Quaddicted.com Forum

Spirit

Administrator

User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I need some input by you guys. We ended up in kind of a pickle in regards to user privacy and thanks to Bal to noticing that.

- People can give ratings to releases in https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/ on a scale from 1-5 hearts.
- A feed on the frontpage shows recent ratings among comments, tags etc but without the username as some people were using that feed to harass users who they thought were "wrong" with their ratings.
- Comment threads on releases show the user's rating if available.
- You can look at a person's recent activity on https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/user … <username> which is not really obvious.
- And there is a kind of hidden page with global recent activity at https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/log.php which isn't prominently linked anywhere but also is not a secret: https://www.google.com/search?q="https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quaddicted.com%2Freviews%2Flog.php"

People might think their votes are anonymous unless they comment but anyone can see them on their userpage and on the log page.

Now the question is how to proceed. I am both a huge proponent of privacy so hiding them alltogether would work for me. But I also think that there should be some way for the community to self-regulate and for that people need to be able to have some insight into the ratings (since people care SO MUCH about some numbers on the internet sadly). Also it feels like a nicer place if you can check out others interacting in the community.

So should the frontpage feed show usernames again? I always liked it as it shows community spirit and interaction. And should usernames on the comment threads link to the profile? I could also add them in the forums I guess. Or should ratings become completely anonymous?

triple_agent

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I think transparency is the way to go. If someone is uneasy with having their name put next to the vote they gave, then perhaps they should not vote, but comment only.

JMP

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

IMO the current system is fine. Only a user's 10 most recent ratings are visible, so most of their data is still hidden. If ratings became 100% private, they would be more vulnerable to being gamed.

Last edited by JMP (2022-02-11 22:44:00)

triple_agent

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

they would be more vulnerable to being gamed.

I like that term: to game something. Sounds like money.

MikeTaylor

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I like to see usernames. Like you said, it gives more of a sense of community, and I think that's a big part of what's make Quaddicted so successful. That said, I've never been abused for my reviews or ratings, so if that's really happening to people then I can see the other side of this argument.

triple_agent

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I like to see usernames. Like you said, it gives more of a sense of community, and I think that's a big part of what's make Quaddicted so successful. That said, I've never been abused for my reviews or ratings, so if that's really happening to people then I can see the other side of this argument.

I would expect controversy to arise in relevant comment sections, if anything, rather than on the forum.

Markie

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I think the community is too small for public ratings. There have been numerous cases recently where people have gotten personal over ratings on this site, whether it be in the form of DMs or rating "counter-attacks".

I've personally felt uncomfortable rating certain listings with my honest thoughts because I feel like weird politics would get involved that I have no interest in. At the same time, I really prefer rating items over writing a full on review to justify my feelings because I also use the rating system as an "I've already played this" checkbox. Once again, it comes back to the community being a little too small and a little too personal.

Last edited by Markie (2022-02-14 00:17:00)

h4724

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I think I'd have to agree with Markie here. Ratings don't really matter, nor should they, but with a community this small it's really easy for authors to take them personally when they know who gave what rating. It's nice to have a simple way to impart your honest opinion of a package without having to justify it through a review, but that honesty is a lot harder to accomplish when there's a tendency for people to take offense to anything below a 4. If people want to go into detail about their thoughts on a release they have that option already, meanwhile there's nothing for those who just want to record their initial rating on playing something, contribute their opinion to the user score and not make a public commitment to it.

I can understand concerns about people using anonymity to unfairly influence ratings (which still shouldn't matter), but the only difference currently is that any fake accounts created for that purpose would need original names, which hardly makes it more difficult, and I really don't think it would be a problem in the first place, again because of the size of the community. If names are to be attached to ratings, they should at least be more visible to everyone instead of existing in this weird semi-hidden state, though I'd once again prefer not having them visible at all for the reasons I've discussed.

Markie

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

Also, Not to seem biased but people who are simply players have nothing really to gain or lose from rating anonymity. Mappers do, in the form of weird social politics and therefore have more of a dog in the race. Did Mapper A rate my maps low? I will be more harsh to their maps ratings. Did Mapper B rate my maps high? I will be more lenient.

Spirit

Administrator

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

A release like sm180 publicly paints a different image (although of course comment authors will always be named and anonymous ratings would not have protected the user that harassed there) and I have seen a marvelous amount of abuse from mappers towards players so that is just not true.

Someone elsewhere asked about letting each user choose if there ratings should be anonymous or not. That would require an big amount of thinking and work to implement (just start thinking about how to do aggregate ratings then without allowing for someone to guess someone's rating) so that's not an option.

I wonder if even having ratings was a mistake in the first place. It created an environment of competition where there shouldn't be one. Created perverted incentives and comparisons on an artificial level. Maybe we also need to make them less fine grained at least, like round them to the nearest integer and drop the order by anything more detailed.

triple_agent

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

Such as 'Spirit' pointed out earlier, there is still way to check on the details, which makes the entire situation a bit confusing; like with a pain medication, which soothes the superficial symptoms without addressing the real issue or even less so, the root cause.

If you want anonymity, make it a legit anonymity, not a half-assed anonymity.

Besides, the only thing I would be afraid to see with names attached to the votes given, is how few people are actually responsible for all the traffic going on.

I wonder if even having ratings was a mistake in the first place.

In my opinion, there is nothing that 'Quaddicted' does, which would particularly fuel competition.

Last edited by triple_agent (2022-02-14 23:02:03)

radiatoryang

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

If there's no consensus on anonymity, maybe de-buffing the ratings on map profile pages can help a little bit in the meantime. Rounding sounds like an OK bandage / compromise.

You could even go further: replace the displayed number with the word "Not for Everyone" (< 3.0) or "Good" (3.0+) and "Excellent" (4.5+) and that's it. That way, it's more of a basic quality control metric, and individual ratings don't skew the publicly displayed rating so much. (And then hide the exact number rating behind a tooltip hover for those who can't shake old habits)

Last edited by radiatoryang (2022-02-14 23:31:28)

Markie

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

A release like sm180 publicly paints a different image (although of course comment authors will always be named and anonymous ratings would not have protected the user that harassed there) and I have seen a marvelous amount of abuse from mappers towards players so that is just not true.

I think my point still stands in that I meant that players having nothing to gain or lose over mappers with anonymity. Anyone, mapper or player alike can be subjected to abuse. Players just can't be review bombed in addition to that.

triple_agent

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I think my point still stands in that I meant that players having nothing to gain or lose over mappers with anonymity. Anyone, mapper or player alike can be subjected to abuse. Players just can't be review bombed in addition to that.

I understand your point; enmity could arise between mappers if one mapper downvotes a creation of some other; artistic ego and stuff, immature behaviors. Relevant point, but if so was the case, active mappers could embrace the honorary habit of not voting altogether - wonder though how much of voting would be left going on at all.

On the other hand, if you think that expressing your opinion from the standpoint of a respected mapper, may hurt the feelings of someone else or handicap further public reception of their work, maybe just set up another account on 'Quaddicted' - more anonymous account - and vote through that, for the sake of peace.

Still, some kind of private checkbox, counting the map as played, would be handy. If one has rated the map, the checkbox value, should be automatically updated, although unnecessarily the same for having put a comment.

Last edited by triple_agent (2022-02-15 09:29:39)

Brendy_C

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

On private votes: I don't think anonymous ratings would be gamed very much in such a small community. Instances would likely be rare, and it's probably easier to notice and flag unexpectedly high-rated maps than it is to defuse and repair instances of nasty chat or sniping.

Nailgun to my head I'd go with anonymous ratings. But honestly, I'm happy with either option. Numbers mean very little and as a newish mapper the comments are what's valuable anyway. It's there where the sense of community comes from, I think, rather then from seeing "Big_Lad97 rated The Colonnade of Chaos 3 out of 5".

(Oh but just to dispel any regret about introducing ratings in the first place, ratings probably do help users sort their thoughts and keep track, so short of a replacement system with some sort of "I've played this" tracker and "I liked this" tracker, the ratings system works!)

Spirit

Administrator

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I have made the following changes so far:

- Removed the display of the user's rating in comment threads
- Only allow user to see their own stats at https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/user … <USERNAME>

And I plan to replace the exact aggregate ratings with values rounded with no decimal places.

Spirit

Administrator

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

And I forgot:

- Removed the ratings log from https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/log.php

h4724

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

- Removed the display of the user's rating in comment threads

This is the only one of these that I disagree with personally. Ratings add some context to the review, and I don't know that there are many people who want to have a rating, leave a review and keep their rating private. That said, this version isn't terrible, just not my preference. Everything else is a positive change in my opinion.

RickyT23

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

Excellent!  Now the zealots can review-bomb with impunity :)

I mean look at the new map "Hard Driven" - how do you think the author of that map feels to have it pooped on by two people?  Encouraged to make more maps?  Maybe the people who review-bombed it don't want them to make more maps?  It's pretty pathetic, how people do that - I think it should be transparent, personally, then at least we know who is in the clique.

And another thing that I think is completely rotten is how people are going on maps that were made in 1997 that were considered good and saying stuff like "This was a 5/5 in 1997 but by modern standards its not even a 1, so I gave it a 1/5".  If this is you, then seriously - get in the sea.

Last edited by RickyT23 (2022-02-22 18:06:21)

Spirit

Administrator

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

Yo, no need for being so angry and personal around here, Ricky. How did public ratings actually prevent users rating out of spite in the past? Was there any meaningful discussion of specific incidents somewhere?

There isn't really anything wrong with people not being into 1997ish maps and marking them as they like. Or is there? Why shouldn't they be free to rate as they like? There are two kinds of ratings I think, those one does for oneself ("I played this and found it to be ...") and the ones that people do for others ("This should be rated as ... in a global setting"). To each their own.

You are making a strong case about what I said about needless competitiveness.

RickyT23

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

Nah - you're right, it's a free-for-all.  All is fair in love and war, I guess.  But you have my opinion.

Also - I'm not getting personal.  I didn't call a single person out, I think it's unfair to say that I was being personal.  I also think it's unfair to say that I was being angry.

Also I think it's a little strange that you don't think it's acceptable for mappers to be competitive.

Last edited by RickyT23 (2022-02-22 20:11:21)

triple_agent

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I mean look at the new map "Hard Driven" - how do you think the author of that map feels to have it pooped on by two people?  Encouraged to make more maps?  Maybe the people who review-bombed it don't want them to make more maps?  It's pretty pathetic, how people do that - I think it should be transparent, personally, then at least we know who is in the clique.

I guess the way how 'Quaddicted' averages out the ratings, does not help any further.

I volunteered to beta-test 'Hard Driven' and in the forum thread, dedicated to this map, I expressed my liking of it. Somewhat recently I saw the map was rated poorly here on this portal, so I went and rated it 4/5; it was a good map - not the one I would remember forever or save for yet another playthrough, but it was decent and the idea behind it, was great. I would definitely wish to see more from the mapper behind it.

I do not know why would someone rate 'Hard Driven' low or what are the reasons behind one such rating, I can only express my acceptance.

Anyhow, I find it personally comfortable that just in case I write a comment, I will not be judged by someone else for myself having rated the map this or that; in the comments, I would rather have someone read what I write, rather than have what I wrote, overshadowed by a single number.

I tend to be a humanist, mostly, y'know.

Anyway, in order for the average score to be representative, it needs to base on quantitatively sufficient base, which means, the average of three votes, is a rather poor sample, probably misleading - is it not better to have none at all, under such circumstances?

EDIT:

There are two kinds of ratings I think, those one does for oneself ("I played this and found it to be ...") and the ones that people do for others ("This should be rated as ... in a global setting"). To each their own.

Very true, 'Spirit'. Doing something for others or because of others, is a total misunderstanding.

There isn't really anything wrong with people not being into 1997ish maps and marking them as they like.

Aye, some people just rate the thing as it stands to them actually, while some people like to embrace more historical perspective; you cannot just cut out those who "do it wrong", because it may emerge that they eventually do make sense, only we dislike them or their ways, so we push our bias.

We are all beautiful people here, some simply need to learn how to express themselves better.

For the notion of being driven, I tend to think of myself as a person who is "hardly driven", rather than "hard driven".

Last edited by triple_agent (2022-02-23 03:49:05)

RickyT38

Guest

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

IDK - I mean it's not such a huge deal, I just think that some people seem to give crazy low scores to maps which are clearly decent.  I think that some people are pretty mean-spirited in this way.  I'm competitive sometimes, it's true, and I have been impulsive and spiteful as well, I'll admit it.  But I'm not publicly trying to shame anyone in particular.  And I also can't do it.  I did leave a spiteful rating or two, but I ended up reversing those ratings to more objective ratings, because I respect other people's work (sometimes more than I respect the person, on the face of it).  I have always been a bit emo and a bit impulsive :D  Once I have calmed down, objectivity reigns supreme.
Just to make myself seem even more bipolar, in a way I think we need harsh critics as well as generous ones.  I do fear that anonymity will be abused though.  Hopefully that fear will prove to be unfounded. <3

triple_agent

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I do fear that anonymity will be abused though.

Fear is a mind-killer, y'know. Fear is a little death.

I think 'Quaddicted' should have coherent policy when it comes to anonymity and that policy, ought to be transparent. Not like to give an impression there is anonymity and then be like: now little bug we teach you a lesson, look, you are exposed. That is small minded.

Madfox

Member

Re: User ratings, should they be public or hidden?

I was a bit confused to get critics from an Guest, who didn't liked my map. Normaly I wouldn't mind, it is your own opinion. This time it did, because after a friendly question he started blaming me down with facts like I wasn't even capable for producting a good map.
Then he started to knock down his commands with : in other maps you also did..,
I wonder what people concern with other mans work, while themself they stay anonime and have not made a quake map ever! They even don't have to login.
User ratings? Where is my viagra?