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              <p><font color="#0000FF"><b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#0000CC">volume 
                1, issue 7</font></b></font></p>
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                </font></b></font></p>
              <p>  <p><font face="Courier New, Courier, mono"><b><font color="#339900" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Today 
                in loonygames:</font></b></font></p>

<P><font color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">New!!</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> The Archives have been cleaned up, fead links fixed, and printable versions restored! Also, don't miss the new comments <a href="../../../index.html">on the front page</a>!</font></p>
              
<P><font color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"><a href="../../2.15/feat/index.html" target="">Livin' 
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  Obscura</a></font><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">: Josh 
  Vasquez on <b>Omikron: The Nomad Soul</b>.</font></p>
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        <p align="LEFT"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="+3" color="#0022A8">The 
          Community Summit</font></p>
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<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.15/">2.15: Livin' With The Sims</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.14/">2.14: To the Extreme</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.13/">2.13: Not Just a Passing Wind</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.12/">2.12: It's Not Easy Being Green</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.11/">2.11: Inside Origin Systems</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.10/">2.10: Game Networking 101</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.9/">2.9: Tell me a Story</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.8/">2.8: Anatomy of a Video Game</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.7/">2.7: 1999 loonygames Awards</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.6/">2.6: PC Fight Club</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.5/">2.5: Paul Steed '99</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.4/">2.4: Sounds From All Over</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.3/">2.3: Kicking Back with a Bear</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.2/">2.2: End of the Line</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/2.1/">2.1: American McGee's Alice</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.41/">----- Volume 1 -----</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.41/">1.41: Put a Little Love...</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.40/">1.40: Game Programming...</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.39/">1.39: More loonygames @ E3!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.38/">1.38: loonygames at E3!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.37/">1.37: The ReRuns Issue</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.36/">1.36: Inside Raven Software</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.35/">1.35: Waking Graeme Devine</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.34/">1.34: Writing the Game</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.33/">1.33: Totally Tribal</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.32/">1.32: Under His Skin</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.31/">1.31: The Glory of G.O.D.</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.30/">1.30: Chillin' w/Jason Hall</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.29/">1.29: Extreme Annihilation</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.28/">1.28: Adventures in ASCII</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.27/">1.27: Serious Brass Ones</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.26/">1.26: Two Programs...</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.25/">1.25: The Unreal Cliffy B!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.24/">1.24: Gimme Your Money!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.23/">1.23: Old Crusty Gamers</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.22/">1.22: Bugs!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.21/">1.21: 2001</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.20/">1.20: Can't Please Everyone</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.19/">1.19: The Rise and Fall...</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.18/">1.18: romuluSngan HoH!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.17/">1.17: A Very Geeky Christmas</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.16/">1.16: 5 Years of Doom!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.15/">1.15: Tune Up Your Game!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.14/">1.14: NT + Games = ???</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.13/">1.13: Blue and Levelord...</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.12/">1.12: When It's Done!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.11/">1.11: Hangin' With John Romero!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.10/">1.10: Still Sick of Games</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.9/">1.9: Gettin' Odd with the loonies</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.8/">1.8: LAN Parties...</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.7/">1.7: The Community Summit</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.6/">1.6: DRAW Pardner!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.5/">1.5: Taking Aim at Paul Steed</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.4/">1.4: Play Where You Like!</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.3/">1.3: *Special Duke Issue*</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.2/">1.2: Are You Sick of Games?</option>
<option value="http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.1/">1.1: Chris Taylor Gets Some!</option>

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        <p><b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bobbi</font></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">: 
          Would you have done the HUGE <b>Shogo</b> writeup if you weren't selling 
          it as well, though?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Idoru</b>: Bobbi, nice 
          point</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: of course 
          we would. it also gave us the chance to display 3 ad banners with one 
          article and was content we thought people wanted to see</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: If Sierra would 
          let me play through <b>Half-Life</b>? Hell yah.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: how do you 
          answer to the arguments that it is a conflict of interest though?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: If you do 
          something like that it's important to stay open minded. if you guys 
          are selling a game like <b>Shogo</b> (random example), it's important 
          that you still provide a fair review to the community.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: Now, the argument 
          that it's a conflict of interest is a good one. So, the only answer 
          is to look at a site in the long term, see what they're doing, and determine 
          if they're selling out or providing services.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: yah it may 
          mean putting "...this game really sucked. CLICK HERE TO BUY AT THE PQ 
          STORE" at the end of the review, but it's fair nonetheless ;)</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: We'll end up 

          doing that sooner or later. Inevitably. In the meantime, we're providing 
          a store to sell games we think people will like. I think people will 
          like <b>Shogo</b>.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: <a href="http://www.stomped.com">stomped</a> 
          did it before us</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Bobbi</b>: <a href="http://www.planetquake.com">PlanetQuake</a> 
          started the trend with hosts...do you think you're going to start another 
          one with the store?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: Bobbi, I 
          think <a href="http://www.softmania.com">SoftMania</a> was able to do 
          it fairly well, well before <a href="http://www.planetquake.com">PlanetQuake</a>. 
          I don't see anyone else in here wanting to start an online store though, 
          am I right?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: <a href="http://www.evilavatar.com">evil 
          avatar</a> was quick to add an <a href="http://www.amazon.com">amazon</a> 
          button</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Idoru</b>: wrong</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: An online store 
          lets us continue to provide services (as well as being a service in 
          and of itself) without charging people elsewhere.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: i think it'd 
          be neat but <a href="http://www.quake2.com">quake2.com</a> doesn't have 
          the manpower anyway, so that's kind of out of the question.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: <a href="http://www.ogr.com">ogr</a> 
          and <a href="http://www.cdmag.com">cdmag.com</a> are now part of the 
          same company</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: nope, too 
          much work and I would rather have fun reviewing games and playing then 
          dealing with paperwork</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: Because ad 
          banners are so difficult to make money off of, I'd be shocked if we 
          didn't see more online stores all over. It's very much a step in the 
          process of building a community. </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Redwood</b>: I don't think 
          I'd trust reviews from a site that had a link so you could then purchase 
          the game from them. It seems very different from a game mag with an 
          ad for the same game they review.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: Why different?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Redwood</b>: not sure 
          what you mean </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: You know that 
          people BUY magazine covers, right?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: a magazine 
          gets their money regardless of how many copies are sold of a game in 
          an ad</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: not to attack 
          anyone, but is journalistic integrity considered heavily when debating 
          whether to open an online store at a gaming site?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: Yeah. Lots 
          of heavy debate, as a matter of fact. ;)</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: good to 
          hear Dave ;D What tipped the scales though?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: When i review 
          a game, if the company who made it sells it online, I link to their 
          sales page, but I wouldn't take a profit for making a sale for them 
          </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Redwood</b>: I know, that's 
          not what I meant. That's a bit different</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: Well, in 
          my opinion, <a href="http://www.planetquake.com">PlanetQuake</a> is 
          doing it how it should be done, they started with <a href="http://www.gamespy.com">GameSpy</a>, 
          which was a major success, and helped provide funding for a whole lot 
          of ventures and resources. Now with the money made from that venture, 
          they are starting others, would any of us do it differently if we could? 
          I know I would not.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Idoru</b>: Ya, <a href="http://www.planetquake.com">PlanetQuake</a> 
          has a sound business plan</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: The fact that 
          we didn't want to hike up the price of <a href="http://www.gamespy.com">GameSpy</a> 
          in order to pay for more bandwidth. The fact that people WANT to buy 
          games online.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: People 
          want to buy as much as possible online IMO Not just games</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: agreed</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: not me i'd 
          rather buy at the store, but that's just because i'm impatient.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>loonyboi</b>: sure, I 
          agree with that. but to review the same products "objectively" when 
          you profit from their sales is questionable.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: What if you 
          have a store that sells everything, and mixed good/bad reviews of various 
          games? Better yet, your store allows people to rate the games themselves?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Redwood</b>: Fargo: I 
          like that idea </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: same here. 
          i'd never buy online through pre orders. i have an eb down the block 
          at work</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: laziness 
          has overtaken the online community, like it or not.... capitalizing 
          on it is definitely sound, business-wise</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: me too.. the 
          gas to get to the store is less than Fedex shipping charges :)</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Bobbi</b>: To grab an 
          example...<a href="http://www.planetquake.com">PlanetQuake</a> now hosts 
          <a href="http://www.planetquake.com/flamethrower/">Flamethrower</a>, 
          which openly bashes <a href="http://www.planetquake.com">PlanetQuake</a>, 
          among others. Are there ethics involved in hosting, and do sites need 
          to consider these before offering hosting?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: i don't agree 
          that <a href="http://www.planetquake.com/flamethrower/">flamethrower</a> 
          bashes <a href="http://www.planetquake.com">PlanetQuake</a></font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: there's an 
          ethics to hosting already-hosted sites and there's a certain fine line 
          that i'm sure nobody would cross when it comes to a certain type of 
          site requesting hosting</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: netguy: people 
          leave for various reasons. some see other opportunities elsewhere, some 
          didn't like the service at their curent host, some didn't think they 
          had a chance of beinghosted somewhere else. not to say that it's a reason 
          to go after hosted sites because of that</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: there are 
          definitely ethics involved when hosting any site. as long as he's not 
          bashing other hosted sites at <a href="http://www.planetquake.com">PlanetQuake</a> 
          I see no problem with it </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Idoru</b>: ethics for 
          hosting consist of three things, no porn, no warez and nothing illegal 
          and try and keep people happy that you host</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: I would think 
          so. Do you really want to belong to a network which doesn't support 
          you and your site?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: Bashing 
          sites are a fad, and only a small handful will survive. If you look 
          at the people running them, chances are they have been failures at running 
          a conventional website, and to take revenge on the world, they launch 
          a slam site which gets alot of traffic because the content is controversial</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: what about 
          the ethics of "stealing" sites though? does anyone truly believe this 
          is a common problem?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: yeah</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: how can you 
          steal a site?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: you make 
          an offer. sometimes with money</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Idoru</b>: i think the 
          site stealing runs in cycles</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: I mean really?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: Aurora, 
          I know, I was going to make that point :)</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: the site that 
          hosts it doesn't own it</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Idoru</b>: sometimes it 
          is crazy and then everybody agrees for awhile not to do it</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: i think people 
          sometimes get the impression a site steals when it's not and that causes 
          them to want to retaliate</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: In my opinion, 
          stealing sites is fair game, if you can offer someone a better arrangement 
          then they currently have, and if you yourself want to grow and expand, 
          you have to go for it... as ruthless as some people think it is</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: i disagree. 
          hosting sites for the majority of the bigger sites means revenue</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: And if you 
          gave your hosted sites what they needed to keep it going and stay happy, 
          you wouldn't have to worry about them moving to another network</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: Well said.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Redwood</b>: but sometimes 
          people just get greedy and want more money even if they are in a good 
          place </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: I think 
          something that goes along with "stealing sites" is "stealing" workers 
          from other sites</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: and in my 
          ethical opinion, it's just rude to steal stuff like that, actively.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: Then make 
          sure your site crews are happy</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>loonyboi</b>: a site's 
          creator goes where he likes. if you can't keep him happy, then how is 
          that stealing?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Redwood</b>: by enticing 
          them to leave</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: Jason, I 
          don't see it as stealing, but the hosts who end up with the short end 
          of the stick seem to</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: Netguy? 
          So? Some sites want that revenue, and need it to survive</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: NetGuy, 
          do you feel it's rude to "steal" them for non-profit purposes though?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: i mean if 
          sites leave of their own free will then who are we to stop them? but 
          actively going behind the backs of other sites to steal hosted sites 
          is pretty wrong. </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: in the end 
          a site moves out of it's own decision</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: heh, I 
          understand the frustration NetGuy, I just think it will never change 
          from what it currently is</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: yah but if 
          we're sitting here talking about ethics, is it real "ethical" to entice 
          other sites? even if it means lying to the site about their current 
          host (which happens)?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: Entice?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: they aren't 
          offering money or prostitutes or anything (in most cases), simply other 
          services that their current hosts cannot offer </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: What does "Entice" 
          mean? To offer better services?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: Fargo, I 
          believe that's the definition we're going by</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Redwood</b>: Offer better 
          services, offer money, etc. </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: If I can 
          offer someone something you cant, then why would I not do that? It would 
          be for the good of the fan base after all</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: ChrisDay: 
          there are very few "non profit" hosted sites anymore. if they're a hosted 
          site running your ad banner, they're no longer "non profit"</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: If that's the 
          definition, then why is it bad? (Now, lying is a seperate and personal 
          issue, one we can probably all agree on.) </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: I mean if 
          the host is non-profit NetGuy, sorry</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Redwood</b>: netguy: to 
          the people running the hosted site it may be non-profit, but to the 
          host, yes for profit</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: that kind 
          of makes me wonder why a non-profit host would be interested in taking 
          a hosted site from a host that depends on them for profit</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: because 
          they can offer the site better services</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: with the ultimate 
          goal of becoming profitable.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: offering 
          money is a short sighted biz idea. hands up who isn't at <a href="http://www.gamesmania.com">gamesmania</a> 
          anymore ;)</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: joost? what 
          did you mean by that?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: i mean the 
          web site business is too young for people to know how much money they 
          can afford to pay out</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Bobbi</b>: Joost..you 
          dont think paying hosted sites is a possibility?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: Look, hosting 
          sites is a damn big job... first off, it takes people to support their 
          every whim, not to mention all the free space and bandwidth that you 
          are giving them, not to mention popularity. Chances are some of these 
          mod sites and such could not even exist, nor would want to, without 
          a big name host </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: you don't 
          hand out better services for free</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: and besides 
          (see my <a href="http://www.planetcrap.com">planetcrap.com</a> posting). 
          how do you decide who still does enough work to merrit the amount agreed 
          on</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: eventually 
          the site you stole will become profitable. it's just the nature of things.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: we must have 
          at least 500 people contributing to our sites</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: Paying sites 
          will be an option for the larger players in the near future, depending 
          on how the market goes over the next few months.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: how do i 
          decide who's worth paying?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: not at all. 
          Whats wrong with giving your hosted sites a percentage of ad revenue 
          fromt he click throughs their site does.. you dont have to promise a 
          monthly amount. Wouldn't any site who runs your network ad be worth 
          paying?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: for larger 
          sites that's a possibility, however for smaller sites, the tax problems 
          there are too numerous to consider it</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: Because a site 
          may not be paying for itself, much less earning a profit. </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>blitz</b>: the ad market 
          is actually dwindling acroos the net statistically</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: Yes, but some 
          creative solutions are possible.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>loonyboi</b>: 'rora: you 
          assume they get revenue from clickthrus.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: what's wrong 
          is that when people stop investing the same amount of effort in a site 
          than they did, they don't deserve the same amount of mponey</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Redwood</b>: that's why 
          a percentage of income from their page is a good idea. No work=less 
          money</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: i like to 
          think that they would exist because of the ingenuity of their mod, not 
          because of their hosted site but i see what you mean anyway</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: yes, but 
          that depends on their hosting situation</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: but without 
          a large audience, some free space, etc, it is a tall task. Some of our 
          MOD's that we host consume 60Mb of more of disk space do you know what 
          that would cost on an ISP, etc? Assuming they would even let you?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: stuck on 
          <a href="http://www.geocities.com">Geocities</a>, most of them will 
          fail to exist. you see a lot of "Oh crap, our mod is almost done, now 
          we need a real host"</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: maybe, but 
          there are a lot of sites that have done well for themselves without 
          having a big host like SteQve's No-Frill's Quake mods. that site did 
          relatively well, because of ingenuity, not because of hosting.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: he didn't 
          want to get hosted by anyone and had content. a good example, indeed</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: it costs 
          a small fortune to host many sites</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Idoru</b>: heck, we have 
          sites that consume over 300megs</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: <a href="http://www.telefragged.com/bodyshop">bodyshop</a>, 
          idoru?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: yah there's 
          no doubt that hosted sites drain resources, but that's the gamble you 
          take when you throw your hat into the hosting ring ;)</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Redwood</b>: true</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: Take a 
          site like BDP that we used to host... they released a 15Mb Duke TC that 
          got 40,000 downloads last year</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Idoru</b>: of that type, 
          repositories</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>bwernicke</b>: how the 
          hell do they afford that?</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: right, without 
          a large host, that site would be impossible or very expensive</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Bobbi</b>: How essential 
          is the domain name? </font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: Crucial.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>NetGuy</b>: very</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>ChrisDay</b>: Bobbi, totally 
          essential</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Fargo</b>: Gets early 
          mindshare.</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>jschuur</b>: branding 
          is important</font></p>
        <p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Aurora</b>: very</font></p>
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