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Posted by Baker [67.149.145.114] on 2006/04/04 03:15:57

I want to present for discussion some things that I have discussed with others and even here for possible consideration now or in the future.
These are new thoughts based on problems that have surfaced, challenges and new ideas.
1. Maps using solely shareware Quake monsters plus any others developed in expansion packs.
Reason: Right now, most maps can only be used by users of registered Quake. Registered Quake at the moment cannot be purchased new anywhere on the planet. (The ID store is being revamped, could be months).
The shareware monsters:
Zombies
Fiends
Shamblers
Grunts
Ogres
Knights (Swords only kind)
Scrags
Registered monsters:
Enforcers
Fish
Hell Knights
Vores
Spawns
Shub
This way at least a pool of custom maps could legally be tried by someone who has shareware Quake for free.
Additional monsters like the Quoth characters or the FC1 or Lunaran badguys could be used as well.
The reason I bring this up is that there is a package called FreeQuake which is a legal distribution of the shareware install plus some more modern engines.
http://freequake.quakeone.com
This project was started over 1 year ago, back when the whole QuakeOne team was rather oblivious to single player.
Beginning in May there will be a major push of the package as we will have more compatible servers online.
It would be nice to have some custom maps that do not use pak1 monsters so downloaders could experience the newer aspect of single player as well, and if so, we'd include engines more geared to single player in the install list.
2. Gateway Teleporter Maps
Screenshot of the idea.
http://www.quakeone.com/forums/sho...
3. All-Time Best Map Packs
This doesn't really require anything special since many of the license agreements would permit it. Although I'm still surprised there isn't one. Would be really cool if combined with #2.
I have 4 other categories of thought, one was the effortless sampling of single player maps via a Quakeworld coop server.
The other 3 ideas, there isn't much sense talking about them because they require a huge amount of work.
Last, but not least, are their any mappers willing to volunteer some of their maps for a pilot project to create a small self-installing package of no more than 10 custom single player maps? This will be promoted at QuakeOne.com and given mention at some other sites to introduce multiplayer types to single player.
We only want to include maps where we have the backing of the author to do so, because we view that as the respectful and considerate way to do things, even in cases where the readme.txt permits or encourages redistribution without asking. In our view, you cannot be part of a community without treating others with respect and requesting dialogue.

No Way
#1 posted by Ankh [212.121.135.226] on 2006/04/04 04:09:09
Vores and Spawns are sooo coool
#2 posted by necros [142.150.4.58] on 2006/04/04 06:53:13
i think it's a nice idea of you guys, but i have to say, i don't think it would work as you'd miss out on a lot of gameplay without enforcers, hknights and vores...
esp enforcers w/rt base maps... enforcers make up about 33 to 50% of a base map's monster count. :S
Necros
#3 posted by Baker [67.149.145.114] on 2006/04/04 07:09:16
I know. Vores and Hell Knights are my favorites.
Hell Knights could be replaced by a Quoth class, Vores by Droles?!?
I and others have been watching this game fade away for no particularly good reasons. Only the ID site sells Quake new and the store has been down for 7 days and last time it was down, it was down for about a year.
Some of us feel if Quake could be available legally and expose news players to a cross section of what it has to offer, that this would be reversed.
There are several sites in Quake that have turned to illegally distributing Quake to continue their communities; our site is not one that will be taking that route.
In fact, there was a big debate over those illegal distributions on our site very recently.
It's worth reading that to see the feelings and perspectives. Some feel that illegally downloading Quake is ok and justified, others do not and some of us are against it but have express frustration with the current unavailability of Quake.
This is a quality read, at our forum we don't interfere with debate (much like this one:
http://www.quakeone.com/forums/sho...
Hmmm...
#4 posted by nico [213.178.94.4] on 2006/04/04 08:11:32
i could live without fish, spawn and shub... but quake without helknights? vores?
and enforcers, what necros said. and not only old-school base maps use enforcers. sm28, could ...
also, the best maps for quake newbs to play are the original ones from id. the original episodes. those are so good (as well as stuff like beyond belief). people should not miss them, they are not optional, they are part of quake. integral to this work of art. the quake experience is not complete without them.
the best solution is for people just to get pak1.pak, I think you can still buy quake on ebay... and flea markets... steal it from your older sister... beam it down... assimilate it... ask a friend who has the CD for a copy ...
that&#180;s the cold hard truth. we are in a situation where it is not so easy to get pak1.pak. I would prefer if I could buy the CD at the local media markt for 5 euros. I&#180;d buy 5!!! sadly, that isn&#180;t the case. and any more than 7,50 is not a realistic price. and not everybody has a credit card. so much for online shops.
but anything based on shareware quake is less than half the deal. the monsters, the three episodes, the dm maps are integral.
so what is the new age? players using shareware quake? are you kidding? would you want a bicycle with one wheel? and new wheels unavailable? imagine all cyclists using that, mounting new gadgets onto it, and pretending it was normal. no. the truth is, you find some buddies who have a source for wheels. whatever that may be. such is life.
but sure, your idea #1 has at least something going for it. I think you should present it more as a challenge to mappers, "using only shareware content". Nice theme for a speedmapping session. That way, it could work.
idea #2 (hub map): it&#180;s been done before, check out the original 100 brush contest pack. but it&#180;s just sooo easy and quake loads maps so fast, to enter "map xxx" in the console, look around and say "oh, this was this". Joequake even has a map menu. And hint, hint: There is a "teleporter hub" map in the standard quake, without screenshots OK, but the id maps are so short that it&#180;s enough to link to the first map of every episode.
Better idea: Take screenshots of all maps, and make a list on a website using the shots, full name and short description. much easier than mapping.
idea #3: best map packs are problematic, because everyone will have different "best maps". it would be unfair. I&#180;d really just link to underworldfan&#180;s review site and the quaddicted archive. and celephais.net.
good luck man.
Nico, Actually The Thing Is ...
#5 posted by Baker [67.149.145.114] on 2006/04/04 09:12:28
... most players want Quake for multiplayer.
And the new servers will be running 100% custom DM maps. The play is identical to the registered version. All the multiplayer components are in pak0.pak.
It's going to be slamdunk from that aspect, because as a legal set of downloads, it can be talked about freely, etc. The new engines like JoeQuake/Qrack offer the eye candy (<- hate that word) that would offer it appeal.
Most of the multiplayer types don't care about single player, but that might be different if it were available in combination with the main download.
The stereotype of Quake is the standard old maps.
Blah
#6 posted by bear [202.47.247.116] on 2006/04/04 09:25:52
I'm sure yuo can find it somewhere if you really want to buy it even if you might have to buy it bundled with q2 and q3, soon there will probably q1-q4 packs...
BAH...
#7 posted by generic [69.244.208.113] on 2006/04/04 09:40:18
New age mapping! I was half expecting some sort of innovative hardware-software combo using an electronic harp to make Quake maps.
Too bad, really >:(
;-)
#8 posted by Baker [67.149.145.114] on 2006/04/04 09:57:42
Sorry there, chief!
Enforcers
#9 posted by Lardarse [82.32.58.225] on 2006/04/04 10:45:35
Sadly, I have to agree with the discussion. Although I think that 33-50% is more like 50-60%, and on some maps (like your favourite...) it's closer to 80%.
I think that eBay is the best thing to happen to the new generation of Quake lovers... I managed to get 2 copies there (the 2nd copy came with both mission packs) fairly cheaply...
Lardarse
#10 posted by Baker [67.149.145.114] on 2006/04/04 11:09:35
I agree. Really enforcers, vores and hell knights are 3 of the most fun bad guys in Quake. And pretty essential to most types of maps.
Although Trinca's map doesn't seem to use many of them.
I think I have another idea that will work, I am going to run a program against a mass number of maps and see what maps have the LEAST or NONE of these characters.
Then I'll take a look at the results.
There HAVE to be some existing maps that do not use many or any of these monsters.
Granted, it will be few. Also, I'm going to check with some QuakeC gurus about an entity translation progs.dat or maybe investigating the use of OpenQuartz.
My goal is just for there to be a few quality maps compatible someway, somehow with shareware to give those users a taste of some good single player experience.
Something Necros said gave me the idea, so this thread wasn't a loss ;)
Something good DID come from it.
Hellknights And Vores
#11 posted by Blitz [24.218.85.216] on 2006/04/04 11:19:46
Hellknights and Vores are essential to ramping up the difficulty level ever so gradually in your map. You're doing away with a vital aspect of the level design balance by restricting the mapper from using them.
Especially vores because you probably have to do the most "thinking" when it comes to an encounter in a fairly small space with a vore.
#12 posted by Asaki [71.115.135.112] on 2006/04/04 11:23:30
If you've found a way to get shareware Quake to run with custom maps and progs.dat, then just create a mod that replaces Enforcers with Grunts, Death Knights with Knights, Vores with...uh...Fiends? Etc. etc. and distribute that to swQuakers. Easiest thing in the world.
#13 posted by nico [213.178.93.152] on 2006/04/04 13:41:30
well Baker, if you are targetting Free Quake at multiplayer users, then why were you asking about SP maps using only shareware content?
*scratches head*
Asaki / Nico
#14 posted by Baker [67.149.145.114] on 2006/04/04 20:45:41
Asaki ... I'm investigating that. Good replacement suggestions, btw.
Nico ... please read all of my recent posts in their entirety ... Thanks in advance!
How Much
#15 posted by inertia [24.164.73.173] on 2006/04/04 22:54:31
is ID charging for rights to q1 content?
Inertia
#16 posted by Baker [67.149.145.114] on 2006/04/04 23:43:50
I've thought about starting an effort to petition ID about the pak1.pak problem, maybe you've already seen my comments on other boards about that?
Do you think that is something that would be a worthwhile effort?
See, the thing is, if ID would do special limited licensing of pak1.pak that was wide enough that sp-developers/multiplayer could continue ...
But I don't see ID software making any large bucks out of licensing Quake 1? Would they care about $1000 to $5000?
I dunno ... the workarounds all suck.
Hellknights And Vores Suck Mostly
#17 posted by bambuz [193.167.7.27] on 2006/04/05 06:40:03
HKs have so much health and for some reason mappers have decided you always encounter them with the supershotgun and it's then shoot-back up-shoot-back up ... yawn. They have so much health it's stupid.
And vores are generally placed so that you pop your head out from behind a corner, shoot some nails or rockets or grenades, go back, wait for the ball to explode on a wall, come out again... and repeat and repeat.
These monsters tend to be better when placed on areas where you have to constantly move and use your brain to avoid their attacks, but it is rarely done so even by the most distinguished mappers. ?!
Enforcers, on the other hand, are generally fun. :) They don't have too much hitpoints so it doesn't become boring, they give some ammo and you can somewhat dodge their projectiles, but they're so fast that it ain't easy. They tend to shoot their own a lot too. :P
If I'd recommend free things, I'd say develop something from Quoth. It's got top-notch monsters and textures, both visually and gameplaywise. I talked about this way back but everybody was like "fuck you".
Really
#18 posted by bambuz [193.167.7.27] on 2006/04/05 06:41:57
how much more do you need than a player model, some weapon and armor models, and of course new sounds.
Bambuz
#19 posted by starbuck [82.40.164.223] on 2006/04/05 10:40:12
i hope didn't tell you to go fuck yourself last time, as that's a really good idea. Take something like Quoth, and expand it to something that can be downloaded stand-alone.
If it was good enough it could give a real boost to the SP Quake community.
I'd definitely be up for helping out in a project like this in some way, be it mapping or graphics stuff.
We need to know if this is feasible though. How much needs to be redone? Is there much coding involved? What project should be worked on? I agree Quoth is a good one. The Quoth boys would have to give the thumbs up, of course.
Well worth thinking about...
Monster Translator
#20 posted by Baker [67.149.145.114] on 2006/04/06 00:08:52
I think the Quoth characters would make an excellent basis for replacement characters in monster translator code.
I'll probably revisit this as things progress.
A monster translator progs.dat could make any standalone map feasible.
But ... a great deal of work would have to be done :(
Bambuz
#21 posted by Baker [67.149.145.114] on 2006/04/06 00:12:16
"I talked about this way back but everybody was like "fuck you".
HEhe, it does seem like these sorts of things take a tremendous amount of "activation energy".
I quit playing Quake in early 2004 and figured it would not be around for much longer.
When I returned, ironically some seeds I had planted had grown in big, strong oak trees.
Patience is a virtue ;)
#22 posted by necros [142.150.4.58] on 2006/04/06 06:44:31
These monsters tend to be better when placed on areas where you have to constantly move and use your brain to avoid their attacks, but it is rarely done so even by the most distinguished mappers. ?!
iirc, the last map vondur made (i think it was vondur?) had a nice end combat with some vores in an area with little cover. that was quite fun :)
I Disrespect Vores...
#23 posted by Baker [67.149.145.114] on 2006/04/06 07:25:52
... I walk right up to them, point blank, and let them share the splash damage of their own attacks.
Amen, Brother Baker, Amen.
#24 posted by HeadThump [65.140.52.171] on 2006/04/06 14:35:46
I walk right up to them, point blank, and let them share the splash damage of their own attacks.
Baker
#25 posted by nitin [138.217.1.73] on 2006/04/07 03:05:42
if there was a noir version quake ever, that would have to be part of the voiceover.
Haha
#26 posted by starbuck [82.40.164.223] on 2006/04/07 04:39:26
Quake Noir, now there's a movie I'd go to see.
Vore:free To A Good Home
#27 posted by Preach [86.129.226.13] on 2006/04/08 14:41:45
If you change your mind about the vore and decide you want one in the pack, then you might want to take a look at this one.
http://www.btinternet.com/~chapter...
It's essentially a remake of the original vore at a slightly higher polycount, designed to look like the original - as opposed to some of the existing openquake models. It has seen the light of day on this forum on a previous occasion, but on seeing this topic I had another look at it, redid all the animations and tweaked the skin/mesh in a few places. So take a look, feedback welcomed.
I suppose there's still a kind of copyright issue with this model if id were fussy. Although it was constructed from scratch, it's very obviously derived from the design of the original. Of course, if it's gonna be functional without code changes the animation has to be pretty similar, but I guess it doesn't excuse the rest of the model. Anyhow, the thread reminded me I never did anything with the model, so here it is.
#28 posted by vb [211.30.158.51] on 2006/04/09 02:10:16
Baker loves fat women
Preach
#29 posted by necros [70.31.50.57] on 2006/04/09 10:07:33
not bad, actually.
the walk animation looks pretty good as does pain, but there's something about the death anim that looks a little stiff... i'm not sure though, and i can't put my finger on it. :\
also, i'd say the arms are a little too beefy, and i'd just scale those down a bit.
but yeah, a pretty good remake of the original. :)
but yeah, definatly see what you're saying... if i didn't look closely, i might not notice the difference. :x

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