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Posted by Mindcrime [69.37.76.92] on 2004/01/25 19:49:40

Howdy, folks, it's Mindcrime.
The Nehahra dude.
As my development of Obscurus is going to begin again very shortly (after a looooong hiatus), I am left with a choice of which engine to build Obscurus off of. I am not keen on working with an engine coder to make Obscurus's own special engine. I'd rather avoid this potential (and probable) headache.
I am not interested in having any additional engine effects. I can do a lot on my own from the progs.dat side.
I have narrowed the engines down to two choices:
A) The Nehahra Engine & Darkplaces
I would build it off the nehahra.exe for my own use, but in the end, of course, it would run off darkplaces as well ((with or without the -nehahra parameter I'm not sure)).
So this gives people two choices. Nehahra.exe or Darkplaces.exe ... seems accomodating.
--OR--
B) Fitzquake - this appears, at least to me, to be the favored engine of mappers...
__
Any input from you mappers/sorry-saps-who-will-end-up... would be appreciated.
Danke :P

D'oh
#1 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.76.92] on 2004/01/25 19:50:55
That was "sorry saps who will end up playing the damned thing eventually" . . . .
FitzQuake
#2 posted by Scragbait [65.92.13.121] on 2004/01/25 20:21:54
I've been happy playing FitzQuake. I haven't tried Darkplaces.
Hot Damn!
#3 posted by Head Thump [65.140.55.110] on 2004/01/25 21:48:09
CZG has released a new map and MindCrime has emmerged from the shadows all within the same day.
As for the question, this is my two cents - if you are going for the Old School classic Quake look and feel, FitzQuake is the way to go. If you are making a more modern looking game that at the very least keeps up with the high standards Nehahra has imposed upon us, Dark Places is the way to go.
The proper comparison for Dark Places is not FitzQuake which is a good Quake Build and the only real choice for playing classic levels on, no the proper comparison is the Doom 3 engine. The Doom Engine can handle up to 6 real time lighting sources within a given sector, DP handles 30. Also DP can handle 64k entities per map, and sizes larger than what is expected for Half-Life 2.
It is doubtful that the mappers you recruit will need all of that, but from my own experience with my own DP mod in development the maps I'm making average about 4 times the size of a Quake map equivalant, and I am not even trying to do anything but make modest, Quake oriented maps. It is just I don't have to really think about the constraints that normally come in to play. Though this has been detrimental to my normal methods of mapping (hence the three week delay on my turtle map).
Will Obscurus be as machinima oriented as Nehahra?
Machinima Oriented
#4 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.76.92] on 2004/01/25 22:36:24
Uhhh, in a word: NO :)
Whatever cinematics (if there are) will be brief and to the point ...
Fitzquake
#5 posted by Vondur [217.70.16.165] on 2004/01/26 01:47:09
Fitzquake
;)
Heh
#6 posted by underworldfan [128.195.64.98] on 2004/01/26 01:55:25
dont bother with cinematics.
mindcrime, i dont know if you in/out the loop regarding the recent quake 1 maps, but i should at least make you aware of my website, which has been up for about 14 months now.
http://www.planetquake.com/underwo...
its great to hear obscurus is still in development, my personal opinion is nehahra is the best ever quake custom episode[s].
i look forward to obscurus reaching the same high quality, although i know its still going to be a long road to the actual release at this point. :)
#7 posted by Scampie [216.220.241.97] on 2004/01/26 08:31:52
Fitzquake, no one wants colored lights and ugly effects when playing q1 except for q3 players.
My 3 Cents
#8 posted by MisYu [213.76.244.129] on 2004/01/26 08:57:00
FitzQuake is the key, although, hey scampie, I do want colored lights and some ugly effects (except watching your nick ;>) when playing q1 :)
Anyway, fitzquake is my fav atm.
Fitzquake
#9 posted by Levelworm [61.173.215.165] on 2004/01/26 09:08:50
get a vote for its original taste
#10 posted by glassman [217.154.195.213] on 2004/01/26 09:19:41
I am not interested in having any additional engine effects
I think by saying that (and asking here ;)) you already know the answer to your question.
Personally I like both and I think some of the character of Nehahra came from the engine. Obviously though its the maps, monsters, sounds etc that really define such a project.
I can't remember if fitzquake has the 255 bmodel & 600 entity limits removed (or is that tyrquake?); if not it wuld be nice if at least those could be modified away :)
An Angle Of Perspective / Something To Note
#11 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.11.230] on 2004/01/26 09:40:35
I've appreciated all the postings so far and hope more people put their 2 cents in.
There is one other thing to consider here. Nehahra was a Partial Conversion. Obscurus looks to be a Total Conversion. Basically, it's own game and very close to being that. There's a lot of aspects of the quake 'atmosphere' and feel I would like to adopt, but ... it's not entirely necessary, being a new game, to preserve 100% of the Quake-iness. So while the occasional colored dynamic light might not look overly good when fighting in classic quake maps ... Obscurus might be okay. Then again, it might not. I'm not advocating the use of any one engine or any particular effect ...
I'm just pointing out that you have more creative room with a TC ... (most TCs will take this legroom and use it to fuck things up, but let's hope the community has a little faith in me :> )
So far it looks like there are more votes for fitzquake :) Only 10 posts so far though.
Keep 'em comin'
FitzQuake S'il Vous Plait.
#12 posted by czg [80.202.31.45] on 2004/01/26 09:52:27
...what the frenchie said
GLQuake
#13 posted by spentron [171.75.57.116] on 2004/01/26 10:15:29
I got nasty flashing lava on Fitz. Either allow almost anything or use something with higher quality or higher quality mode. Or test like hell.
Just A Note
#14 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.235.190] on 2004/01/26 12:01:49
I do believe FitzQuake supports colored lighting in maps through .lit files.
As spentron said, if you're not going to use any special engine effects, why not support every engine? Then you'd get the software Quakers as well.
But then if you're looking for an engine to help add a special flare (and not lense flares, I hope) then DarkPlaces is probably the engine for you. But I should say that I use FitzQuake for playing Quake, as it is really a great no-frills high-thrills engine.
I Would Say Fitzquake
#15 posted by necros [66.185.84.208] on 2004/01/26 13:11:36
but i don't unilaterally say no to colored lighting. it's cool sometimes. but that's the farthest i'd go...
oh well, you could also bump the edict limit too. :D
Effects
#16 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.11.230] on 2004/01/26 13:37:58
To clarify...
What I MEANT was that I'm not interesting in any new engine with features which are newer or snazzier than what is currently standard ... meaning, I don't need an engine with more features than Nehahra.exe or whatever ...
I still love skyboxes and fog and all that jazz ... :)
Heh
#17 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.11.230] on 2004/01/26 14:07:01
I'm not INTERESTED
I may not be interesting either, that's a matter of interpretation.
Yaaaa, I'm bawwr-i-i-i-ng guyy, sit around n scrape dead skin off my feet all day while I'm drink-u-u-u-n Peej Soda and wearin a s-o-o-o-mbrer-o-o ... I'm on a Mexicaan, whoa oh, rad-e-e-e-O ...
I Vote For Nehahra/DP
#18 posted by grahf [192.154.65.1] on 2004/01/26 15:54:45
As a mapper, Nehahra is pretty close to my perfectly ideal engine in terms of features/effects added. i.e., tons of new entity functionality, but only minimal and tasteful graphical enhancements (If it had .lit, I'd be set for life. high quality textures I don't care for, they ruin the thematic consistency of quake. all those lovely shades of brown, yum)
So, I sorta vote for Neh/DP, but if you can make Fitzquake kick as much ass as Neh did, then go for it.
Also
#19 posted by grahf [192.154.65.1] on 2004/01/26 15:56:32
there is already a Mac port of the Nehahra engine, so going that route nets you more potential players (and yes there are a few mac users that lurk these boards)
Fitzquake, Bitte
#20 posted by Goetzenzar [62.226.137.15] on 2004/01/26 18:15:58
fitzquake!
I Thought Nehahra Was Good
#21 posted by nitin [128.250.6.244] on 2004/01/26 20:38:01
I liked the skyboxes and fog too. Colored lighting's dangerous, but it can work when done peoperly.
I used to like darkplaces but now it runs too slow on my system and with the lack of documentation, it's a bitch to turn a lot of the features off.
As for fitzquake, it's not really a new engine as such so use it if you're going for the classic quake feel. I love the software emulated gl lighting, but personally wish it had model interpolation as I'm too used to the smooth animation to go back to the standard jerky stuff.
...
#22 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.19.229] on 2004/01/26 20:48:08
Well, there is also another side to this. Chances are ... if it's built to run on Fitzquake, it will also run on other engines as there are not a lot of Fitzquake-specific things that other engines don't have that would cause a crash. Err, if you know what I mean.
I could just as easily get the same progs.dat to run all three engines ... those who like certain effects such as (just for an example) dynamic colored light (i.e. the gaunt boomerangs) can play it in Nehahra and see it, while it simply won't be there in fitz. Same with subtle use of transparent effects and other stuff. I can have the code check to see what engine is running quite easily too.
There's something to think about. Make it compatible to all three, hence pleasing the largest amount of people :D
#23 posted by Mapist [195.208.123.213] on 2004/01/27 04:00:18
Im against fitzquake - it doesnt have animation interpolation and all monsters movements look jerky and fragmented.
I suggest you decide what features u want/need and just use an engine that accomodates.
AFAIK only nehara exe suports mod music (s3m, xm) and good ambient tracks enhance the atmosphere of a game.
Repeated From IRC:
#24 posted by metlslime [66.135.128.76] on 2004/01/27 04:51:49
I like the idea of not requiring any specific engine, and instead just using the enhancements that are standard across engines.
Fs
#25 posted by LTH [144.32.128.13] on 2004/01/27 19:20:11
DarkPlaces, bitch. It's just better*.
* when it works
Just A Thought
#26 posted by DaZ [212.159.60.58] on 2004/01/28 03:47:59
but darkplaces can load q3 bsps. Im not saying that yay we all use 3 pass shaders for everything and make it crap but mappers would certainly get more freedom with the q3bsp map support. Though this wont be 100% compatible with other engines so bah :/
Good to know the project is moving forwards though, looking forward to it!
Dont remove the cutscenes! The nehahra cutscnes were great! I managed to watch the entire seal of nehahra, yeah it was too long =) but very interresting none the less.
And err, I think I speak for everyone when I say "Bring back teh ph1l!" :D
Darkplaces
#27 posted by Vermeulen [24.78.144.151] on 2004/01/28 05:43:54
I'd say if your going to use darkplaces, use its features as much as possible. Q3bsp, maybe some realtime lights, MD3 models, etc. Why does it matter if it won't run on all engines if it is a standalone game?
Why Not Just Do The Whole Thing In Q3 Then?
#28 posted by LTH [144.32.128.13] on 2004/01/28 10:09:06
nt
Well . . .
#29 posted by Head Thump [65.140.54.202] on 2004/01/28 11:32:21
'Why Not Just Do The Whole Thing In Q3 Then?'
1) DarkPlaces is a more advanced engine that clocks better on Q3 material (bsp, md3) than Q3.
2) Programming in QuakeC or MindCrimes Pascal Hybrid is a piece of cake compared to programming for Quake Arena.
3) you take all commercial considerations out as a factor. A total conversion would cost the end user nothing except in the time to download.
4) in my sujective opinion there appears to be more activity these days in the Quake scene than the Quake 3 scene.
4.)...
#30 posted by xen [82.32.34.150] on 2004/01/28 13:48:15
That's pretty much solely based upon this board I'll bet. :-)
He, He, Score One For Xen
#31 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.193] on 2004/01/28 14:19:15
Well, if you include Urban Terror, Generations Arena and the rest of the team based mod community in the argument, I am waayyy, wayyy, off base, but for vanilla Q3 Arena, I've noticed a drop off of activity in forums and play.
Because
#32 posted by necros [63.139.106.197] on 2004/01/28 15:12:35
making a q3sp game will go the way of CF. :P
you'd have to make AI pretty much from scratch which would probably take a long time.
Q3
#33 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.17.37] on 2004/01/28 17:14:51
Don't bother arguing that one ...
Really ...
I don't do Q3. It's bad for you :P
#34 posted by Scampie [66.231.199.96] on 2004/01/28 17:30:18
Mindcrime: So is smoking... ;P
...
#35 posted by underworldfan [128.195.64.98] on 2004/01/28 17:50:22
yes, it should be self-evident as mindcrime says.
for a single player project of this nature;
Q1 is 1000 times > Q3.
Welll....
#36 posted by necros [63.139.106.197] on 2004/01/28 21:57:43
q3 does have all the cool engine things like hint and detail (and caulk) and such... i don't know if it's possible, but if it is, and seeing as this is a tc, you could try to code that into the q1 engine... but i don't know anything about that.
It Should
#37 posted by pope [64.114.31.11] on 2004/01/28 22:39:52
be able to run on 8mb of ram..
thats the important part
Me And My One Trick Pony
#38 posted by HeadThump [65.141.72.196] on 2004/01/29 00:14:24
'... i don't know if it's possible, but if it is, and seeing as this is a tc, you could try to code that into the q1 engine'
Dark Places, man. Ydnars q3map2 can autocaulk the hell out of a map.
BTW
#39 posted by HeadThump [65.140.55.100] on 2004/01/29 01:33:45
Before this leads to a pointless off topic discussion, I realize the phrase I threw out 'autocaulk' can cause some confusion (since it was made up off the cuff, so to speak, by, errrr, me).
Caulking with Q3map2 involves areaportals, antiportals and other brushes that are specific to Q3map2, and is not done as implied, 'automatically'.
I was referring to the -meta function which decomposes brushes and then regroups them more effeciently than is done by other means. Not actually caulking but it does increase a maps performance nevertheless, and who isn't for increased performance, eh?
Obscurus Website
#40 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.76.96] on 2004/01/30 00:52:00
I've updated the Obscurus website. Though if you happened to see it before, you won't see much new ...
http://www.planetquake.com/nehahra...
I think it needs different graphics, more in line with the feel of Obscurus, and ...
well Nightmare Interactive sounds lame ...
However simple and to the point!
The Infomation Page
#41 posted by Vermeulen [24.78.144.151] on 2004/01/30 06:40:49
"Finally (for now), there will be those who cannot conceive of why someone would build a game on the Quake engine as there are so many more "advanced" engines to choose from. This, fundamentally, is an artistic choice. "
I don't understand this at all. The engine has nothing to do with the art unless your using quake1 or another games content. I wouldn't suggest using realtime lights, because I understand you don't want that plastic feel. But there are still many many reasons to use an engine like darkplaces. Darkplaces runs levels faster, better with newer hardware, and tons of other great features which have nothing to do with eyecandy (scripted menus, video switching, md3 model tags, etc). With a better engine you can increase the gameplay by having much bigger levels, much more monsters and such possible. It doesn't have to be all eyecandy.
Artistic Choice
#42 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.9.128] on 2004/01/30 08:13:05
A lot of the site content was written 2 years ago :P
However, what engine you choose to build on *is* an artistic choice. And the word 'art' is a broad term that covers more than just the literal artwork. Whether you draw what you wish to express, or sculpt it in clay, is an artistic choice. What kind of clay you use is an artistic choice. If you draw it, what pencils or paper you use, or what paint and canvas you use, and etc, is an artistic choice. Whether you wish to tell a story with a book or a screenplay, or a cartoon or machinima or clay-mation or a movie, is a fookin' artistic choice. :P Whatever means of expression you use to convey what is in your mind to other people is an artistic choice.
In short: Bite me.
:)
No Obscurus Website
#43 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.9.128] on 2004/01/30 08:45:44
Second thought. Fuggit. I backed it up and deleted it. It's better not to have a site for now. Better to wait until the development is at a stage where I'm ready to bring other people in. Besides, I don't want to feel obligated to keep updating the site during my development ... and it will only serve to draw annoying emails besides :P
Darkplaces
#44 posted by MisYu [213.76.244.129] on 2004/01/30 11:26:35
The funniest thing with Darkplaces is it completely doesn't work on my system (duron1000, 256mbddr333, gf2mx440 (with new drivers)), so it would be kinda sucky not to be able to play Obscurus if Mindy sticks himself to Darkplaces ;)
Hurrah For Mindcrime!
#45 posted by DaMaul [81.77.161.98] on 2004/01/30 15:06:43
I reckon the choice of engine isn't too important as long as the final product can be distributed standalone, with no need for the original quake to be installed whatsoever.
Vermeulen
#46 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.39] on 2004/01/31 21:38:47
'I wouldn't suggest using realtime lights, because I understand you don't want that plastic feel.'
That infamous look that we all experienced when we fired up Tenebrae the first time comes from the odd fact that engine defaults with every texture getting a full gloss pass. It isn't a real problem with real time lighting, just a poor design and aesthetic choice of the Tenebrae team. For a better fix on what well done RTS would look like, I would recommend the Dues Ex Invisible War screen shots.
Yeah
#47 posted by necros [63.139.106.197] on 2004/01/31 21:41:03
you can have dynamic lights without the gloss effect. it could be cool too. industri uses tenebrae and it's pretty awesome in terms of lighting...
Hey Mindcrime
#48 posted by Tronyn [24.78.146.107] on 2004/02/02 03:34:41
I'd just like to take this oppurtunity to express what an amazing, astounding, unbelievably awesome piece of work the Seal Of Nehahra was :)
I don't actually have any suggestions for this thread, I just wanted to say that.
Yeah
#49 posted by DaZ [212.159.60.58] on 2004/02/02 14:57:34
thumbs up for cut scenes!
SON was awesome, yes it was bloody long but the story was great! Even if you just did an hour story (heh, "only" an hour!) that would be great.
I'm
#50 posted by Tronyn [24.78.146.107] on 2004/02/02 16:15:28
not even suggesting that you repeat making a cinematic feature for Obscurus, or even that you use cut-scenes at all. I'm just saying Seal of Nehahra kicked so much ass it's unbelievable, no strings attached =)
Only Problem With Seal Of Nehahra...
#51 posted by xen [82.32.34.150] on 2004/02/02 17:03:13
...was that it was better than Nehahra ;-)
Xen, That's A Ballsy Thing To Say,
#52 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.132] on 2004/02/02 17:21:27
given the Func_borders involved in that project. I must say though, individual levels were better than the sum of the game.
Tronyn, MindCrime is still considered a God over on the Machinima forums. He is sort of the Thomas Pynchon of game cinematography. An excellent, but mysterious artist (I'm not so much kissing butt as I am trying to nudge him towards making another movie -- okay I'm kissing butt).
I Don't Think
#53 posted by necros [63.139.106.197] on 2004/02/02 17:35:44
it should matter who is involved. if xen truly believes that the movie was better than the game, than he should be able to say it.
i've never seen the movie, but i don't think nehahra was the greatest mod out there. it was really good, and is awesome because of it's size, but i liked Zer a lot more because of it's atmosphere and the general feel of the maps in there. (and the fact that you don't really win) just because alot of great mappers were involved in nehahra and mindcrime was responsible for it doens't make me shy to say what i think.
Hm.
#54 posted by xen [82.32.34.150] on 2004/02/02 18:11:52
The thing that spoiled Nehahra for me was the lack of consistency throughout the game. Most of the maps were individually great but not all of them fitted together that well imho. Plus I couldn't get used to the modified gameplay (ie. the monster strafing annoyed the hell out of me). That's just my opinion though; some share it, some don't. I preffered Zer also.
The movie however really is an undisputed object of beauty. I enjoyed it more than most 'real' movies.
Anyway... this thread isn't about Nehahra :-p
Yep, We've Slipped OT A Bit
#55 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.254] on 2004/02/02 18:44:43
but just wanted to make clear, 'ballsy' is a positive quality, not a negative one.
Depends If You're Talking To An LA Street Gang Or Not
#56 posted by starbuck [82.33.90.202] on 2004/02/02 19:47:24
if you are, being ballsy enough to call them apes in oversized jeans is a negative factor
Ah!
#57 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.254] on 2004/02/02 19:58:34
You have a point there. When I think of ballsy, I think of my pappy with his regulation crew cut walking up to the leader of a bike gang asking him for a light. Could've been negative. For the gang.
Actually
#58 posted by Tronyn [24.78.146.107] on 2004/02/02 20:40:08
I agree with xen, that the movie was better than the game for Nehahra. I also had the same issues; frustrating gameplay and lack of coherence among the maps. I'd even go further to say some of the maps were not individually great. I think OUM for example had a higher quality average map than Nehahra, and had more coherence in terms of progression and overall feel among the maps. Insomnia is another good example of an episode done better than Nehahra SP.
But Seal Of Nehahra.... I worship it.
Tronyn
#59 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.254] on 2004/02/02 21:01:16
Have you considered using cinematics in your project to the degree they were used in Nehahra?
Och!
#60 posted by MisYu [213.76.244.129] on 2004/02/03 00:11:26
And I hated Seal of Nehahra, but liked the mod very much. And tweaked monster AI was excellent. The only thing I disliked in Nehahra was that maps weren't connected to one another, but overall, this was the mod from top shelf.
Soul of Evil was cool! Gratz for Tronyn!
Headthump
#61 posted by Tronyn [24.78.146.107] on 2004/02/03 00:38:54
erm, No. I wouldn't ever attempt something that ambitious myself; Mindcrime deserves every bit of praise he gets and then some for successfully pulling off such a cinematic approach in Q1.
I once considered a project which would have utilized cinematics, the storyline for that is in the arcane wizard thread, but it floundered due to lack of support and when I brought it back in its current form, it was more of a "just make a good map" thing.
which is pretty much my thing too right now; I just want to make massive maps and that's pretty much the limit of my ambition :)
MisYu: Thanks for the compliment. Looking back on SoE there were a lot of things I could have done better, but I didn't really know what I was doing as a project leader and though I thought I was holding off release a lot at the time, I now think I rushed it out the door before a lot of little things that would have added up to a lot could be added.
I Liked Both Rapture And OUM
#62 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.19] on 2004/02/03 01:08:32
Rapture was thick in atmosphere and beautiful texture/brush work and OUM had some interesting ideas and flowed together well. I remember e-mailing FC praise on OUM long before I started coming to func_.
I was part of a machinima team for most of last year, but it fell a part due to the sound guy (a very talented Austin based musician) quiting to get married and start a family. I wrote the screen play, designed the sets, and reskinned the zombies as the characters (a bunch of junkies).
Ultimately, mapping is an easier preoccupation.
Tronyn!
#63 posted by MisYu(work) [80.55.110.78] on 2004/02/03 03:54:43
It is obvious, that you can polish up everything you do, however often we don't have enough (enought?) time or eyes to see everything. Anyway, Soul of Evil is cool and stop kicking yourself, the atmosphere (especially when two fiends approached in the dark canyon) rocked, I really liked your mod, respect.
Another Thing!
#64 posted by MisYu(work) [80.55.110.78] on 2004/02/03 03:59:06
Och, and talking about mods, maybe it's kinda weird, but I don't call czg07 or some of Kona's releases as mods. Yeah, there are multimaps within, there is modified stuff, but overall, for me, big mod, big pack, big conversion is something with:
- long storyline
- big playarea (lots of maps/episodes)
Not only 2-3 maps included + stuff.
So, I think that OUM, SoE, Nehahra, Zerstoerer, Malice, Armagon, DoE, Beyond Belief, Alien Quake and other "big ones" should be trackted (is that a word?) as mods and packs.
MisYu
#65 posted by Vondur [62.181.40.126] on 2004/02/03 04:42:29
it would be 'treated' ;)
Hmm ...
#66 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.16.245] on 2004/02/03 16:49:36
Well, I don't know that I'd be jumping to do any more feature-length quake movies. Though, just between you and me, if some coder out there were to look at the Nehahra source and figure out what's wrong with the PAUSEDEMO feature ... and fix it ... and compile an EXE ... and send it to me to use ...
Welll, you never know. I might be persuaded to do ... well, something or other. Otherwise, the engine which Seal of Nehahra was made on is gone ... poof. There's a chance there's a Nehahra mapper out there still has old versions of the engine, and that one of those old versions might be the right one ... but that's a small chance.
Thanks for the compliments on Seal of Nehahra, though I don't know if it's worthy of such praise. Maybe as the creator when I watch it, I don't see the good things ... I only see the bad and what could have been done better.
((Actually the fact that I did a 4 hour movie in Quake seems a bit crazy in retrospect ... well, more than A BIT ...))
As for engines, I understand many lean toward Fitzquake ... however, unless it supports transparency (which metlslime may or may not be up for, that is, to do it properly) ... the prognosis on that isn't good. No, it's not the transparency on the brushes (i.e. for glass) that I care that much about ... but using it for other things ((one example would be the Nehahra Wraiths))...
Btw, you're all welcome to blabber about Nehahra here. Considering Obscurus may end up being a kinda-sorta quasi-sequel type thing ...
In other news, I did find a nehahra.exe with a fixed HUD that Ender did for me ... I never released it because the Sprite 32s were broken in it, but I forgot about the nospr32 cvar which reverts the quake explosions to the normal sprites ... and that ain't so bad ... I do rather despise the weak smoke trails in Nehahra though ... which Ender never fixed :|
- - - - - - - - - - -- - -- - -
I have 3 main Quake related things going:
A) Looking to overhaul/improve Nehahra.
This involves code fixes, some AI alterations, improvements in many of the func_'s ...
B) Obscurus
C) A teeny pet project in my quake/nehrev directory. This isn't what I call a totally serious project, or a big deal whatsoever, but a fun added extra ... perhaps ... If I release it when it's done, it will be a pretty small download ... just a big fat progs.dat file ... You start in Neh2m6.bsp and work your way backwards through the levels to Forge City :D Maps the same, entities and functions different, a lot of stuff "rewired" ... Anyway, it could be fun. I'm only one map into that. I just finished Neh2m6.bsp :>
Things I sometimes think about:
A) A purely PHIL movie ... :D Now this would be FUN ... it would not be work. Seal of Nehahra was largely work. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy ...
B) Neh4mX - Fourth and final episode, though I harbor great doubts there would be much interest from mappers to make it ((I have no doubt there will be interest from players to play it ... that's the silly thing :> ))
Single Player / Deathmatch
#67 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.16.245] on 2004/02/03 17:55:56
Here's another thing to think about ... I remember when I came to this point in Nehahra too. Should Obscurus support Coop and Deathmatch? Are those two things cool? Sure. Will more than a handful of people even play those modes?
My current thoughts: multiplayer prolly ain't worth it ... and when you eliminate multiplayer and make it strictly Single Player ... welll, you have a LOT more legroom and have the ability to do things you otherwise couldn't.
Thoughts?
Well
#68 posted by Tronyn [24.78.146.107] on 2004/02/03 18:59:26
it seems to me like cinematics are the only problem for including coop. Coop gameplay doesn't have to be supported (not like you have to have extra monsters or items for coop or something), but it's pretty easy to *allow* players to play sp with more than 1 player, and maybe code in an option that makes monsters respawn once or something to make it harder. Another potential option that'd be easy to implement is players spawning further into the level after passing certain checkpoints (like 5 minutes work). I like coop, personally.
On dm, I think that's more the mapper's decision. If mappers don't mind trying to make maps that'll play well in DM as well as SP, then great - especially if there's new weapons.
Mindcrime
#69 posted by underworldfan [128.195.84.154] on 2004/02/03 19:27:55
You start in Neh2m6.bsp and work your way backwards through the levels to Forge City
are you joking or serious?
Heh
#70 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.16.245] on 2004/02/03 21:30:08
Yes, I'm serious ... As I'm already fine-tuning the neh2m6.bsp code for Nehrev and have played it dozens of times, I think it's quite fun. Fun would be the point.
Now if you're asking if this is something that should be taken serious to the same magnitude as a full map-pack release, probably not. Same maps. Different situations.
It should be taken as something fun you can download (with little to no downloading time) and burn some time with :>
If I get ambitious, I might hardcode in an in-level cutscene or two :D Might even throw a little story into it :>
Mindcrime
#71 posted by HeadThump [65.140.55.175] on 2004/02/04 17:02:55
((I have no doubt there will be interest from players to play it ... that's the silly thing :> ))
I'm curious, how many players, in a rough estimate, would that be, and if you are looking also to update Nehahra how many players would an independent Nehahra pak (like say a Megawad) attract?
Assuming, Of Course,
#72 posted by HeadThump [65.140.55.175] on 2004/02/04 17:04:09
it was a well done pak.
Hmm
#73 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.78.225] on 2004/02/04 21:45:39
Actually it's a very debatable subject. I had a good feel for what the Quake scene was like 3-4 years ago. Now, not so. I can only really speculate. I can tell you that I *still* get a fair amount of Nehahra email. I can tell you that's easy to see that the Quake 1 community still lives, while the Quake 2 community is dying an appropriately stinky death ... if Doom 3 has decent deathmatch, Quake 3 might soon become a memory ...
Hell, the old Doom community is more alive than the Q2 one.
That's because: a classic never dies :D
On the heels of Nehahra, I can tell you there were more than a dozen good mappers who I could have gotten on the Obscurus bandwagon.
By the time Obscurus is ready for mappers, there's really no telling what the situation will be (assuming of course that what I have to show the prospective mappers rocks :>) ... What I'm capable of doing on my end isn't an issue. I'm five times, I dare say even ten times, more proficient at this stuff than I was during Nehahra ((let's face it ... during Nehahra, I was a fledgling modder ... but, hey, Nehahra wasn't so bad for a first go, huh?)) The question is: no matter what awesome stuff I have to offer, will it be enough at that point?
There's a chance it might not be. It depends, depends, depends ... on a lot of things. I'm prepared for any possibility.
It's a wait and see thing.
Nehahra
#74 posted by nitin [138.217.8.83] on 2004/02/04 21:54:13
it was a fine, albeit flawed, piece of work. Both in terms of quantity and quality. I thought the nomonsters cvar was excellent, lets those who like playing with the advanced AI do their thing, and the other can play it in the classic fashion.
I dont think you really need to tinker with nehahra anymore though Mindcrime, just let it be. It's fine enough as is.
Here! Here! To The Doom Community
#75 posted by HeadThump [65.140.55.82] on 2004/02/04 22:28:01
The thing that amazes me with the Doom community is the number of really good large projects -- 32 map megawads that have been made for it. Nehahra is the closest we have to that sort of thing in the Quake scene, and I believe it is one of the few entity sets for Quake that would be sufficiently balanced to sustain interesting play over a large number of maps if it is done with the right approach to game play. In other words, the basic set of monsters and weapons in Quake is an inherent limitation on the viability of any pak that uses it.
I guess you have to weigh a lot of these factors when you design Obscurus whether or not Say's Law is applicable (if you build it, they will come) in your particular situation when you have mappers biting at the chomp to be involved, but then, there has not been as much post Nehahra fallow up modding as you may have anticipated despite the potential there.
Headthump
#76 posted by nitin [138.217.8.83] on 2004/02/05 01:26:58
I'm no mapper but I'm sure it's more easier and less time consuming to make a 32 map wad for doom and a 32 level pak for quake.
Yes
#77 posted by necros [63.139.106.197] on 2004/02/05 01:51:04
making a doom wad is about 1/10 as long as making a quake map.
that's a generalisation, of course, but it's what i have observed.
ne1_q2dm took about 2 weeks to make during my comp class whereas last year i was able to make a doom map of comparable quality in about 8 hours.
i'm sure this has to do with the relative amount of detail in a doom map. usually, you're only concerned with actual geometry, then textures, then maybe lighting (making fancy shadows and what not) and only working in 2 dimensions simplifies things a lot.
Nitin
#78 posted by HeadThump [65.141.72.238] on 2004/02/05 02:04:41
In general, that is true. You can make a playable map in DoomCad for Doom quicker than you can in similar circumstances for Quake. However, for the game play element, the time factor of developing the ideas that propel a level are pretty much the same.
Take Hell Revealed for instance. The typical map is designed so your route choices are open ended -- except for the monster placement factor where the areas and the pick ups in the areas are weighed dramatically differently. The player is forced to think strategically about his route and pick off the weaker monsters and gradually escalate who he is willing to go up against after that. It probably takes a greater deal of time to plan a layout like this than it does for your generally conceived Quake map.
This sort of game play is easier to produce in my opinion with the Nehahra balance of monsters and weapons than it is for unmodified Quake.
The Only Choice.
#79 posted by Tron [203.219.188.101] on 2004/02/07 11:42:12
Go Software Engine, it's what Jesus would want. :)
That's Because...
#80 posted by LTH [144.32.128.13] on 2004/02/10 07:08:05
Jesus's computer can probably do rt t&l in software at 200fps.
.
#81 posted by [Jimbo] [65.161.73.251] on 2004/02/16 04:17:47
Jesus don't need a 'puter as he can view the entire world in his head RT no problem (at infinite fps).
:)
WRONG
#82 posted by Zwiffle [67.39.41.101] on 2004/02/16 16:23:23
God doesn't have a head
Jesus
#83 posted by Zwiffle [67.39.41.101] on 2004/02/16 16:23:38
same thing, we are all one
Oh MindCrime,
#84 posted by HeadThump [65.140.54.203] on 2004/02/18 19:07:14
I should have mentioned this earlier, but if you are looking for a coder who can correct the camera problems; I would recommend Anthony of Dead on Que for the job. He is profecient with camming and media related code pertaining to Quake.
Actually
#85 posted by Jesus [24.158.204.102] on 2004/02/20 05:14:10
I just got my PC upgraded, so I can play that nifty new Painkiller demo! And I'm on AOL by the way, but I'm not giving out my address (really tired of all the spam)...
Rofl
#86 posted by LTH [144.32.128.13] on 2004/02/20 06:25:56
#87 posted by LTH [144.32.128.13] on 2004/02/20 06:26:31
jesusHchrist@aol.com, by any chance?
Haha
#88 posted by Jesus [24.158.204.102] on 2004/02/20 19:08:17
I'm not going to say -- but here is my webpage: http://members.aol.com/jesus316/
I Must Confess...
#89 posted by biff_debris [24.158.204.102] on 2004/02/20 19:53:31
I actually posted that stuff above, but have nothing to do with that website. Just happened upon it -- so don't go mailing that guy (who may or may not be The Real Deal) and talking about the Painkiller demo. I don't want to deal with the bad juju it might generate ;)
Hmm...
#90 posted by Jago [81.197.201.94] on 2004/09/23 15:31:56
Whatever happened to this?
Jago
#91 posted by Mr Fribbles [202.161.117.131] on 2004/09/23 22:15:29
It faded into Obscurusity.
Guffaw.
:/
#92 posted by underworldfan [128.195.64.98] on 2004/09/23 23:09:28
seems like it.
i might email mindcrime.
:D
#93 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.8.19] on 2004/11/04 11:43:36
I haven't forgotten about this thread. I check it from time to time. I had this thread as a means of letting people put their 2 cents in and toss thoughts around. Never misinterpret my silence or absence as meaning nothing is happening :p
I updated the nehahra webpage at:
http://www.planetquake.com/nehahra
... and I have decided (firmly) to ditch COOP and DEATHMATCH. Absent of multiplayer, I have that much more room to concentrate on the single player game experience.
I also lean against having in-level cutscenes or even in-between level scenes. My thoughts are ... perhaps ... one short intro which gets right into the meat of the story without pussy-footing around.
Yay @ SP Only!
#94 posted by necros [142.150.107.117] on 2004/11/04 13:42:33
:)
also, although a short intro does start everything off fast, you can get more depth via longer intro... just 0.02.
Mind
#95 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.230.101] on 2004/11/04 17:18:09
Hi!
And: Neh Nekkid plz kthx.
P.S. Please ask aguiRe to include a cvar to change particle effects back to the way they were in GLQuake. And make Phil the hero!
#96 posted by underworldfan [128.195.64.98] on 2004/11/04 21:39:17
its nice to hear this is still in your thoughts, mindcrime.
You should make it your overall project goal to make an even better single player epxerience than the superb Nehahra. =)
Doh
#97 posted by Mindcrime [69.0.124.148] on 2004/11/05 16:13:18
I kinda forgot about the Nehahra nekkid thing ...
As for long intros ... I take a lesson from my experience with Nehahra. Any long dems will be separate, related but not mandatory, things. Some people dig watching quake movies or cinematics. Some people just want to play.
The 3 demo intro to the Nehahra game, between nehstart and neh1m1, should have been separate, as Seal of Nehahra was separate...
And I've begun writing a script for a pure Ph1l movie ... just for shits and giggles ... that'd sure be a fun project to undertake...
...
#98 posted by necros [66.185.84.208] on 2004/11/05 16:24:49
or, if possible, make skipping the intro as simple as pressing a key or something like that... don't know if that's possible with demos though. :\
Some Nehahra - Obscurus Thoughts And The Evil Ball Theory
#99 posted by Mindcrime [69.0.124.148] on 2004/11/05 19:40:30
I've had a range of emails regarding Nehahra and how I would 'upgrade' it. One thing I have to be careful about is using my free time wisely. In creating Nehahra (aside from the problem of being a newbie at just about every aspect of modding) my resources were divided by too many projects at once, even if they all were Nehahra related.
When I started Nehahra (back before it even had a name) I was just doing a lot of tinkering and it began to grow into *something*. Working on it alone, my mental resources were divided between game code, models, sounds, skins (hah, I think it's of no surprise to anyone that I'm no artist...) ... and hey, that's a lot of stuff to juggle, that's a lot of hats to have to wear. So let's be modest and say that was 3 hats to wear, 3 balls to juggle.
I approached mappers when I had something to show and many came onboard when Nehahra was only a fraction of what it became. So the code, the models, the sounds, everything, was still a work-in-progress. Then I had to play the part of team leader and juggle the 'administerial ball' and 'p1mpmaster ball' for lack of better terms that my foggy mind cannot come up with. Organizing and overseeing a team is a big hat to wear. So call that 5 balls to juggle.
Then the movie ... all while everything else was in development ... I wrote it, coded it, shot it, did the voice acting.. how many balls are we up to now? I dunno. But you get my point.
I had too many balls! (HAHA!)
Hence, my firm decision not to bring mappers into Obscurus until the game is virtually done on my end (not that'll be adverse to adding some extras ... and I'm certain to have lots of bugs to fix... bugs are insidious things).
Anyway, so now I see my focus splintering again ... Obscurus ... Nehahra improvements ... cinematic ventures ... This is not only dangerous but likely to cause delay on all of the above.
The thought I had tonight was that Obscurus ... is a bit like an "off-shoot" from Nehahra. A few of the monsters I have in the progs/ directory (none of the monsters I have running in the game yet though) are Nehahra monsters redone, higher polygon, not even based on the original models...
My thought was, well, why not make the Nehahra off-shoot a tad stronger and bring the rest of the Nehahra monsters into Obscurus. That way, I'm technically working on both simultaneously. So while I might be working on a new Tsemoch for Obscurus (which I'm not at this moment, it's just an example)... it will also replace the Tsemoch in nehahra. We're talking models and animation frames (the Obscurus versions will have many more).
In terms of code, I think I should fix the things that are broke in Nehahra, but I don't think changing the AI or gameplay would be a good idea. Some people didn't dig the enhanced 'combat AI' in Nehahra (not that I can understand this, I like to be tense when playing a game and often desperate, basically I enjoy being in a world of shit ... it gets the adrenaline flowin') BUT some of the emails I've gotten... and some of the sentiments I've gotten in the past ... were... some people like Nehahra just as it is (AI wise). They don't want a chance in gameplay.
And after 4 years of Nehahra being the way it is, perhaps the gameplay is something I should leave.
The models however can be improved. If I bring on in some of my old monster friends from Nehahra into Ob, I'll be justified in working on them. Haha! (Or will I?)
The one thing I will not do is bring in the Quake monsters into Obscurus ... Not on the principle that Ob would then cease to be a TC ... and not even in reckoning that the differences in the Quake models versus Ob models would be too stark and won't go all too well together ... (both of which are true)
But because ... man ... the original baddies.. I don't want to touch. I don't want to try making a better fiend or shambler ... In Nehahra I added extra animations, that's different. I even used a few as bases as kinda-sorta-new ones (new variations), but the original monsters I did NOT touch visually.
That would be like defiling a holy shrine ...
(I did not/do not feel the same way about their AI itself, of course ... but if I had, Nehahra wouldn't be what it is... UNIQUE.)
Anyway, as usual, as is the purpose of this thread, I welcome commentary...
Mindcrime
#100 posted by nitin [138.217.2.9] on 2004/11/05 20:56:55
I thought obscurus was going to be more a 'steampunky' theme, rather than an offshoot of nehahra. I dont see that you could use too much of the nehahra monsters if that was still the case.
As for updating models etc for nehahra, I dont really think that's all that worthwhile an idea. Like you said, it's 4 years old. Anyone that likes it will already have it, the new models arent really going to be a big deal. Just put your improved modelling/skinning/animating skills to use in making Obscurus better.
Also, there's a modeller called Dylan who's made some imrpessive looking stuff on display in the Arcane Wizard thread. Considering him to lower the ball load might be an idea.
Actually...
#101 posted by necros [66.185.84.208] on 2004/11/05 22:11:06
new models for the neh monsters wouldn't be amiss... some of those models were terrible even though they were well executed...
Theme
#102 posted by Mindcrime [69.0.124.148] on 2004/11/05 22:53:58
I referenced it before as a kind of QUASI-steampunk-industrial ... I don't know if that still holds ... I go where the inspiration is and the content that's been coming ... well, it's kinda Quakey :D
Mind
#103 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.230.101] on 2004/11/06 00:00:43
Go where the inspiration is, but I'm personally more interested in Obscurus.
Yeah ...
#104 posted by Mindcrime [69.0.124.148] on 2004/11/06 00:41:17
Still chewing on it... though I confess that I probably ought to keep my eyes on the Obscurus ball and not concern myself with any Nehahra revamps (I can revamp Nehahra whenever ... it'll always be there ... and there ain't exactly a public outcry to do so...)
These thoughts gravitating towards Nehahra are probably attributed to looking back through the eyes of experience. That "Damn, I could do that so much better now."
I know when I look back on old writing I feel that way. Hell, the book I finished just after Nehahra has seen many rewrites since. I'm always on the look-out for ways to make it better. Perhaps however that the writer's "rewrite" mentality does not lend (or at least *should not*) lend itself to Quakey things!
One of the things I like about threads like this is that when I have absurd impulses, and share said impulses, there are folks around to give me perspective on it :D
Mindcrime
#105 posted by aguirRe [213.101.69.23] on 2004/11/06 15:55:11
Are the PQ/Gamespy email servers down? I've received email reject/delay messages over the last seven hours.
Monsters,
#106 posted by HeadThump [65.140.59.145] on 2004/11/06 17:41:53
I agree with you Mindcrime on that subject. The more cagey you can make the monsters without manipulating the hit point, armor and damage factors the more satisfying it is to me as a player when I plow through them. Honestly, I did not find the Nehara creatures to be too difficult and I am by no means l33t in those respects.
Re: Monsters,
#107 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.10.248] on 2004/11/06 19:20:43
Hehe, Headthump, I play Nehahra on Nightmare most of the time. I never go lower than Hard (and I usually play on hard when I'm not feeling up to par...)
Of course, my desire is to embellish on a Social AI ... not just the combat AI (though in terms of combat, it might make for 'orchestrated' attacks ... group combat where monsters coordinate ... as opposed to monsters *seeming* to coordinate merely because they share the same dispositions).
I Might Be Interested In Contributing
#108 posted by dylan [67.164.145.133] on 2004/11/08 13:37:43
here is a sight with some screen shots of some of my work, my only beef would be getting in a project that allows me no artistic liberty in character design...
http://buckmontgomery.tripod.com/m...
And Mindcrime
#109 posted by Vondur [195.128.65.237] on 2004/11/09 08:16:42
doesn't use the mouse when he plays nehahra....
Holy Smoke Dylan
#110 posted by Megazoid [194.168.3.4] on 2004/11/09 10:28:51
Some very nice model work there. Very in keeping with the Quake style. Impressive.
Wow.
#111 posted by biff_debris [24.159.176.147] on 2004/11/11 06:10:12
Ditto that, dylan =D
Comments & News & Blegh
#112 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.11.13] on 2004/11/26 16:45:41
Forgive me if I get long-winded and zony ... I've got a bug of some kind and my brain is a haze.
Dylan: I've seen your work before. It's good stuff. As for artistic liberty ... well, this here's the deal ... I work a little differently than most. I wouldn't say HEY DYLAN WHY DON'T YOU MAKE ME *such and such* a monster with this-or-that detail. That's not to say that we couldn't have some discussion about monsters and modelling in general. A more likely scenario than this would be ... if you want to contribute ... you might send me some models and I'd give them all a sharp look. If a model inspires me, I'll want to do more with it ... and I'll want to write code for it. It could be a model with animation, could be just a base model (which might inspire me to animate it if you don't)... Basically, it would be a pick and choose thing from my end ... at first ... first deciding if I like the model, then deciding if the monster is right or will fit in with Obscurus. At any rate, feel free to email me at any time ... show me some stuff ... and we might get some dialogue going...
Okay ... in other news ... I made an update to the Nehahra page about the updated Nehahra engine that Bengt Jardrup has been working on. Any of you all who dig Nehahra might want to test-drive it and see how it plays comparitively. Lot of fixes in it. Some good smoke trails (which Ender fuggered up toward the end of the development) and other fixes. The old-style HUD. spr32 bug in the nehexe.exe fixed. And others. He made the exe name glquake.exe though so keep in mind that you might want to change that filename to something else ...( I know I myself have many versions of the neh engine ... nehahra.exe nehexe.exe nehdem.exe nehahra2.exe nehahra3.exe ... heh)
what else? uhh... blegh?
Mindy
#113 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.230.101] on 2004/11/26 17:04:23
Put the original Q axe into Neh and I'll love you like a silly fanboi!
Please?
Mindcrime
#114 posted by dylan [68.191.210.64] on 2004/11/28 11:01:55
do you have qme?if so i can send stuff in .mdo format
Qme
#115 posted by Mindcrime [69.0.126.130] on 2004/11/28 11:09:38
yup, Dylan, I've got a few versions of QME.
mindcrime@planetquake.com
Progress Update And General Hemming And Hawwing
#116 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.11.99] on 2005/02/14 06:01:43
This far into Ob development .. its destination engine is assured. It's the nehahra.exe/dpnehahra.exe/darkplac... The nehahra.exe angle of this is all the more encouraging with the work that Bengt Jardrup has been doing on the engine.
On the monster side: I've got about 30 of 'em in various stages of development. More than a dozen running around in the game. A lot of the work being done has been on the model side of things (and I cringe when I look at a lot of the Nehahra models.. not the animation as much as the crazy wandering vertexes and godawful skinmaps .. by comparison, Obscurus's skinmaps are sexxy thangs indeed).
I said before about Obscurus being an off-shoot of Nehahra/Quake, which I think people took to mean that it would be a continuation of those story-lines ... when what I meant was Obscurus sharing common ground (and occupying a place in the same universe.. or in this case, occupying a universe within the string of multiple universes that encompass quake/neh). Obscurus does maintain its Total Conversion integrity by including no original ID stuff, and a TC was what I was after, at least on a technical level (though if future mappers were to use ID textures, would this threaten its integrity of being a TC? I don't think so. I've seen a lot of things passed off as TCs. I've even read in places where Nehahra was referred to as a TC, when it was actually a PC.. albeit an involved one).
I don't mind dropping a spoiler here as it represents only a fraction of what's in Obscurus, but (some) Nehahra monsters are making a comeback. I should add that the monsters are not the same models (not even using the original models as a base, the baron being one exception but he's based on the original model from which the baron was derived). These are higher polygon guys, but they're also being adapted to the Obscurus gameplay. It is only in name and CONCEPTUALLY that they are the same. So there might be some comfort in these visual familiarities even if there are stark differences otherwise. (and because it's the Nehahra monsters wiggling their way in, the integrity of the TC is still maintained). That is not to say that ALL nehahra monsters will have a rebirth. Not all. But if any of you have favorites, you might mention them on this thread ... and if I haven't given them any thought, I might.
(An interjection: Obscurus does have ogres, but they are only loosely based on vanilla Quake's. They are not better or worse, but different and really shouldn't be expected to fill our old friend (the monster_ogre)'s shoes.)
When I say off-shoot, I'm also talking about a continuation of the Quake-esque and Nehahra-esque feel yet evolving from both into its own distinct vibe. Which brings me to the next thing:
Weapon and weapon-esque item system: This has been a sticky point of Obscurus because I wanted something different. I wanted a deviation from the FPS formula. It's not my intention to create a Nehahra 2. I want to take it to another level and break out of the FPS mold (just enough to say I did, not enough to bust the "integrity" of the FPS feel). Because of this, perhaps ambitious, want.. I've scrapped (most of) the weapons in Obscurus more times than I'd care to think about. Some weapons have stuck around, yes. Every round of re-weaponizing.. something sticks. Sooner or later, I guess, enough of it will stick and fill up the slots. CONCEPTUALLY, I don't want the ol [melee weapon, little gun, bigger gun, automatic, faster automatic, grenade, rockets, lightning and/or rail] system. To my eyes, this is a tired thing ... and if we're doomed to be stuck with this for the rest of FPS-dom, god help us. What happens in the end... well, we'll see.
An old important question still lingers. I have the capability now of going either way.
LINEAR versus NON-LINEAR.
This has been discussed time and time again on message boards and in chats or whatnot. I've devised an almost flawless system for returning to maps where you've already been and the maps being left as you left them (and furthermore, the map having changed in your absence... or more precisely, accounting for the passage of time). Like Hexen II had hubs. Ob would have one big HUB, every ob map basically would be in it. My dilemma does not come from the inherent flaws of the usage of this kind of system in the past (the most prominent that comes to my mind is... serious lulls in the action... as maps you've blown through in other games are often ghost-maps when you return...) but looking at THE BIG PICTURE.
In a completely NON-LINEAR game, what is the ultimate pay-off for the player? What is the reward for your all your efforts? That's usually "winning the game", but can you win a game that doesn't ever end?
(cont)
#117 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.11.99] on 2005/02/14 06:02:02
Because of this, I'm still reluctant to plug the system in ... I feel like a man with a finger hovering over a button that might well be a NUKE button. Once it goes in, it'll be some bitch tearing it all out (unless I comment the hell out of the code and make it ghastly to look at when I'm trying to work on it).
That's all for now. Yeah, I'm still alive and still getting work done now and then.
Though I went for a few weeks without doing anything. I put about 30 hours into it this weekend.
Any thoughts, as always, are welcome.
((RPG: P.S. Just replace the sword model with the axe in the progs schmuck :p))
Mindcrime:
#118 posted by Scampie [68.190.114.142] on 2005/02/14 10:16:38
no specific comments from me, but glad to hear you're still working. Hope to see this project turn out well.
Mindcrime
#119 posted by underworldfan [128.195.64.98] on 2005/02/14 18:12:33
thanks for all the new information and interesting thoughts, ill probably update my site in the next few days and link to posts #116,117.
In a completely NON-LINEAR game, what is the ultimate pay-off for the player? What is the reward for your all your efforts? That's usually "winning the game", but can you win a game that doesn't ever end?
I agree with this worry completely. My suggestion is to make the overall structure of the game linear: a clear start and a definite rewarding end goal.
Inbetween, in other words the players path from start to end, can have elements on non-linearity to it.
But in general i am a classical kind of person and hence believe in and prefer the linear concept of player progression.
Makes My Day,
#120 posted by HeadThump [65.141.73.182] on 2005/02/14 22:46:04
anytime Mindcrime submits ideas or .plan like summaries.
I would like to see how a more non linear experience would work out in a FPS like Obscurus, but the feasibilaty really depends on how you plan to juggle all of the aspects of the design and the time management involved.
If you do a more non linear approach you will have to assert more control over the content of each mapper's level for the sake of continuity, and that could eat at your time, obviously.
#121 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.17.93] on 2005/02/15 12:46:34
In that case, I think I would have to assert *some* control.. only to ensure there is connectivity... but I think that's equally true of the standard linear game.
As for eating at my time... one of the top ten reasons for waiting until so much is done before looking for a "team"... is so that my time can be focused on bug-fixing, adding new things mappers might want, and.. for lack of a better term.. "administration".
I expect very good things from this game, knowing that 100% of my focus is on THE GAME (which was, of course, not the case with nehahra ... divided resources and all that...)
Don't misinterpret that to mean that I have grievances with the Nehahra game. I couldn't be happier with the end product. It's just that MY end... could have been better. The mappers gave their best ... and I don't think I did. I don't think I could under those circumstances.
Then again, I've got a lot more experience now.
Anyhooo . . .
Don't Worry
#122 posted by Zwiffle [69.210.43.29] on 2005/02/15 12:49:30
Mindcrime, we all blame you for the abysmal failure that was Nehahra. :D
Does Non-Linear Ever End?
#123 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.254.248] on 2005/02/15 12:52:08
In a completely NON-LINEAR game, what is the ultimate pay-off for the player? What is the reward for your all your efforts? That's usually "winning the game", but can you win a game that doesn't ever end?
Finishing the story is when you "win the game," but you are right in that you can't win something that does not have an end.
The pay-off for the player depends greatly. For some, it would be just having an enjoyable experience for half an hour (many people never even finish games, but just because they haven't "won" doesn't mean they have "lost.") For others, the pay-off will be completing the story. And for others, the pay-off might be in experiencing every gameplay scenerio in the game.
I think for non-linear games the pay-off should be observed on a per-situation basis, and not globally. Really, I think this is the way all people should think of games.
#124 posted by cant map [195.208.123.213] on 2005/02/22 05:33:43
u still need some global motivation be it linear game or not
and there is always only some relative degree of non-linearity anyway
#125 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.19.48] on 2005/02/24 17:45:23
I know a game being NON-LINEAR does not mean that the game has no ending. My mention of that I guess was unintentional leak of something of my thoughts. Not plans, exactly. Just thoughts.
That is perhaps my personal holy grail, my final frontier, my larger vision ...
A game that evolves and does not end. I'm not going to elaborate. I don't need to really. Reading into that statement alone and using some imagination will certainly give you the picture.
That is perhaps a vision never to be realized on the Quake engine. Perhaps. Only the mildest execution of that idea is probably possible. Probably.
I consider that the strongest possible caliber of Non-Linear there is. It's my wet dream.
It Has To Be Said...
#126 posted by mwh [137.222.80.208] on 2005/02/25 03:09:31
> A game that evolves and does not end.
I'm thinking "quake" here -- but I know that's not what you meant...
Blegh
#127 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.78.140] on 2005/02/25 08:15:46
You obviously don't get it. Maybe it's too big for your wittle mind to handle :P
Anyway.. n/m that. I was only clarifying. As "Non-Linear", by itself, of course does not mean the game which it refers to does not end.
Moving on ....
Mindcrime:
#128 posted by metlslime [66.135.131.101] on 2005/02/25 13:53:35
you are the least articulate professional writer i know :)
#129 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.78.140] on 2005/02/25 14:53:10
Perhaps! Though I can expect I am, no doubt, the most eccentric professional writer you know...
I am just much more articulate about imaginary things than real ones ... and when I'm behind the keyboard writing ... well, my mind-set is different.
I might also add that while I can spell fabulously ... I cannot pronounce for shit :D
Oink X2
#130 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.254.248] on 2005/02/25 15:46:30
you are the least articulate professional writer i know
You don't know very many, do you? Either that or I only know the least articulate of the least articulate.
Hey Mindcrime
#131 posted by Trinca [194.65.31.249] on 2005/07/04 02:43:19
how things go??? :) hope everything o.k with the project and with you :)
chears Trinca
Mindcrime
#132 posted by Jago [85.76.178.7] on 2005/07/08 15:51:01
Has anything been happening to the project?
Mindcrime
#133 posted by Kingold [61.140.34.79] on 2005/07/09 17:59:20
Is everything going smoothly? Expecting the release date.
And, I hope you wouldn't come up with a weapon system as terrible as that of Unreal/Unreal2's. Much weapons of these two games lay latent for most of the time I playing them. Different weapons are not fully differentiated. Personally, I do prefer a simple and straightforward weap system like that of quakes.
Dropping In, Leaving A Few Cents. Obscure Ideas And More.
#134 posted by grahf [68.71.227.43] on 2005/07/16 22:59:38
A game that evolves and does not end.
Mindcrime, it sounds like you secretly want to drop the FPS paradigm altogether and create a true living world in computer space, where the monsters don't simply sit around and wait for you to come and blast them, but lead intricate personal lives and influence the world around them. Sure there are MMORPGS which are constantly evolving worlds (Second Life comes to mind) but you can't control the roles that the other actors play, or what they create, like you can for an AI. This, it seems to me, is the mapper's ideal: creating a place which, when experienced (played), extends beyond its initial parameters (emergent behavior or somesuch). Will Obscurus be anything like this? Only Mindcrime knows. But I think it can only be a good thing (for the sake of atmosphere and immersion) when the game world either seems or is larger than what the player immediately experiences.
I've always dreamt of creating a massively interconnected and convoluted medieval city, where the player could explore every nook and cranny and find detail, design, and activity. A city with a social structure, a purpose, inhabitants who go about doing something. The most recent incarnation is of my vision is being made for Nehahra because that's the only quake mod which possesses anywhere near the required features (all those AI flags are great... but there is potential for so much more, yes?)
Nonlinear hub designs are good for another reason: you can build a coherent place much larger than what the quake engine would normally allow.
Oh, and you should definitely keep the Jagger. He's such an atmospheric monster; just walks around and makes creepy noises. And he's a social monster to, to infer from the entities that control him. What kind of activity would go on in a Jagger colony? Females rearing young, and males hunting fish. And what if there were an artifact in the heart of the underground colony (I imagine it something like a beaver's nest, but much larger) that you had to retrieve, that the jaggers were very territorial about? Hmm, my mind wanders, but that'd be a really cool map.
Apparently this post keeps evolving and does not end. I think I've been reading too many architecture books lately. I found this one called "Shelter And Society" which has great pictures of indigineous architecture all over the world. Some Norweigan farming villages gave me good inspiration for using the Rune textures. ;)
OK now I'm really rambling. Bye now, and have a good rest-of-the-summer, everybody.
Sounds...
#135 posted by necros [69.193.222.114] on 2005/07/17 09:30:23
...like you're describing what Stalker is supposed to be... if it ever comes out. O_o
:P
General Bleghery
#136 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.116.114] on 2005/09/27 09:41:35
For those who A) care, and B) haven't been paying attention [ and interesting combination ].. I've updated the Nehahra site. I have been updating it for a while now. I thought I'd mention it here as Nehahra doesn't have a thread of its own, to my knowledge. This is Obscurus related in a way as a partial merger between Obscurus and Nehahra occurred. But as for the rest of Obscurus... well... I do not know what will come of it... I hadn't planned a Nehahra Episode 4.. only a revamp... now there's both.
Anyhoo: http://www.planetquake.com/nehahra
And yeah, now that I'm around regularly (have been.. just not on the msgboard..) I'll take any questions, suggestions, insults, death threats, whatever :)
Mind
#137 posted by Trinca [194.65.31.249] on 2005/09/28 01:16:12
Mindcrime dont makes us get water in our mouth...finish the work, for us to keep playing this great addon that u start many years ago... :) and many people keep loving it!
cheers my friend :)
Trinca
Bleh
#138 posted by Tron [202.7.183.131] on 2005/09/28 03:16:19
I tried running quake with the extension -game obscurus and it got unhappy with me.
I demand you fix this problem immediately!
Tron
#139 posted by Trinca [194.65.31.249] on 2005/09/28 03:29:20
dont use drugs... :)
Re: Obscurus
#140 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.116.114] on 2005/09/28 05:54:09
On the Ob subject, I had a brilliant epiphany about 2 months ago regarding Obscurus and Quake in general. One that's too irresistible not to implement, if I were to move forward on an 'Obscurus TC', but then to implement it means starting over in most of the ways that matter. Ripping everything out of code and starting from scratch. Because it changes the way I would do everything. It would also render a lot of the model content (monsters) obsolete, as it changes the way animation and monsters are handled. It changes too much, you could say.
When something amazing occurs to you though, it's very difficult to continue on as you were and try to pretend that you never had experienced said epiphany....
What it comes down to now is the Obscurus 'concept' and the Obscurus content.. whether those two will part. It is likely that the Obscurus content and much of its code will splinter (keeping the stuff that isn't obsolete, booting the stuff that is which will then be funneled into Quake stuffs and future Nehahra stuffs so long as it is conceptually and visually compatible (as has already started to happen, albeit on a small scale, and the fact that Obscurus was an indirect off-shoot of Quake/Nehahra universes from the start is certainly helpful).
This probably means good things for Quake in general--a lot of the Ob stuff coming out in other forms through the Quake channel.
If what I've said has confused anyone, that's okay. I'm confused too, because I've been left in a strange no-man's land between what I have done and what I want to do, which are no longer the same and in ways contradict. :D
People in the mod community are notorious for dumping mods midstream because of better technology that comes out, more advanced engines. Those who know me know that I'm not like-minded in this respect, but in this case, it is not the engine or technology that has gotten more advanced.. It's my mind that has.
As for the Nehahra revamp.. and especially Episode 4.. forget about Ob for now and concentrate on that.
I think it'll blow your balls off :)
#141 posted by Trinca [194.65.31.249] on 2005/09/28 06:49:45
what means revamp? lol my english is to poor for this kind of words...
BYBOAPCMPFYBTWSS
#142 posted by . [70.224.230.229] on 2005/09/28 10:55:49
Trinca
1. To patch up or restore; renovate.
2. To revise or reconstruct (a manuscript, for example).
3. To vamp (a shoe) anew.
Could It Be?
#143 posted by ionous [70.19.199.136] on 2005/09/28 19:42:27
"I think it'll blow your balls off :)"
So CZG is making more maps!
Episode 4 Of Nehahra!? Excellent News.
#144 posted by underworldfan [128.195.84.154] on 2005/09/28 19:58:02
im still waiting for glassman's nehahra maps. :D
mindcrime/glassman i hereby order you to contact each other, if you havent already. :D
I Still Think QMD Should Have Been Involved.
#145 posted by Tron [144.137.199.91] on 2005/09/28 20:07:11
You should track him down Mindcrime, he could build the sets for cutscenes.
Too Irresistible Not To Implement
#146 posted by bambuz [130.233.220.23] on 2005/09/29 03:32:17
didn't a few people (pulsar?) say they've done the architechture but not the monsters / progs / trigs for their ob maps, so whatever you're going to change in that dep...
I really can't start not wondering about what ideas you might have missed avoiding to go past but instead made hit your forehead. I wonder a lot of things though, like, if you "modernize" one graphical thing, are you forced to change the next one since it looks now obsolete etc.
Does Q3 have a part in this?
#147 posted by Trinca [194.65.31.249] on 2005/09/29 04:26:40
just home for the release this year... ;)
#148 posted by Trinca [194.65.31.249] on 2005/09/29 04:26:45
just hope for the release this year... ;)
Glassman
#149 posted by Kinn [81.130.212.78] on 2005/09/29 04:56:40
What happened to teh Glassman anyway? Anyone know what he's up to?
Er
#150 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.17.40] on 2005/09/29 05:53:35
I emailed Glassman and he never responded. I could try again...
bambuz: Q3 has no place in my mind... heh
I don't believe any game uses the methods
I have in mind.
When I said 'changes everything', I was speaking as a coder. There would be no radical changes in building architecture.
The bottom line on that is this: I thought of a new way of doing things and, rather like coming up with an awesome new book idea, my inclination is to pounce on it. However, I don't know that I want to commit to another future project beyond Nehahra and then Obscurus. So if Obscurus is to be my "last dance" so to speak... it will be my last chance to implement this :/
There's the rub. Will I commit to another project. Or should I let Ob take its original course.. and if the other stuff happens, it happens? It's a hard choice for me to make.
So naturally I'm teetering on it. Chewing on it till my gums bleed. So far I've only decided to decide.. not made the final decision. Which is why the door remains open..
And Ob is still precariously up in the air.
http://www.planetquake.com/nehahra...
To put it even more simply: I don't know what to do :P
I can thank working on the revamp and Nehahra Ep 4 for giving me plenty of time to think about it ( and we can hope objectively).
Changing Everything
#151 posted by bambuz [130.233.220.23] on 2005/09/29 06:02:47
must be judged by how much the end result is different and better compared to the amount of work done.
To Clarify Bambuz
#152 posted by PuLSaR [80.80.111.129] on 2005/09/29 14:30:31
didn't a few people (pulsar?) say they've done the architechture but not the monsters / progs / trigs for their ob maps
that's for tronyn's arcane wizard project, not obscurus
PuLSaR
#153 posted by Mindcrime [69.37.17.40] on 2005/09/29 16:36:37
I did kinda wonder about that... Heh.
Urgh
#154 posted by bambuz [130.233.220.23] on 2005/09/30 07:33:26
i'm so messed about all these projects, sorry

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