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Posted by JPL [212.96.79.177] on 2004/11/20 12:43:34

Hello guys,
I'm back with a brand new Quake Single Player base-based map called CMC (CMC for "Cheyenne Mountain Complex").
I would like to specially thank aguirRe, who helped me to reduce vis running time from 10 hours to less than 2 hours, and as well for his global feedback about the map design: you rock man !!
Download on http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.f...
So now go play it, enjoy or hate it, as you want... All feedback and comments are welcomed...

Hmmmm Yes.
#1 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/11/20 15:10:39
BTW, the first time you're in the gold gate room and press the 3rd switch, the game crashes on Hard skill - no free edicts. Doh.
Other than that, this map grew on me overall. The starting gameplay is horrible, really boring. Once you get past the main lift, it's a lot more fun. Even so, it's pretty hard and some bits could be frustrating, generally I tended to run around like a loon rather than play properly. I like the way the layout comes together later on too, it all starts to make sense. However the design, like the gameplay, is a mixed bag. Some of it is good, like some designs in the larger rooms, and the curvy corridors. The occasional bit is great - the mad arches in the power room. Conversely, quite a lot of it is bland, and despite the layout it still feels like a collection of vaguely impressive rooms linked by distinctly unimpressive corridors.
Having said that, I think you could do very well with your mapping - the ideas are there, the talent is there, some good gameplay is there, and the build quality is there. You just need to refine it and increase the coherence, and I think some serious beta testing would help too.
A Bug, A Bug, .......... Wheres The Bug?
#2 posted by VoreLord [144.131.202.165] on 2004/11/20 23:07:48
In the readme
Then load the map by typing "map hellchepsout".
Not Title
#3 posted by nitin [138.217.2.9] on 2004/11/21 00:24:12
I see the same mistakes as your first map, JPL. Incoherent designs, inconsistent designs, inconsistent lighting. Like Shambler said, some areas looked really good, others were very bland. Similarly, some areas were lit well others seemed fullbright. Also, overall theme was not implemented well, the designs didnt seem to fit together as a whole.
Gameplay wise, I really didnt like it at all. I was playing this like a DM game rather an sp game, which is fine for an area or two but this whole map seemed like that.
Despite all of that, I have to agree with Shambler's conclusion. You have the talent, but it just needs to be put to a more coherent and refined approach.
ERRATA !!!
#4 posted by JPL [212.96.75.162] on 2004/11/21 05:01:14
Shambler/nitin: Thousands apologizes, aguirRe found this big issue as well on the map in Hard skill (I see a mail from him this morning...), so please guys, don't try it or your engine will unfortunatly crash (fitzquake does...). I will try to update the map to avoid this fucking error ASAP... Otherwize even if you seemed to be bored by the map, I'm glad to hear you think I have some kind of "talent" for maps... I take this as a compliment... Thanks...
VoreLord: Sorry, It comes from a copy paste... I will correct it later, with the hard skill error update... ;)
Jpl
#5 posted by VoreLord [144.131.202.246] on 2004/11/21 05:03:11
While I think that Shambler and Nitin both have valid points, you certainly have gone forward from your first release, so your heading in the right direction. I had fun playing the map. Thanks, and keep going.
Jpl
#6 posted by nitin [138.217.2.9] on 2004/11/21 05:08:19
I played on normal and had no crashes.
JP.....
#7 posted by the silent [84.222.194.160] on 2004/11/21 07:03:58
...Nice piece of work indeeed! My two cents: I found the overall layout of the map very nice, with good backtracking and generally good brushwork (ideas are here, for sure!), a nice feeling of interactivity (as far as Quake allows). I agree with Shamb about the mgameplay flow that's quite unbalanced and rather easy overall. I only played normal so far to avoid crashes addressed in the previous posts and I gotta say that 2 quads near the end would deserve an harder fight to be had... I found all secrets, little more variety here wouldn't hurt... Texturing left me an odd feeling... maybe a different, maybe darker, light placement would have worked better with them...
Anyway.... an above average map for sure and a great way to start a Sunday morning, thanks. Keep them coming.
...P.S.
#8 posted by the silent [84.222.194.160] on 2004/11/21 07:05:12
...waiting for the fixed version for Hard 'n Nightmare....
Mixed Bag Here
#9 posted by aguirRe [213.101.71.220] on 2004/11/21 10:11:40
Architecture at first glance seems to be a lot reminiscent of many old Q1 base maps, but when looking closer, there are in fact a lot of curves and unusual designs that are interesting. Texturing is also similar, a mix between the old idbase and other more HL inspired themes.
Lighting is IMO the main problem; all the flashing and either underlit or overlit rooms make the visuals flat and this also hides the more interesting designs. I'm not a fan of coloured lighting, but it's actually applied rather cautiously here and definitely better than the earlier Hellchepsout.
Gameplay is mainly good, although the initial rooms are pretty tough in an unfair way, the grunts and enforcers from all directions really wear down health quickly. Ammo/weapon/health balance is overall good on Normal; no axing here. Maybe a bit more shells and less rockets. Gameflow is sometimes a bit confusing but not a big issue.
Although I liked Hellchepsout better for its theme, it's good to see that you're trying out different things. Keep it up!
I Agree With AguiRe
#10 posted by mwh [81.16.227.227] on 2004/11/21 11:02:51
I really liked the overall 'shape' of the map, at first I thought it was going to be a 'go get key, head back, go through door, repeat' kinda slog but it wasn't and the way it which is wasn't was pretty neat.
Lighting is definitely a bit odd. There were a number of glitches, at least in MacGLQuake.
Didn't actually play the map, 'cause I'm stuck with a trackpad for the moment.
Jpl
#11 posted by Vondur [81.195.21.179] on 2004/11/21 11:28:06
this map is much better!
good job :)
Hmmm
#12 posted by Megazoid [62.252.32.14] on 2004/11/21 15:01:41
Well, I thought it was excellent. :)
Strangely it's similar to a map I've kind of started. I thought the textures and architecture were really well done. Managed to get around the faults with the hard level by using Tomaz Quake. This map on level 3 is a total bitch, but then that's what it should be.
Nice one!
Pretty Impressive
#13 posted by starbuck [129.215.13.83] on 2004/11/21 18:19:03
this map definitely shows a lot of potential, keep at it JPL. I wouldn't take a lot of work to make this map look excellent. It needs a coherent scheme of lighting, with a few different types of lights that are repeated throughout. Maybe some spotlights for the walls would have been good, as well as more subtlety, and toning down the brightness a bit.
Brushwork is very good, interesting in general, but quite often one or two of the walls will be completely boring, with everything else being nicely detailed. I especially noticed that in the bit where there's 2 screens and a button on a platform... its all uberdetailed but the outside walls of the big room are completely flat and the textures stand out.
Gameplay was alright, a bit of fighting shamblers with rockets for me though, didnt like that. Looking forward to your next release though, it wouldn't take much to make this a great map.
Typo
#14 posted by starbuck [129.215.13.83] on 2004/11/21 18:20:22
I wouldn't take a lot of work to make this map look excellent.
Should have been:
It wouldn't take a lot of work to make this map look excellent.
Aye Sir
#15 posted by Zwiffle [69.210.85.126] on 2004/11/21 23:07:50
I definitely thought it was an improvement over Hellchepsout. I think the main problem here is the lack of overall detail work; Someone already said some parts are uberdetailed while the rest of the map suffers. Scampie told me once that it's not one or two set centerpieces that people notice, it's the entire feel of the map. If you have a couple great eye candy spots, then the rest of the map probably suffers because of it, and I think that's the case here.
You had some great areas, lots of great fighting arenas after the initial tunnel area. Some of the monsters were used ineffectively compared to the rooms they were in. Vores for example were used almost exclusively in areas where you could easily just duck behind a corner. Shamblers were put in long corriders, where you could back up and they couldn't even attack you, etc.
I found 4/4 secrets, only the megahealth and red armor I noticed. I take that back, there was a Quad Damage I found after I cleared out an entire room of guys. :(
It was a pretty big map, with lots of hoard combat. I prefer smaller, more focused battles, but overall the gameplay was pretty good. The map itself is nice, it just needs a lot of overall polish and cohesion. There were lots of random-seeming architecture, that, while pretty neat, didn't contribute well to the level.
I think everyone pretty much said the same stuff, so I'll just say what they said again. You've got a lot of potential, you just need to refine and polish. Good work sir.
Excellent Review
#16 posted by HeadThump [65.140.59.20] on 2004/11/21 23:17:00
now I'll have to play the map!
Thanks
#17 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2004/11/22 02:04:38
Well, after the firsts 2 comments, I was afraid to be really flamed this time.... But, now I'm really glad to hear that even if the map is not perfect (due to this funcking bug i hard skill.. which I will try to solve quickly), the major part of you guys have a good impression about it.
So I would like to thank everybody for your consructive feddback (I learn from bad and good comment), and all the encouragements you gave me..... I think _Func place is definitively the best Quake mapping forum...
Great Work...
#18 posted by Trinca [194.65.31.249] on 2004/11/22 06:44:25
man is a realy peace of art...i love the map very much keep making good things like that!
Oo
#19 posted by vb [211.30.139.241] on 2004/11/22 07:19:12
gonna dload now :>
UPDATE !!!
#20 posted by JPL [212.96.79.49] on 2004/11/22 15:50:54
I've just updated the map in order to be able to play it on hard skill. It seems not ot crash any more on FitzQuake, so I hope it's OK now... Let me now if you reach any problem..
Had Fun
#21 posted by hanz [80.221.27.82] on 2004/11/22 19:49:19
Well, I disliked the lift that moved on its own. It's boring to wait for those. And you sealed the shortcuts with invisible brushes, so it's not really speedrunnable. I'll concentrate on the small, others have covered the rest already :P
.
#22 posted by Megazoid [62.252.32.14] on 2004/11/22 23:06:05
Well, I disliked the lift that moved on its own.
...not being funny, but wtf. Since when has this been a mapping crime?
*sigh* ...I just can't wait to bring out a map myself. I'm just gonna sooo love reading your reviews.
About The Lift
#23 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2004/11/23 02:14:03
Well, I was asking here in the mapping help thread how to solve this problem using triggers or some some other stuffs. Many mappers answered me that it is easily possible with a "2 levels" lift, but if there are more, the better way is to let the lift run free, and just wait for it.
BTW, I agree, it's sometimes boring to wait for it... Anyway, it works fine, and it's the most important isn't it ??
Speedrunning...
#24 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/11/23 04:16:58
It is possible, just fairly slow. There's a big shortcut in the GK Door room - slope jump onto the suspended platform thing, then sneak in through a little gap at the top of the stairs on the right. Then get gold key, return to that room, and exit, blah.
Megazoid, don't be stupid. The lift moving on it's own accord is a poor idea because it means you have to wait around a lot to use it (and you have to use it quite a lot in this map).
Shambler
#25 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2004/11/24 03:16:51
... it seems you find a hole in a clip brush.. grrr...
Played It ,Liked It.
#26 posted by Kay Berntsen [158.112.84.2] on 2004/11/24 04:59:36
Very nice map. Liked the wide, open areas. But agreed with Hanz about the lift. BTW, does the lift activate on the shootbuttons, or does it go from the start? Cause it seemed to me that it didnt matter how fast I did the first section, the lift was always at the same place (almost at the top) when I reached. Maybe I'm wrong here...
Also agree that clipbrushes is a no-no, unless it's used in areas that you wouldnt fit through, to "smooth out" a floor where you've carved some decorations for example. Or to control monster behaviour. Used simply to block off the possibility of taking a short-cut, is a major turn off for me anyway. If that was your goal, you'd first of all need to clipbrush that silverkey. And about a dusin other places, so I dont really see the point behind it.
This is from a speedrunning viewpoint of course, so most players probably don't care. That's fine with me =)
Anyway, great map. Really enjoyed it, and hope to see more!
/Kay_B
Kay
#27 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2004/11/24 06:18:08
You are right, the lift is activated by the 2 first shootbuttons.. perhaps I should started it on a lower level in order to let more time to the player here.. I added clip brushes in order to force the player to fight monsters, regardless of speedrunning contest... I will takemuch more care about speedrunning next time for sure.
Well, I' glad you globaly enjoyed the map.
BTW, I thank everybody for the encouragements I found here...
Edicts
#28 posted by Ankh [212.121.135.226] on 2004/11/26 07:34:10
Hi JP
Have you solved the edicts problem? It is not so easy to reduce the number of edicts. I also have this problem, but it appears already on normal skill. I see no chance to go down with the edicts and will have to recommend playing the map with custom engines.
I have 570 active edicts in the beginning of the level on both normal and hard skill. And I always get a crash with standard winquake. I don't have this problems with joequake.
I guess I have to get rid of 30 edicts :(
Oh yes, and I liked playing your level. The middle part was most entertaining for me.
Ankh
#29 posted by JPL [212.96.77.73] on 2004/11/27 06:04:02
Yes, and not... The edict crash occurs if you try the game (with console cheats..) in hard skill, god mode, quad damage, and rocket launcher, and try to speed as far as possible during the game... edictcount is about 604 (aguirRe's value feedback, and against 620 more or less before the changes..) Nevertheless, if you try to play the game in a normal way (without cheats), you can close the map without crash... BTW, I also recommend to use FitzQuake, instead of Winquake which is powerless, to play my map(s)... I noticed that Winquake have problems into the map "rendering" (some "grey zones" in the backward appear sometimes..)
As you said, edict count is difficult to reduce. I do the job removing lights, and monsters / health in hard skill... It's a quick turnaround, but at least it worked here..
Oh... and I forgot to thank you for your feedback: I'm glad you enjoy the map... ;)
Grey Zones.
#30 posted by necros [66.185.84.74] on 2004/11/27 19:01:55
that is to say grayflash.
this is easily fixable via console (or command line?) variables. so don't worry about that. :)
Necros
#31 posted by JPL [212.96.76.31] on 2004/11/28 03:57:46
yes that's it... ;p
You Don't Believe Me?
#32 posted by necros [66.185.84.74] on 2004/11/28 12:42:34
r_maxsurfs 3000
r_maxedges 8500
try that.
you can even set maxsurfs and maxedges to huge numbers like 10000 and 40000 to make sure there is no gray flash.
I Played - And Liked
#33 posted by Scragbait [67.68.0.99] on 2004/11/28 17:21:32
I just finished the first issue of this map on hard (wish I had grabbed the fixed version.) Here are my comments:
- Overall, I liked this map and thought it was well built and offered may interesting areas to go through. I especially liked that bridge supported by the two oblique arches. I like bridges in general and this one was sweet. There were lots of interesting structures, walkways and machines.
- Textures and lighting gave this complex an Austen Powers' feel. This suited the over-the-top hop and blast gameplay. Gameplay was like Painkiller without the kill-gates. I played just as Shambler described. Kind of fun but frustrating sometimes. Overall, this was fun and demonstrates one of Quake's possible gameplay styles.
- I used FitzQuake 0.75 and that button dumped me every time. I noclipped through the door that it opened and finished the game before noclipping back though the exit bars and going back to the bad button, hitting it, and then killing the enemies that spawned. I ended up with 100% kills using this workaround on your first release.
- I agree with Kay about clip brushes. They should not be obvious and used only for the purposes of good. If you don't want a player to take a certain path, put in visible barriers or change geometry to seal off pathways. I tried RJing over the rails to deal with the button crash only to encounter glaring and un-needed clips. Most SP players like to clean out levels anyways so losing the clips would not hurt your map and would offer some interest to speedrunners.
- I tended not to wait for that lift and often willingly paid the 5% penalty to just jump down.
- Good secrets. I got all 4.
- Overall, great map and I hope to see more. I think this forum has offered some useful tips and you do have what it takes. Let's hope SP keeps going as I have maps on the go too.
Necros; Scragbait
#34 posted by JPL [212.96.75.207] on 2004/11/29 11:42:33
necros:.. I was just saying I agree with you !! I believe you when you said it can be solved by console commands, because it was the first time I see this kind of "grey flashes" in the backward with WinQuake... I meant: "yes, that's the problem I've seen", and I didn't want to be ironical with your explanations, sorry if I hurted you.. Anyway, I will test your soluce: thanx for the info!
Scragbait: Thank for your feedback, I'm glad you globally enjoyed the map.
Necros...
#35 posted by JPL [212.96.74.20] on 2004/11/30 03:53:19
.. I've just tested your console commands in order to avoid "grey flashes", but even if the problem is reduced, it remains some huge zone where it is visible... anyway, thanks for the infos..
JPL
#36 posted by aguirRe [213.101.70.2] on 2004/11/30 06:09:05
I think you'll need to issue a restart command as well to make it work. You can also try my WinQuake, which has these limits initially set to 100000.
JPL,
#37 posted by necros [142.150.107.96] on 2004/11/30 12:23:09
like i said, just put in HUGE assmoloid numbers and you won't have to worry about it. :) remember, like aguiRe said, you need to restart the map via the restart command, or better yet, load those commands up via the commandline with +r_maxsurf etc...
AguirRe, Necros..
#38 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2004/12/01 01:53:39
OK, thanks, I missed the restart command, thousands apologizes for my lack of knowledge..

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