharing is fun and this forum can be counted on for honest feedback.
I keep coming back to Q1 because 1) The user maps are excellent and the range of world themes is endless. 2) Quake doesn't frustrate the hell out of me - I play to relax and have fun and some newer games I find too difficult or too scripted. Also, I like looking for secrets and most newer games don't have such secondary goals. 3) I don't get tired of ogres, scrags, vores, shams etc. 4) I'm hopelessly nostalgic and I can't let go of the 1st time I downloaded QTest and saw a world on it's way that would suck me in for years to come.
I hope it lingers on - slow is okay, just don't die.
I Can Say That
#44 posted by underworldfan [128.195.64.98] on 2004/08/08 22:16:27
as long as q1sp maps are being made, i intend to have them reviewed at my site. =)
#45 posted by necros [66.185.84.80] on 2004/08/08 23:15:06
mmm, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :)
RE: #42
#46 posted by spentron [4.153.59.236] on 2004/08/09 01:11:13
Maybe it just seems like more people like Q2 if you far prefer the first. However, of people just straight out calling a game "boring" or looking for an example of what they don't like in SP FPS, original Quake may be #1. Q2 is almost never disliked as intensly.
Incidently I do find as a MP game, Q2 works far better through a network than QW and therefore wins. Maybe someone could do something about that, even original Unreal now runs perfectly on dialup (except with all the downloading media you may never get to the game).
#47 posted by Kell [82.41.218.44] on 2004/08/09 14:57:30
mmm, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :)
No, that's just the bees you ate.
Replies...
#48 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/08/09 16:59:14
BTW metslime if I accidentally hit the "Reset" button that's 0.05 mm away from the "Submit" button and lose this post, I will print out the entire archive of Func_Msgboard, fly to America, find you, stick the rolled up printout up your arse, and set fire to it.
Anyway...
Ummm actually I can't be arsed to reply to everything. Respect to everyone showing support though.
There's a few issues I can touch on...
Productivity
It's nice if people can be productive, but I don't think people should be forced or be expected to be productive just to keep things going. I want you guys to map as I like the maps but one has to respect that you do it for your own pleasure. There should be encouragement without pressure.
defining what exactly this community is
This is a good question to raise. And I can think of a pretty good definition:
A smaller, closer, mapping/gaming community, where the focus is on quality, where new participants are welcomed but encouraged to live up to those standards, where there is less bullshit and more informed opinions, where the interaction incorporates both discussion and social chat associated with smaller communities, where old-skool games are welcomed and encouraged, where individual voices will not get lost in a sea of noise.
In short, it's strength lies in intimacy, intelligence, open-mindedness and quality.
Errr that will do for the moment.
Just keep up the enthusiasm, interaction, and good maps when you feel like them.
Shambler..
#49 posted by metlslime [64.124.188.211] on 2004/08/09 18:26:29
So i should move the button to the side a little bit?
Hmm
#50 posted by nonentity [213.208.100.240] on 2004/08/09 19:10:11
Submit Here Reset Here
V V
(I hope this works)
Hmm
#51 posted by nonentity [213.208.100.240] on 2004/08/09 19:10:39
Honestly,
#52 posted by metlslime [64.124.188.211] on 2004/08/09 20:42:55
I could probably just get rid of the reset button. It's a pretty standard web thing, but i'm not sure how useful it really is on func, since the form is so simple and resetting it is really just clearing it.
Replace
#53 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.24] on 2004/08/09 20:47:56
[submit] [reset]
with
[submit] [hummer]
and everyone will be happy.
.
#54 posted by necros [66.185.84.80] on 2004/08/09 21:07:36
i've never used the reset button. how hard is is to do ctrl+a, del anyway?
Hmm
#55 posted by nonentity [213.208.100.240] on 2004/08/09 21:11:28
Kill the button!
(waving flaming pitchfork in the air, carrying wooden stake/holy water, etc)
Never Used The Reset Button
#56 posted by Mr Fribbles [202.161.117.131] on 2004/08/09 22:10:01
As necros says, ctrl+a, del does the job, and its faster than moving the mouse down to the reset button! There's probably more people who have pressed the reset button by mistake than people who have used it intentionally (sounds like Shambler does it accidentally a lot : )
Make The 'Reset' Button Into The 'Bees' Button
#57 posted by Blitz [24.218.135.18] on 2004/08/09 22:44:45
YES
#58 posted by Scampie [66.231.198.188] on 2004/08/09 23:57:05
Bees button automatically fills your post with Bee icons that metlslime will be adding shortly.
http://scampie.spawnpoint.org/moo/...
LMAO!
#59 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/08/10 04:00:12
Yeah replace it with a Bees button, obviously not replacing the text with bee icons, but at least adding one bee to the post...
Yes Please Add The Bees Icon Metlslime
#60 posted by Kinn [81.7.53.204] on 2004/08/10 04:23:38
Deep down, I know you know it's the right thing to do.
Shambler
#61 posted by JPL [192.91.75.29] on 2004/08/10 04:47:09
I've just read the subject of this thread, and I fully agree with you...
I think our community of mapper is like endangered species: less mappers with an "old game" (Quake).. So we have to support each others, just to save us from "extinction", and keep alive...
There are pro mappers and rookies here, and everybody have to learn from each other... Like you said, we have to stay "open" to other mappers, other ideas, other games as well, in order to improve ourself... you're right...
Shambler should not be banned from creating threads now ;-)
From The Last Posts
#62 posted by cyBeAr [213.65.179.30] on 2004/08/10 09:48:36
I think it's pretty obvious that what this "community" needs to be alive and happy is more bees.
Bees
#63 posted by Kinn [81.7.61.153] on 2004/08/10 12:10:08
Perhaps "func_msgboard" needs to become "The Hive".
That Just Leaves The Question Of...
#64 posted by Kell [82.41.218.44] on 2004/08/10 12:17:42
who will be queen?
<- White Queen Bee
#65 posted by Scampie [216.220.241.97] on 2004/08/10 12:34:24
Hello boys!
Now get the fuck back to work, maps... er... hives don't build themsealves!
Also
#66 posted by Kinn [81.7.61.153] on 2004/08/10 12:41:01
metlslime should make it so that every time you visit func_msgboard, it plays this wav:
http://quoi.freeservers.com/post_s...
Lol
#67 posted by distrans [203.32.39.126] on 2004/08/10 21:16:42
Hello boys!
...Campie not Scampie
Metl...
#68 posted by MisYu [217.98.20.20] on 2004/08/11 00:23:37
...or you can use javascript's confirm to reset.
RIGHT.
#69 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/08/23 04:58:13
The one thing we can do a lot better here, something we can all do and it's pretty damn easy:
GIVE MORE FEEDBACK.
On people's maps, screenshots, posts, whatever. It takes a couple of minutes to look at some screenies, have a think, and post some views, and only several minutes to download a map, have a run around, and get an idea of something useful to say about it. Really very easy and it doesn't have to be something that you'd actually play, you can still give some useful feedback.
Come on people let's have a bit more of this - THIS will encourage mappers more and improve the community, pretty much everyone likes feedback.
Shambler
#70 posted by JPL [192.91.75.30] on 2004/08/23 05:50:56
I agree with you, even if we are not able to play a game, feedback about screenshots (architecture, lightning, texture use, etc...) is welcomed for any mapper I suppose... even if it's really difficult to please evrybody...
As well for "mapping help", even if some questions seems to be "basic", or stupid, or really without any interest for pros who know the answer, please help us !!! It's really important to have help when you are stucked... just to go forward, or have new idea..
Thanx...
PS: and now let's go to answer my last question in Mapping Help permanent thread ... quickly.... ;-)
AGAIN.
#71 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/09/16 05:50:37
Two more fairly easy things we can do:
1. POST MORE DAMN NEWS.
I.e. Whatever interesting mapping/gaming items you find, particularly releases or important articles and stuff, don't just post them in GA, but post them as news. It takes only a few seconds (you can spare that time, right??) just to click on the submit news and submit it. This gives these items space to be looked at, will catch more people's attention and have a place for feedback and debate. Easy and effective.
2. LINK PEOPLE TO THIS SITE.
Particularly from other mapping sites - try to form links with them and encourage people to visit here for more indepth debate and a useful and experienced beta-testing / map feedback resource. You could put links in your Map Centre / Doom3world / whatever signatures, like:
Func_msgboard - mapping community for the connoisseur
or similar. Again, very easy and can spread the word and keep func_ relevant and happening in the broader mapping scene.
Shambler
#72 posted by JPL [192.91.75.30] on 2004/09/16 06:04:59
One more think we can do:
NOT saying to people the are "WEIRDO" when they don't like playing in cooperative mode !!!!!
;))
"Connoisseur"?
#73 posted by Maj [217.205.117.52] on 2004/09/16 10:51:14
Why not just "elitist"?
Seriously, something like that is just going to attract snobs and turn decent people off.
#74 posted by Kell [82.41.8.22] on 2004/09/16 10:53:11
LOL!! >.<
Ye gods, the needle on my ironometer just broke.
Btw
#75 posted by Scampie [216.220.241.97] on 2004/09/16 13:01:25
you're all faggots
But We Are Elitists
#76 posted by Kinn [217.43.151.53] on 2004/09/16 13:08:39
/ducks
New Ppl Do Drop In Occasionally
#77 posted by BlackDog [202.89.167.118] on 2004/09/16 15:24:42
*looks around*
Looks alright to me.
Yes,
#78 posted by HeadThump [4.136.30.74] on 2004/09/16 18:01:27
but is it a Simpson's Comicbook Guy elitism?
#79 posted by Zwiffle [69.210.84.168] on 2004/09/16 22:26:47
Worst. Thread. Ever.
Bleh
#80 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/09/17 03:15:11
Maj - okay, whatever. Just a phrase I came up with, it's not about the specifics but the general idea.
Zwiffle - I hate you.
Cream Of Wheat Strengthens The Bones
#81 posted by Zwiffle [69.210.84.168] on 2004/09/17 09:37:26
Shambler, I'm sure this isn't the actual worst thread ever. I do agree we should try a little harder to keep interest in the site, but I don't think we should try to attract more people.
I'm also sure someone may have posted this, but more people doesn't necessarily mean better. Most of the time, I'd prefer a smaller community to a much larger one anyway. (Bigger classrooms < Smaller classrooms) (I know the logic of a bigger classrooms less than smaller classrooms is stupid, so what.)
There's also a reason I prefer the community as it is: People here actually care about Quake. Sure, we could invite people looking to map for Doom3, but if they don't give a shit about Quake they can fuckoff. I joined Func because this was the only place that still supported Quake that I could find. It's unique. No other site has a community of such ... um... "interesting" people, and I'd hate to water it down with riftraft from doom3world. (No offense to them.)
But, keeping interest in the site for those who already browse these boards is a must, of course. That's one reason why I've been posting as much as I can lately. If I had interesting news, I'd post it, but until I release another map I'll have to stick to the boards.
I would, of course, love more special event types dealies. More chainmaps, more turtlemaps, more "Arcane Wizard" type projects. Working *with* the people in the community seems to me like it would keep interest. I understand people don't have the time for these, but every once in a while would be nice.
Zwiffle.
#82 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/09/17 10:06:02
You ARE a new person.
#83 posted by Scampie [216.220.241.97] on 2004/09/17 10:20:08
More chainmaps, more turtlemaps,
You run speedmapping now, organize the events if you want them to happen rather than sit around a bitch you want more to happen.
Hmm
#84 posted by Zwiffle [69.210.84.168] on 2004/09/17 13:54:55
Shambler: I miss your point.
Scampiebler: I would, but no one shows up for speedmapping as it is. After you quit, I think I got one map from someone who's not me. Also, at the current time, there is a chainmap that has yet to be completed. Arcane Wizard also seems to be making good progress. I would rather spread out community projects then lump them all together at one time. And besides, whenever I asked anyone if they wanted to chain map with me no one ever replied with a 'Yes', if they replied at all.
More Feedback.
#85 posted by Jaj [62.83.157.176] on 2004/09/17 17:32:44
That's right, it's needed ... almost everybody is getting more lazy i guess, and i am the laziest.
Not That I Speak For Smabler
#86 posted by VoreLord [203.51.197.246] on 2004/09/17 18:07:03
But,
Shambler: I miss your point.
I think the point maybe something along the lines of, You ARE a new person, therefore if your suggestion, but I don't think we should try to attract more people were in vogue, then maybe you yourself wouldn't be here.

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