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Posted by metlslime [204.15.3.5] on 2007/01/24 23:10:35
Pope's new coffee table book project: http://brushwork.leveldesign.org/ fire your questions/admiration/vows/etc to brushworkart@gmail.com - its a work in progress, and I'm very open to hearing what you have to say on the subject. [reposted from the GA thread by metlslime]

Some Questions:
#1 posted by metlslime [204.15.3.5] on 2007/01/24 23:28:55
First: How much research have you done into the physical process of getting a book printed? Meaning, who do you have to hire for printing and bindin? What materials do you have to provide to them (PDFs of each page?) Will it be hardcover or paperback? How do you choose the paper stock, etc? How much does it cost? From what I understand, people generally print books like this at "vanity publishers" who print extremely low runs with no real expectation of selling books on shelves.
Second, how many pages, what sort of content (all screenshots vs. screenshots mixed with text) how many levels per author, how many pages devoted to each level, etc.
My suggestion on the second question is to limit it to one level per author, and go in-depth on each level: 2-4 pages per level, with lots of shots and diagrams, and small paragraphs explaining the cool features (including notable gameplay such as a boss battle etc.) I'm thinking of some architecture books I have that do the same treatment with buildings.
Metl
#2 posted by pope [154.20.175.44] on 2007/01/25 00:27:36
thanks for starting this thread up. I was going to do so when I woke up this morning(afternoon)
as for the physical process of printing - I was planning on tackling this the same way Hourences did using lulu.com. I assemble PDF files for the content and the cover.This limits some options definitely but saves from a extremely large up front investment. As for the paper stock, I think chocies are limited between b&w, and colour. Colour being alot heavier and suitable for photographs. Anyone who has Hourences book, I wouldn't mind hearing about the quality of the photos printed and the paper weight.
The final cost of each unit will be highly dependent on how many designers I can get involved. I'm unaware of any "vanity publishers" in my area, but if You know of any I'd like to take a look.
number of pages: again highly dependent on how many people I can get involved. As for content I personally want to keep the copy text very minimal, similar to most architecture/interior design type books. 2 page spreads are my current goal per map author, featuring at least 2 maps. But I do like your idea of going in depth this could work for some of the larger map projects definitely. *cough rubicon2?* :D
Re: General Abuse Questions
#3 posted by pope [154.20.175.44] on 2007/01/25 00:32:11
bear: maps don't necessarily need to be complete/released/whatever.
generic: if there is a huge amount of involvment interest, then yes some cuts will have to be made. At this point however I'd like to have everyone I possibly can involved.
Pope:
#4 posted by metlslime [69.181.182.38] on 2007/01/25 06:28:58
Also, are you planning on focussing this book primarily on visual design of levels, or a mix of visual and gameplay?
Also, I would recommend devoting most of the content to the maps themselves and only provide minimal info on the mapper -- realname, screen name, age, city, country?
Finally, I would make an effort to include only released, downloadable levels. If you really want to kick ass, the book should have an companion webpage with downloads of all the featured levels.
Yes...
#5 posted by distrans [131.172.4.44] on 2007/01/25 06:56:06
...I agree with metlslime:
- Companion site is a must
- Most of the content on maps
- With respect to that content 80% design 20% gameplay maximum, it is a static picture book after all.
What About A Companion CD?
#6 posted by bear [130.242.7.26] on 2007/01/25 13:42:02
I think the book would be better with only finished maps even if it'd probably mean that I'm out since I only have old releases that I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about including.
This Is A Great Idea
#7 posted by ijed [190.82.54.94] on 2007/01/25 13:45:19
And with the community behind it could turn into something very nice indeed.
Other Question
#8 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2007/01/25 13:48:50
What would be the criteria of quality of the maps you would like to include in your project ? It has also its importance, right ?
Pope You Must!
#9 posted by czg [213.115.252.84] on 2007/01/25 13:53:24
Include a section on rich_bar and chqmd
Uh
#10 posted by megaman [84.63.38.137] on 2007/01/25 15:30:23
i was actually positively surprised of the idea to include non-released work. Don't drop that :/
:o
#11 posted by Spirit [213.39.187.140] on 2007/01/25 15:33:54
Where is the point on including unreleased maps? Maps are meant for playing, thus I would hate to see unreleased "gimmick" maps in such book.
Hmm...
#12 posted by Bal [90.2.39.236] on 2007/01/25 15:59:14
Yeah having mostly released stuff is probably best, but why not have a dedicated section to scraps maybe? With just a collection of beautiful screenshots from unfinished maps. Obviously give them less importance/pages than finished works though.
Scraps
#13 posted by inertia [134.53.176.37] on 2007/01/25 17:52:37
Scraps are an important part of mapping. Nice brushwork and stuff like that which never see the light of day -- expose them! like czg in public
Cool
#14 posted by NotoriousRay [69.250.98.187] on 2007/01/25 18:05:59
I love this idea, and I'd like to contribute in any way possible.
As far as content, I don't have any problem with including unreleased work. It sounds like pope is attempting to show the artistic side of level design and not necessarily the usability or gameplay aspects. (Correct me if I'm wrong, pope.)
Not everyone has a huge library of released work anyways (or at least, released work that would be worth featuring).
Why Are We Talking About Gameplay At All?
#15 posted by Lunaran [24.159.240.226] on 2007/01/25 18:43:25
it's an art book, right? about brushwork? crap about where the cthon electrode buttons are in THIS room isn't really going to help the book at all.
Comments:
#16 posted by metlslime [204.15.3.5] on 2007/01/25 20:59:41
I agree on the purely artistic focus, don't mention gameplay. It is an art book, and I realized gameplay is not appropriate.
Regarding unreleased maps -- this shoul not be just about making a good screenshot, it's about making a good level. The act of completing and publishing a level is a significant aspect of the accomplishment.
But, Bal's idea of having a few pages at the end which show a collection of shots from WIP or abandoned projects would be cool.
Re: Unreleased / Unfinished Work. & Re: Quality Criteria
#17 posted by pope [154.20.175.44] on 2007/01/26 01:36:10
Lun nailed it, it's an art book. There are no plans for any 'gameplay' related paragraphs at all at this point.
I would like to be open to the possibility of including unreleased work because I know there is lots of amazing stuff out there that has never been seen publicly, nor will it in any other way. Finished maps are still the primary focus however.
re: JPL
Regarding criteria on quality, thats a real gray area. I've included a brief bit in the FAQ about it in case I'm swamped with a torrent of boxmaps or something. There will be work that I won't even think twice about including. Then there will be some I will no doubt go asking for opinions on. I hate to exclude someone because they didn't make the next Marchers Fortress or Rich_Bar (thats totally art).
Download
#18 posted by inertia [134.53.176.37] on 2007/01/26 01:43:52
you can make it a free pdf too right?
Inertia
#19 posted by pope [154.20.175.44] on 2007/01/26 05:13:15
yes thats possible, but really not the point.
might as well look at websites y'know?
#20 posted by Scampie [66.168.16.153] on 2007/01/26 06:46:19
I like the unreleased maps idea as well. An unfinished painting by a famous artist, or scraps of notes on a passage in a classic book, etc are still valuable and interesting in showing some thought process and growth of the artist/musician/writer. I don't see any differance with level design.
Yeah Except..
#21 posted by metlslime [69.181.182.38] on 2007/01/26 08:43:57
we're not famous artists.
Leonardo daVinci's notebook may be noteworthy and publishable, but some obscure writer's notebook is neither.
<- For Metl
#22 posted by Spirit [213.39.169.237] on 2007/01/26 09:26:26
Unreleased material as for example scraps that were meant to become a full level somewhen or a full level that was somehow never released are pretty much ok for me.
But unreleased work that is just some design test or "hey, I want to get into pope's cool book so I will just slap some brushes together" would SUCK.
I was not talking about the gameplay being discussed in the book. But a level is built around gameplay/playing in it. A cool looking room might be an interesting techdemo/show-off but in a brushwork book I expect "real" maps.
I hope this is easier to understand, my english is sometimes rather sucky.
Poep
#23 posted by gibbie [82.161.62.98] on 2007/01/26 13:31:12
What about mappers that aren't around anymore? There are many maps that imo should be in the book but since the authors have left 'the scene' small chance they're gonna send you a mail...
Some examples: Laerth, Gilt, Peej, Escher, Cheshire, Headshot, Moloch, Danimal, Jvox, Killjoy, Malevola, Gandhi, Gen, ZTN, QMD, etc.
Yeah
#24 posted by ijed [190.82.53.124] on 2007/01/26 14:13:31
Maybe have a section on 'previous mappers' and 'new mappers' and I reckon that including design sketches (if they exist) alongside screenshots would look pretty cool - its always interesting to see the thought process that produced the final map.
As well as this I don't quite agree that ignoring everything but the visuals is a good idea - a map is a representation of a 3d space. Gameplay isn't so important to a pure art book but if it's tense, relaxed, sniping or tight then that makes a big difference on how the player experiences the brushwork or setting.
And thats not even to mention sound fx or environmental fx - though I reckon there's not many 3rd party single maps that really stand out on that score, though there's plenty of packs eg. Nehahra.
Gibbie
#25 posted by pope [154.20.175.44] on 2007/01/26 14:46:05
Yeah, the plan is to hunt as many down as I can. That being said, if anyone has contact information please gimme a shout in that regards, or give them a shout, or whatever.
I'll probably have to hunt down numerous mapps who are still around to. :D
!
#26 posted by Spirit [213.39.169.237] on 2007/01/26 15:06:02
Don't forget Glassman. http://www.glassman.mistral.co.uk/...
Question.
#27 posted by PuLSaR [62.183.2.95] on 2007/01/27 09:40:26
What is the main focus of the book: Q1SP, any Q1 maps, QxSP/DM or custom levels for any FPS?
What is the country where you want to release your book? Will it be possible to offer it online to be delivered to (for example) Russia?
Pulsar
#28 posted by pope [154.20.175.44] on 2007/01/27 13:53:23
since gameplay isn't an issue it doesn't matter if its SP, DM, RA, Tech demo, whatever...
choosing to use lulu.com which as far as I know has successfully shipped across the entire globe just fine.
Yikes
#29 posted by Kinn [195.92.144.188] on 2007/01/30 14:03:57
I've been away from the Inter-tron for a while so this is the first I've heard of this project :o
This sounds really interesting and I'd love to be involved in this if possible.
Pope
#30 posted by inertia [134.53.176.37] on 2007/01/31 04:47:38
my nick is inertia not Inertia :x
Poop
#31 posted by SleepwalkR [87.77.92.205] on 2007/01/31 11:19:23
Did you get my email?
Inertia
#32 posted by spd [193.124.10.152] on 2007/01/31 12:28:09
and you are a pseudo-mapper haha
So Pope, Maybe A Stupid Question...
#33 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2007/01/31 13:18:55
... what would be a typical "delivery" for a mapper that would be a part of your project (e.g, screenshots, .bsp file, etc..) ? Maybe it sounds obvious but I like when things are clear.. ;)
Broop
#34 posted by pope [154.20.164.142] on 2007/01/31 13:48:00
kinn: yes please, fire an email to brushworkart@gmail.com please so I can get you on the list.
inertia: yah my bad, i know that...
sleepwalkr: I'm checkin' now :D
JPL: well for a lot of the maps I'll be able to acquire them myself or already have them so delivery won't be necessary. As for people sending me screenshots, there is a BIG issue surrounding the size of images regarding print. a 1600x1200 72dpi picture is only something in the area of 2 inches big. (I'll calculate that later) I can cheat and force images to 300dpi and get 5x4.3 inch pictures. This doesn't really answer your question properly, I'm kind of speculating to myself right now.
So um... 'typical delivery' will likely be simply discussing with the individual which of there work they would like to show and I'll handle the rest. This won't be so for every case, so don't hold me to that.
SleepwalkR
#35 posted by pope [154.20.164.142] on 2007/01/31 13:49:56
I just checked, i didn't get any email from you :(
please try again
include
First Name "Nickname" Lastname
as well please :D
SleepwalkR Pt2
#36 posted by pope [154.20.164.142] on 2007/01/31 14:37:51
Unless you were referring to your jan24th email.
yah i got that. sorry I thought you meant a more recent one.
Pope
#37 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2007/01/31 18:18:13
Maybe you should fix some "delivery rules" like:
- prefered zip tool (e.g WinZip, WinRAR, dzip, etc..)
- screenshots format and resolution (e.g 1200x900, .tga, etc...)
- demos ?
- txt file format ?
- .bsp / pack / progs (specific stuff, etc..)
- others...
Well, it is what I would see in term of delivery... I guess you could refined that to your taste... anyway, I guess it would be cool to define a "starting point" in order to uniquify the stuff of your project.
what do you think ? Any other ideas ?
Spd
#38 posted by inertia [134.53.176.37] on 2007/01/31 21:02:54
I'm not pseudo, i'm non
Pope:
#39 posted by metlslime [204.15.3.5] on 2007/01/31 21:14:02
add me to the damn list :)
Pope
#40 posted by . [70.224.206.161] on 2007/01/31 22:27:47
Maybe you could contact some marketing guys at various developers and ask how they get full-page and 2-page screenshot spreads without quality loss.
I was discussing your project with a friend who does print and we were really wondering how you're going to pass off probably the highest res achievable - 1600 x 1200, at 72dpi. But then I thought "hey its done in magazines, theres gotta be some way".
The Way Is
#41 posted by Lunaran [70.226.151.179] on 2007/01/31 22:52:42
they don't measure a print dot and a screen pixel as 1:1. DPI refers to the halftoning, and besides being very very very tiny they're just layered CMYK so look you guys know how that works already. 1 pixel does not equal 1 dpi.
The DPI always has to be higher, in some cases much higher, than the image res itself to accurately and cleanly represent the colors in the bitmap. The question isn't of print resolution, it's of whether or not boxy pixels will be visible in a 1600x1200 screenshot fit on a 8.5"x11" page. Which, of course, they won't be. Most of you are probably looking at 1600x1200 on a 19" monitor right now. Those pixels printed on an A4 sheet are only going to get smaller.
Don't worry about it. :P
Erh
#42 posted by pope [154.20.164.142] on 2007/01/31 22:54:05
JPL: I don't think you even read my response.
Metl: You're currently unconfirmed! now confirmed.
Phait. Well all fullpage shosts I've seen they've no doubt simply scaled up the images because the quality has never been great. At least with older games. Resampling them to 300dpi won't make them prettier, but due to their content won't make them uglier either.
Another idea is to stitch images together. But I can see problems with that and the fov settings. But it's certainly possible.
Resolution
#43 posted by metlslime [204.15.3.5] on 2007/02/01 03:21:35
Well, what Lunaran said may be correct, in which case we don't need high resolution renders.
If it turns out we do, I could imagine putting a render command into fitzquake to produce a higher-res tga file of the current scene.
Metl
#44 posted by . [70.224.206.161] on 2007/02/01 03:38:09
Sure, but what if there are non-Q1 submissions.
Lunaran Is Right
#45 posted by HeadThump [4.136.111.103] on 2007/02/01 04:38:01
otherwise at '1600x1200 72dpi picture is only something in the area of 2 inches big', digital art for even simple band posters would be impossible with current technology.
Well,
#46 posted by metlslime [69.181.182.38] on 2007/02/01 05:20:37
blackpope's math was totally wrong in that case anyway.
I Blame It
#47 posted by HeadThump [4.136.111.103] on 2007/02/01 06:24:40
on the years he spent as a bassist for Spinal Tap.
Pope
#48 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2007/02/01 08:43:46
JPL: I don't think you even read my response
Yes I did, and that's why I'd like you to precise a little more things (like screenshots size, etc..) in order to have some consistency between several deliveries... Maybe I was not clear... Anyway, never mind...
JPL
#49 posted by Ankh [212.121.135.226] on 2007/02/01 10:07:49
I think that all screenshots should be done on one computer using always the same engine and graphic settings. I guess that pope will use fitzquake for q1 maps. Most of the levels should be available in Spirit's map archive so there is a chance that a special delivery from the mapper won't be even needed. That's my guess :)
I Stated
#50 posted by pope [154.20.164.142] on 2007/02/01 10:08:08
"'typical delivery' will likely be simply discussing with the individual which of there work they would like to show and I'll handle the rest."
IE, i don't expect anyone to deliver me any screenshots of their own. Unless I ask them specifically, but I'd like to try and avoid that to decrease the headaches.
And...
#51 posted by Bal [83.204.222.52] on 2007/02/01 10:14:59
Increase the head ache from authors not satisfied with the screenshots you took. =D
Gasp...
#52 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2007/02/01 10:16:37
I think I understan what you mean, as all my screenshots are conseidered as " too dark " by most of people here ;)
In Regards To Sizes
#53 posted by pope [154.20.164.142] on 2007/02/01 10:24:44
yeah now I've gone and confused myself in trying to answer. I really should stop trying to do that when so tired.
screenshots from fitzquake turn out just fine at 1600x1200 and can easily fit across an 8x11 page. so Don't worry too much about it.
and yah my math was totally wrong. I was thinking of something else
Pope
#54 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2007/02/01 11:28:47
You have email ;)
!
#55 posted by PuLSaR [62.183.3.9] on 2007/02/01 16:34:36
add me to the list too
Pulsar
#56 posted by pope [154.20.164.142] on 2007/02/01 18:04:12
please do. contact brushworkart@gmail.com so I can get you in there all yankee doodle dandy.
first name "nickname" last name
Bal
#57 posted by pope [154.20.164.142] on 2007/02/01 18:06:47
yeah I can see that happening. i seriously hope it doesn't. I'm allowing a lot of room for input from everyone participating, it would be a damn shame that when It's all complete, there's bitching. ;)
well except from those who I expect to bitch regardless because thats their nature.
you know who you are!
Yes I Do.
#58 posted by Lunaran [70.226.151.179] on 2007/02/01 18:34:03
Mappers could always send you proof-screenshots, like, "I like these areas from these angles." Then you could retake them yourself, composed nicely and at the right size/aspect/brightness
That ^
#59 posted by pjw [67.129.250.254] on 2007/02/01 19:32:41
is a good suggestion.
(and, yeah, I'm in too)
This Is Gonna Rock So Hard
#60 posted by Blitz [75.89.74.51] on 2007/02/02 06:23:47
8D
I see big things for this!! Cheers to pope for finally getting his idea going :)
He Doesn't Mean It!
#61 posted by Lunaran [70.226.151.179] on 2007/02/02 08:08:46
[22:48] <Bl1tz||> hi
[22:49] <Bl1tz||> I'm full of liqour and 30$ steak so have at me gentlemen
[22:49] * Bl1tz|| adjusts suspenders
Lun
#62 posted by pope [154.20.164.142] on 2007/02/03 00:50:37
yeah, i thought of that. and it's certainly accepted. I just don't see it happening with EVERYONE, especially some of those that keep distant contact.
im up to 20 participants (not including myself) hurrah. I'm gunnin for at least twice that. But I'm well on my way.
Pope
#63 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2007/02/04 12:32:56
Just another question (sorry if the answer has been already provided here, I didn't re-read all the posts): How are you going to choose what will be included in the book? Do you plan to discuss separately with all mappers? Or do you need some indications about what each mapper's work would like to be included?
My Work Plan Is This
#64 posted by pope [154.20.179.188] on 2007/02/04 18:45:21
As I get to the page of a particular author I will go through their maps myself (godmode/noclip) :D and take a look for things that stand out to me. Then I'd like to get back to the individual mappers, see if they have anything in particular they want to show, stuff they're proud of, maybe some unreleased stuff. Then decide what to keep, what to toss.
Pope
#65 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2007/02/04 22:34:11
OK, it is clear. I have one more map ready (for Base Pack since december), and on more in progress. I will look forward for your email so... ;)
Pope
#66 posted by PuLSaR [62.183.3.28] on 2007/02/08 18:04:57
I sent you an email but I'm still not added to that list
Next Step?
#67 posted by metlslime [204.15.3.5] on 2007/02/08 20:08:03
pope, i don't know what you're working on right now, but I would suggest that the next step is for you to create a mock up of a couple of pages, such as an example 2-page spread on a single level. You will probably get more interest if you can show people what to expect. Also, you might get more feedback from us on the formatting, amount of text, etc. etc.
No No
#68 posted by Lunaran [70.226.151.179] on 2007/02/08 21:17:52
several potential mockups so we can argue incessantly about them!
$10 Right Now
#69 posted by pjw [71.90.22.143] on 2007/02/09 03:27:55
...that someone will end up taking their toys and going home because some decision/direction doesn't match up with their expectations and opinions.
The rest of us can mock them.
#70 posted by pjw [71.90.22.143] on 2007/02/09 03:28:53
Speaking of mockups.
Pope
#71 posted by . [70.224.195.11] on 2007/02/09 05:54:13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lulu....
Well
#72 posted by ijed [190.82.51.134] on 2007/02/09 15:47:19
I started droning on about atmosphere and snfx, forgetting the name of the book :P
But the thing about Lulu is that anyone who does whinge and fall out can go and print thier very own book! (maybe it could be funded somehow by reverse $10 bets?) and only let thier friends buy it, not any poo-poo heads.
#73 posted by wrath [213.112.29.148] on 2007/02/11 13:59:00
This should be handled by a small team of editors, not on a submission basis; Headshot is probably not going to mail you, so you'll gonna have to get a hold of him.
Also, I'd suggest not making it into an art or photo-book only, but a full blown interview & retrospective thing. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing proper.
Regards To Updating The Page
#74 posted by pope [154.20.179.188] on 2007/02/11 23:28:08
I can't at the moment since leveldesign.org is having some user account password troubles. Scampie has filed a trouble ticket, so we're just waiting on that.
Mockups
#75 posted by pope [154.20.179.188] on 2007/02/11 23:33:56
thats a good idea, and I was thinking something along those lines.
However, since I'm not excactly commited to the idea of having the same layout on every page right now. I think I will still provide a glimpse of what I've got plotted so far...
Should anyone feel they want to exclude themselves based on my layout choices, it would be a shame. This is also why I'd like to discuss individual pages with some of the authors who may not like how their work is presented. Of course it will be a battle trying to please everyone 100%. So instead I will please 99% of the people, and will single out Lunaran by denying him any further input. Hahah, i kid.
Wrath
#76 posted by pope [154.20.179.188] on 2007/02/11 23:36:48
yes I've put out some fingers to communicate with headshot (thanks sleepwalkr) already.
As per your suggestion. You're more than welcome to write your own book. I'm no copy editor and my grammar is sub par. Besides that's not the point and that would almost triple the amount of work and time this could take.
Pope
#77 posted by . [70.224.195.11] on 2007/02/11 23:57:20
Pop-up maps. Oh yeah. And you could appropriately feature that one map by RPG.
Re: Mockups
#78 posted by metlslime [204.15.3.5] on 2007/02/12 20:30:04
However, since I'm not excactly commited to the idea of having the same layout on every page right now.
I wasn't suggesting that every page have the exact same layout, but surely one could look at a couple example pages and imagine what the book would be like.
Yes
#79 posted by bambuz [213.169.28.6] on 2007/02/14 17:51:27
Make it so that when you open a page, cardboard 3d brushwork jumps at you.
Plastic quakeguy and ogres are included to be placed on the brushwork.
Otherwise this book project will suck.
And A Chip In It
#80 posted by pjw [67.129.250.254] on 2007/02/14 19:26:17
that plays Quake music, or NIN in general, or farting noises or something.
Pope
#81 posted by Orl [70.104.90.11] on 2007/02/17 01:00:31
I emailed you weeks ago, and talked with you on terrafusion about adding me to the list, yet I am still not on it. Is there a problem?
Teensy Update On Whats Going On
#82 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/03/04 23:00:26
I've decided to go with 8.25" x 10.75" Hardcover casewrap. In case you don't know what casewraped is, its like a laminated hardcover book (glossy) without a dustjacket.
I've been tinkering around with some layouts, not too hapy with much so far. but I think I will use something to this effect for any 2 page spreads - http://brushwork.leveldesign.org/i...
I don't want to stray too far from the screen aspect ratios for the images, but at the same time I would like to for some variety. I should play around with that some more.
I realize a layout like this, or similar, wont be appropriate for an artist with a small portfolio so next up are some single page ideas.
Cool
#83 posted by pjw [24.196.140.188] on 2007/03/05 00:18:21
Nothing wrong with straying from screen aspect ratio--just keep in mind that cropping is usually a better thing than resizing/stretching.
Kinda stating the obvious, I suppose. :)
Yeah
#84 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/03/05 00:19:55
any deviation from screen aspect ratios will be cropped. The individual images will be a big factor in deciding that i suppose.
Pope:
#85 posted by metlslime [71.202.113.29] on 2007/03/05 02:48:55
i kind of think you should try devoting pages to individual levels instead of individual mappers -- in other words, the levels are the stars, rather than the mappers being the stars.
Amen
#86 posted by R.P.G. [65.188.147.21] on 2007/03/05 15:48:23
Agreed
#87 posted by Kinn [86.128.9.139] on 2007/03/05 20:43:17
and is it really necessary to say the age of the mapper?
Worried We Will Stop Taking You Seriously When We Find Out You're 13?
#88 posted by czg [213.115.252.84] on 2007/03/05 22:18:32
I never took you seriously btw jfyi.
Pope
#89 posted by Mike Woodham [86.147.203.90] on 2007/03/05 22:20:47
Can you comment on metlslime's suggestion as I think it deviates somewhat from your original idea - you were going to showcase the artist (" 1 or 2 page spread with a short biography and several images of their work").
That kind of implies several images across several maps? Clearly, the mapper was the star?
How will you deal with someone like czg (assuming he's in the mix) who has a considerable output? A one or two page spread won't do much justice to him as an artist if it only shows one map.
I suppose there's bound to be a need for compromise.
_
#90 posted by ijed [190.82.50.99] on 2007/03/05 22:38:07
I'd be more impressed if a 13 year old had created Marcher Fortress.
In Regards To The Focus
#91 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/03/05 23:25:40
woodham is correct that I hadn't intended on making maps the 'star' at the same time neither do I want to make the artist the 'star' the original idea was to at least introduce the mapper, and then show off 'some' of their works. Yeah in regards to age being shown, it isn't necessary. I think country of origin is a detail that many would like to know, helps show just how widespread this 'hobby' is.
In regards to an author with a vast catalogue (so far czg refuses to sign up, so we'll use vondur as a reference from this point on) the work they feel the most proud showing of course. in a 2 page spread at the moment i'm looking at 6 images. perhaps their BEST map could fill one page, and then 2nd page have 3 shots of different maps? it's really a case by case scenario. I have also made 2 single page layouts for those with a < 3 portfolio of stuff they want to show.
But yeah if someone wants to show off all 23 maps they did... well they can make their own book for that!
Also: I'm considering black backgrounds for the pages. what do you think? I'm a bit iffy on the idea because of how lulu.com works, i've read some reports of bleed not working properly when printed so if you were to pry open the spine you could see white edges if you were unlucky. However I think the overall effect might be nice? (not necessarily black, but a dark background colour)
Type
#92 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/03/05 23:31:19
also, I've been toying with the idea of purchasing the rights to a unique typeface for the book. If anyone has any suggestions i'd love to hear them. Most likely a gothic/grotesque sans-serif (this is NOT a medieval blackletter fyi), or if I can find a nice elegant roman serif that doesn't make someone think of Times.
this is for copy text. i think ill make a trip to the bookstore and check out what they've got.
Text
#93 posted by ijed [201.222.206.217] on 2007/03/06 01:13:20
You could always try larabie fonts, they´ve got quite a few nice ones.
Black would work well with the atypical Quake screenshot, but might be too heavy for the entire book. Maybe an almost black shade of a colour could be used - maybe it could be colour-coded by mapper (referencing thier handle colour here maybe?) so that´d make Vondur´s section dark green, CZG´s dark blue.
Mind you, that´d probably get endless arguments over who wants to be Mr Blond.
Oh For God's Sake Don't Put Screenshots Against A Colored Background
#94 posted by Lunaran [75.4.185.124] on 2007/03/06 04:05:02
please
Amen
#95 posted by R.P.G. [65.188.147.21] on 2007/03/06 04:25:17
Font
#96 posted by inertia [134.53.176.37] on 2007/03/06 06:51:16
Modify the quake font to make it more readable! or something
Hmm...
#97 posted by Bal [82.224.161.165] on 2007/03/06 08:47:36
Isn't black a big no-no in print? And yeah, colored background is worse than white.
What Lunaran And Bal Said!
#98 posted by Gom Jabbar [87.139.120.209] on 2007/03/06 14:52:44
Just An Idea
#99 posted by ijed [190.82.50.99] on 2007/03/06 15:34:06
Because I've heard the same about using black in print.
Its Unanimous Then
#100 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/03/06 20:17:10
...still pokin' around fonts tho'
damn lun, do you remember that site i showed you about 3-4weeks back?
Larabie
#101 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/03/06 20:18:46
and it's associate pay sites are not what i'm after, ijed. these are all display fonts :\
Just Will All On Image Space
#102 posted by bear [80.217.113.98] on 2007/03/06 22:29:39
with wizmet
Fill
#103 posted by bear [80.217.113.98] on 2007/03/06 22:30:33
phil
Pope
#104 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2007/03/06 23:01:21
Regarding Mike Woodham maps, I think he deserves his page(s) in your book !
Pope
#105 posted by Lunaran [70.226.135.230] on 2007/03/07 00:25:12
Oh, jeez ... not really. I can SEE it visually plain as day but I'll be damned if I could tell you what it was called. :(
you should have shown a science major.
maybe ask von to dig in the redbot logs for our conversation about it?
Whoops
#106 posted by ijed [201.222.202.223] on 2007/03/07 01:20:04
I realised after posting that all that stuff - like myfonts - that you´ll have come across there was useless for book printing. I´ve used them for GUI´s and know they can be free to nonprofiters.
The standard Quake font made more readable would be very nice, but I can´t see it happening unless someone with the patience and knowhow offers to help. Mainly because converting it to the right resolution for 30+ characters is very painstaking work.
#107 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/03/07 11:17:35
"The standard Quake font made more readable would be very nice, but I can´t see it happening unless someone with the patience and knowhow offers to help"
I have the knowhow, but fuck if I have the patience (or that amount of self hate) to do it. Quake font is again, a display font, to make it legible as copy text...forget it
"Mainly because converting it to the right resolution for 30+ characters is very painstaking work."
resolution isn't really an issue, they're vectors. perhaps you are confusing point size. but yeah, stupid amount of work for something that isn't worth it, lets not forget using someone elses intellectual property.
Lun, fear not... i know i found it via a link in my e-mail, so i'll poke around in there.
Sure
#108 posted by ijed [190.82.49.140] on 2007/03/07 14:12:40
If I do come across a nice gothic / plainletter type font as close to free as makes no difference I'll let you know.
I was thinking of vectors but don't have the knowhow etc. The only people who do that sort of thing for work are even more clinically insane than old-fashioned cell animators.
Pope, Actually
#109 posted by JohnXmas [81.62.202.39] on 2007/03/07 17:07:40
I own this font collection: http://www.cthulhulives.org/toybox...
If it suits your needs, I can ask HPLHS if they grant a free use for the book. Quake and HPL Historical Society... Could be a perfect match! And a nice Lovecraft logo in the credits! :) First I might send you the collection for some layout test. Just tell me...
I was thinking... have you considered to raise some funds? A collector limited numbered head printing? This pattern is really a project boost!
Anyway, the font collection is $20 only... Here's an offer: If no free grant, I'll pay for this as personnal Quake fan support to your project. Will you keep a collector copy of the book for me?... ;)
Hmm Errr
#110 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/03/07 20:26:47
well the idea what that ALL the copies are to be collector suitable. because since it's print to order (until i remove it from the site that is) there isn't any legitimate way to increase the value of a book, unless I were to then reupload it with content stripped out... which is kind of lame. hehe
thanks for the offer on the fonts. I actually have those :D
Fonts...
#111 posted by metlslime [204.15.3.5] on 2007/03/07 20:59:56
those are nice. I've been trying to find some fonts that have a classic personality, but almost all free fonts on the web seem to be flashy logo fonts, and lack subtlety. (They are "display fonts" as pope says.)
These are also nice in how many are instantly recognizable from old newspapers, old books, etc.
Thoughts And Concerns
#112 posted by Kinn [86.147.135.242] on 2007/03/07 21:38:10
ok, i've given this thread another read prior to posting this, but sorry if this has already been covered.
My main concern is with the focus of the book as an "art" book. It seems likely that the majority of the content is going to be screenshots of community made Quake 1 maps. This is fine, but (and I'm really not trying to sound like a snob here), I don't think this concept is terribly useful in a book on game environment art, in 2007. It would make much more sense to treat the book as a retro study on the games and engines of a decade ago, what they meant, why they were so important, and why there still exists such a great active community making interesting levels for them - the book would then act as a way of showcasing these levels and the "art" would be put in its proper context (in all its low-poly, 8-bit palleted glory).
Well It's Worth Keeping In Mind That
#113 posted by bambuz [213.169.4.41] on 2007/03/07 21:56:16
computer art (like games and other stuff too) moves so fast that ~all books are obsolete immediately in a few years... so it's no shame to be "obsolete" already when coming out. :)
It'd perhaps be possible to have one page explaining the limitations and techniques of quake, you know, showing a few small wireframes, one from the editor four view perhaps. And one from the map.. and maybe the rendering steps like texturing and lightmap too... Just a thought.
Don't painting or photography books have some small stuff about the artist(s) too and the techniques and equipment and way of working and all that. The history too.
Maybe...
#114 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2007/03/07 22:03:03
... some chronological explanations about the game, how he looked like in 1996, what are the progress of the engines, of the tools, of the editors, then present what mappers are able to do nowadays, with their best maps...
A Cover Idea:
#115 posted by bear [80.217.113.98] on 2007/03/07 23:52:14
A slipgate (that teleports you into the worlds contained inside).
And now over to something completely different - what's the actual legal status of putting a book up for sale with prints of screenshots from a game with copyrighted assets (textures and models and so on...)?
Printing Of Copyrighted Assets
#116 posted by inertia [134.53.176.37] on 2007/03/08 02:11:50
Well, magazines printed pictures of quake levels didn't they?
Kinn, Lets Face It
#117 posted by Mr Fribbles [202.161.117.131] on 2007/03/08 02:24:46
The contributors are the audience. I definitely see your point but I would doubt anybody would be expecting anyone outside the quake scene to be interested in this.
Inertia:
#118 posted by metlslime [204.15.3.5] on 2007/03/08 03:24:54
I sometimes wonder about that. Do commercial game mags actually post original screenshots, or do they just use the ones from the press kit?
I'd like to think that a screenshot of a copyrighted game or level is fair use, but I wish there was more of a precedent for it.
It's A Good Issue To Raise
#119 posted by Kinn [86.128.225.218] on 2007/03/08 12:19:21
And now over to something completely different - what's the actual legal status of putting a book up for sale with prints of screenshots from a game with copyrighted assets (textures and models and so on...)?
And what about screenshots of levels that themselves illegally use assets from other games? I'll admit I was pretty naïve when I made marcher - other than the Quake3 textures, there's quite a few sounds and meshes in there that I "borrowed" from other games. Oops. :{
Magazines
#120 posted by bambuz [130.233.243.229] on 2007/03/08 13:26:27
take screenshots themselves, at least Pelit-lehti takes. (They had a story on the 15 year anniversary about article making in the last issue)
Screenshots
#121 posted by ijed [190.82.48.117] on 2007/03/08 13:55:28
Are pretty much free reign - you can take an image / photo of just about anything you like. Where the control comes from is when the publisher sends the magazine / webpage carefully selected pictures from the 100 or so the developer has sent them. I've never heard of these being doctored, but it wouldn't suprise me. /end ramble.
There may be subtlies I'm missing but I'm pretty sure Pope's almost 100% legal proof on the content. Someone might want to file suit over a stolen texture or model but honestly, who would bother?
Bit Of An Fyi
#122 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/03/19 14:56:58
in accordance with my planned timeline. I'll be starting to contact some of the participating mappers in regards to the individual pages. I wont really be doing this in any set order so if you don't hear anything, your time will come. Don't feel left out. :D
Again, if you haven't signed on yet and would like to. Please fire me an email at brushworkart@lgmail.com and include your full name and nickname so I can get you into my spreadsheet of joy.
Question:
#123 posted by metlslime [204.15.3.5] on 2007/03/19 19:29:06
how big should our portraits be, and would you prefer we take them in front of a light or dark background. Also, my bio is about 1200 words long -- is this too short or can we just make my portrait bigger to fill in space?
#124 posted by MaTi [195.254.156.94] on 2007/03/20 23:20:42
at last I found that damn topic...
I red all the posts and I see it's very good :)
"what's the actual legal status of putting a book up for sale with prints of screenshots from a game with copyrighted assets"
I think it is the same thing when you are putting screenshots on your page. as it's finished game (it's not stolen and published as from leaks) you can put those screens whereever you want. btw. we don't have 'bad intentions' by including those screens so noone should be mad at us ;)
I also suggest not adding age but date of birth
Or Year Of Birth
#125 posted by MaTi [195.254.156.94] on 2007/03/20 23:22:36
if someone don't want to publish such informations ;)
So When Did This Become A Quake1 Only Book?
#126 posted by Lunaran [70.226.144.214] on 2007/03/21 07:55:05
I thought the book was about brushes.
Metlslime
#127 posted by gone [87.249.61.2] on 2007/03/21 12:11:12
wins
Quake 1 Only....
#128 posted by pjw [67.129.250.254] on 2007/03/21 15:58:28
I think people are confused. I thought it had been clear from the start that the book was going to be about level design (not even necessarily just Quake-series-related level design).
pope, correct us if we're wrong. :)
(And if it's just Q1, count me out--I've never even made a Q1 map...)
Pjw
#129 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2007/03/21 16:29:38
I've never even made a Q1 map
Shame on you...:P
Gotta Say...
#130 posted by cheshire [124.182.139.107] on 2007/03/21 17:48:13
This sounds fantastic. I have sent through an email to the address and I really hope that this project gets off the ground.
Now, if only I could find my signed-by-iD Quake 2 Extremities box... then I could then have two things by which to justify the countless hours of neglecting my friends and family so that I could stare deep into Worldcraft's interface while sitting in a dimly lit room.
:D
Burp
#131 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/03/21 18:08:11
pjw (and others)
all 3d shooter games are welcome. The reason its so heavily Quake focused is obviously due to my ties with the community. I do have a couple non quake contributers so far. But would encourage more.
Once I have more to show, I will recirculate a lot more diligently to other communities in an effort to get more variety.
That reminds me. Age won't be included, i nixed that idea a while ago. However the games one maps for perhaps is a wiser idea, and far more relevant.
chesire: welcome, so glad to see an old face show up from the woodwork!
#132 posted by MaTi [195.254.156.94] on 2007/03/21 20:19:19
how about including comments from other mappers/review writers
Good Idea
#133 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2007/03/21 21:14:08
For Quake map: there is Underwolrdfan's website at http://underworld.planetquake.game...
#134 posted by MaTi [195.254.156.94] on 2007/03/21 21:58:29
also you can look on MPQ for some nice pieces of text expressing map style/feel...
Ew
#135 posted by Spirit [80.171.29.133] on 2007/03/21 22:09:40
I want to see the brushwork. Not read what others thing about it.
No Reviews Please
#136 posted by gone [87.249.61.2] on 2007/03/22 09:25:45
They dont describe the brushwork much (if at all). Dont shift the focus
Pope
#137 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2007/05/20 09:40:20
Regarding the "schedule" given on your website, you should be, more or less, in the latest steps of your editing process... Could you give us any feedback please ? What is the status as of today ? I ask just because I'm curious ;)
Yeah, Schedule...
#138 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/05/21 07:05:59
book landed on the backburned with some delays in contacting a few of the first people. It's still active, but with a few other things on the menu, combined with my A.D.D. it's been stalled a bit. There HAS been work done, but nothing really worthwhile updating things with.
I'm still looking for a decent typeface that's affordable. Last one I liked was $600 ... i must have expensive taste.
Pope
#139 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2007/05/21 08:46:02
I'm glad to see things are going forward: I thought a minute the project has been canceled ;)
I'll stay tuned and I'll look forward for new post from you here, in order to keep informed !
Keep it up !
It Shant Be Canceled...
#140 posted by pope [154.20.171.226] on 2007/05/23 07:02:42
unless i die.
so there's a 50/50 chance
Humpty Bumpty
#141 posted by Lunaran [76.204.101.91] on 2007/07/31 06:38:52
I wanna see my name in print
Lunaran:
#142 posted by metlslime [71.202.113.29] on 2007/07/31 07:49:13
you mean in a context that doesn't involve Dave Matthews and a bus and a bridge?
I Don't Think He Was Ever Namechecked In Those Articles
#143 posted by pope [154.20.146.75] on 2007/07/31 08:25:59
Sorry lads, I know there's no good 'real' reason for lack of news. I'm just getting my life back onto some solid ground. It's no excuse, just a reason for my ineptitude.
Pope
#144 posted by JPL [213.30.139.243] on 2007/07/31 08:34:02
You don't have to give any excuses for that: real life is more important than our "virtual" life here. So it is not ineptitude, it is just management of priority: we all know that very well ;)
ROFL
#145 posted by DaZ [80.41.154.226] on 2007/07/31 17:14:34
@ #142
That still makes me laugh even today :)
Pope ?
#146 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2007/12/11 18:58:48
How things are going on your side ? Any news to share ?
#147 posted by M. [81.219.236.138] on 2008/01/25 19:33:37
doh, pope will not made it i guess...
maybe I can continue his idea?
#148 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2008/01/25 20:00:19
I was just looking at this the other day. I would buy this book instantly if it ever got finished.
:(
#149 posted by M. [90.156.126.189] on 2009/01/01 17:14:00
dead topic? :(
#150 posted by Willem [75.177.185.17] on 2009/01/01 17:34:10
Yeah, I was really hoping this would go somewhere. :-/
So...
#151 posted by M. [90.156.126.189] on 2009/01/03 01:41:50
so I can continue that idea. It's not a problem for me to prepare pages for printing, I'll watch for some cheap book printers and when I'll have more details I'll inform you all.
Tip
#152 posted by megaman [92.73.82.124] on 2009/01/03 13:07:16
I'll watch for some cheap book printers
Hide your stiffy, or they might feel offended.
#153 posted by M. [90.156.126.189] on 2009/01/03 20:42:33
sure, and quality it more important than very low prize.

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