#1 2021-07-05 14:24:58

theFALL
Member

Mother Scrag

Interesting beast the Mother Scrag.

Here we see her still very angry at a beast it's already killed.

https://easyupload.io/pjee12

Quite useful to use her attack as a deadly shower ;)

#2 2021-07-05 17:42:53

triple_agent
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

This thing has a very neat model. Simultaneously, "wizards" are one of the most annoying enemies to me.

#3 2021-07-06 05:46:25

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

@triple_agent
Yes indeed it does and I've no idea of its real name but
Mother Scrag seemed appropriate enough.
Which wizards do you refer to? Is it the ones that fire
the skulls?
I was contemplating the power of the newer Quake bestiary.
The twin sworded knight can kill pretty much anything quickly with
its melee attack. But as for pure power, putting aside for now any
complexity of attack, the toxic Shambler kills many monsters
with one blow and the green blob attack is pretty hefty.
Any thoughts?

Last edited by theFALL (2021-07-06 05:48:03)

#4 2021-07-06 06:29:50

triple_agent
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

@'theFALL', I think the enemy rooster in 'Quake' is pretty random in appeal, as well as in the way how enemies are being introduced to the player. I mean, strong ones can be introduced sometimes even before the weaker ones, such as the ogres can come before the enforcers.

In most FPS games, enemies are introduced to the player in certain order, remarking the hierarchy of power. In 'Quake', this seems rather shaken. I do not really know if this is good or bad; for sure it has some advantages and some drawbacks in terms of psychology behind the design.

Anyhow, the monsters I called annoying, are the "Scrags". There are no wizards in the original 'Quake', as far as I remember, if to think of "wizards" as robed and hooded humanoids casting magic missiles while reading some leatherbound books. Nonetheless, there are such "wizards" in 'Arcane Dimensions' - these are called "skull wizards". The "skull wizards" have their own presentation map in 'Arcane Dimensions'. The map, is codenamed: "ad_test7" - very good one, by the way. I also love the "Place of Many Deaths" map in 'Arcane Dimensions' - codename: "ad_dm1" - even though I have encountered some minor performance issues playing it, which is rather weird. Both the maps feature "skull wizards".

The 'Arcane Dimensions' version I refer to, is "1.81".

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-07-06 06:32:40)

#5 2021-07-06 10:36:59

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

Indeed, interesting when orges or higher are thrown at you early in Quake maps and it
does make the in-fighting more rewarding and vital when you can entice
the lower orders to assist in the slaughter.

Ha! The scrags are a blocking pain in the butt.
Superb AD maps you mention. AD lifted quake to a all new magical
level and so look forward to any new releases.
Your issues were lag in ad_dm1?
I've found a couple of variations in wizards, although fundamentally the same
humanoid, mostly in their attack and ranged projectiles.
Working on a small video to demo.

#6 2021-07-06 10:50:12

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

This green monstrosity -

https://easyupload.io/ptwcuv

... which I might entitle the 'poison skull wizard?'

#7 2021-07-06 11:16:09

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

Is this the Skull Wizard? The Lost Souls projector?

https://easyupload.io/ygkdn8

#8 2021-07-06 13:21:04

Cocerello
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

It is an interesting model, but i think it would be better with a different attack to the Wizard-Scrag. Also, by the way, what's that ball near its abdomen?

triple_agent wrote:

Anyhow, the monsters I called annoying, are the "Scrags". There are no wizards in the original 'Quake', as far as I remember,.

Wizards and Scrags are the same enemies. It is just that the internal and ingame names are different and it happens with some other too. You can see it here: https://www.quaddicted.com/quake/monsters

Last edited by Cocerello (2021-07-06 13:25:57)

#9 2021-07-06 13:28:02

Gila
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

Cocerello wrote:

Wizards and Scrags are the same enemies. The internal and ingame names are different. It happens with some other.

Yep:

Grunt: monster_army
Scrag: monster_wizard
Fiend: monster_demon1
Cthon: monster_boss
Vore: monster_shalrath
Spawn: monster_tarbaby
Shub: monster_oldone

#10 2021-07-06 16:08:57

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

@Cocerello

That's cool - I had no idea they were the same enemies and
also Gila's list of enemy categories. This would explain triple_agents
remark.
Just skinned up different?

Ah yes - the ball. It's a diamond shape that seems to show up on certain creatures
and above the player's head when one combines the following:

AD
Sock's test chaos map - 666 selected
Random map

Also, some maps show arrows which I'm guessing are
monster paths although very happy to be corrected.

#11 2021-07-06 16:19:15

Cocerello
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

So is that ''mother scrag'' a enemy from AD mod or you made it yourself? I am getting confused.

#12 2021-07-07 01:52:29

triple_agent
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

theFALL wrote:

Indeed, interesting when orges or higher are thrown at you early in Quake maps and it
does make the in-fighting more rewarding and vital when you can entice
the lower orders to assist in the slaughter.

Monster infighting in 'Quake' is a valid tool in the hands of a skillful player, but I think it goes too far. Monster infighting should be given more strict conditions, limiting the occurrence.

Cocerello wrote:

It is an interesting model, but i think it would be better with a different attack to the Wizard-Scrag.

Agreed, the "Superscrag" or the "Mother Scrag" or what is the name/codename for it, would be better off looking with some attack type more along the line of what the "Droll" casts - or perhaps a lightning strike, like the "Shambler" does. There are, though, already some airborne creatures casting lightnings, those gargoyle-looking pterodactyls, so perhaps the case could use another consideration of sort.

Cocerello wrote:

So is that ''mother scrag'' a enemy from AD mod or you made it yourself? I am getting confused.

We discuss already existing assets here. Just giving them homebrew nicknames. The "Mother Scrag" is featured in the 'Arcane Dimensions' - as far as I remember, it is included in a map "ad_heresp2", based on 'Arcane Dimensions' version "1.8" - but I believe the creature made first appearance in the 'Quoth' arsenal.

@'The Fall', there are certainly way more maps featuring the "skull wizards" and dark magic theme in the latest version of 'Arcane Dimensions', but I have to shamefully admit that I did not yet complete all of it.

Speaking of the "chaos mode", it is interesting, but in my opinion, 'simonOC' pays too much attention to it. Personally, I am not much fun of randomness and rogue-style gaming, therefore I could be biased on it.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-07-07 01:56:01)

#13 2021-07-07 10:49:15

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

@Cocerello

Not my work Cocerello - beyond my skill set.

'Mother Scrag' appears when you run Sock's Chaotic Trinity
'test_chaos1.zip' map which runs within AD.
I've not seen this creature elsewhere but it will appear in
non-AD maps as long as you have placed the map in AD's map
folder and loaded Sock's chaos map first choosing 666 etc.
Hope that makes sense.
I'm just scanning thru triple_agent's reply and I see the Mother Scrag
does appear in map ad_heresp2.

#14 2021-07-07 11:06:11

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

@triple_agent

Forgive my ignorance but what is the Droll?

Indeed many more AD maps featuring skull wizards.
I believe I have them all  40+
Just firing up ad_heresp2 now as I can't recall the map.

simonOC still down - I was interested to see what lies within.
Yes, random indeed as it does unbalance many maps creating
creature chaos where mystery and contemplation was
perhaps the intention.

#15 2021-07-07 17:09:45

triple_agent
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

theFALL wrote:

Hope that makes sense.

Nope, but it is okay.

There is a lot of unnecessary confusion going on around here indeed.

The "ad_heresp2" is a map based on 'Arcane Dimensions', but it is a map to be downloaded separately from the 'Quaddicted', at least speaking of the current 'Arcane Dimensions' version.

The 'simonOC' is a lead creator of the 'Arcane Dimensions'. I figure out you mention the website of similar title as his nickname, though.

"Chaos mode" is an exclusive trait of 'Arcane Dimensions' and "Chaotic Trinity" is just a map promoting it. It is also possible to play any other level in 'Arcane Dimensions' under the "Chaos mode" - simply find the "Chaos mode" switch in the 'Arcane Dimensions' start map and you will have it - works with any map.

"Droll" - I may have misspelled it; but it is an entity.

I am afraid that in order to continue this conversation, we need to get some knowledge straight.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-07-08 04:41:31)

#16 2021-07-08 09:54:39

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

Yeah just played ad_heresp2 and indeed the Mother Scrag does make an appearance.
Perhaps the first appearance in Quake?

Yep I see...I did a search for Quake simonOC and found http://www.simonoc.com
- still in maintenance.

Oh I understand now. I've been using Chaotic Trinity map to invoke
chaos mode. Didn't realise all built into AD any how.

Another monster I haven't seen outside of 'chaos' is this
beast which I will call for now 'The Toxic Shambler' (until corrected)

https://easyupload.io/bkgf02

#17 2021-07-08 11:54:28

Cocerello
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

To clarify some parts of the thread.

theFALL wrote:

Also, some maps show arrows which I'm guessing are
monster paths although very happy to be corrected.

If you are talking about textures on the walls or button like things, those are to guide the player on the main path of the map. Mayne official and custom maps rely on that, as Quake usually does not have more non-linear maps like Wolfenstein3d or Doom.

triple_agent wrote:

Monster infighting in 'Quake' is a valid tool in the hands of a skillful player, but I think it goes too far. Monster infighting should be given more strict conditions, limiting the occurrence.

That's the mapper work: If the infighting it is too easy or gives issues it's his role to fix it, if it is not on purpose. Some mods restrict it a bit, like Quoth, but from a mapper's perspective it does not change much, truth to be told.

triple_agent wrote:

We discuss already existing assets here. Just giving them homebrew nicknames. The "Mother Scrag" is featured in the 'Arcane Dimensions' - as far as I remember, it is included in a map "ad_heresp2", based on 'Arcane Dimensions' version "1.8" - but I believe the creature made first appearance in the 'Quoth' arsenal.

Then you should note that the discussion is about exactly and from where it comes on the first post. We cannot peer into your mind to know ;)

Also, that modified Scrag does not come from Quoth. It is probably one of the few more or less original enemies in AD.

theFALL wrote:

Forgive my ignorance but what is the Droll?
.

I suppose he is talking about the Drole from Quoth. You can see it here in detail: https://www.quaddicted.com/webarchive/k … icted.com/

Last edited by Cocerello (2021-07-08 12:32:44)

#18 2021-07-08 12:02:10

bmFbr
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

Ok, so let's clear a lot of confusion going down here.
- id probably was on a rush while developing Quake, so lots of monsters ended up having their final names changed, but not the entity classnames themselves (as Gila already noted), as it'd mess up the maps they had already made. Those are the actual monsters in vanilla Quake, they're just called that way internally. That said, the Scrags were supposed to be called Wizards initially, and have nothing to do with the skull-shooting "wizards" you see in AD maps - those were ported from Hexen 2.
- The Scrag Mother was added in AD 1.8, and already shows up in some of the newest maps in the pack, like Tears of the False God for example.
- The "toxic Shambler" is the Boglord, and appears in The Forgotten Sepulcher, among other maps. Besides that, there's also a "fire Shambler" equivalent, which I don't recall the actual name nor in what maps it shows up, but IIRC it's been extensively used in map jams and such.

Last edited by bmFbr (2021-07-08 12:16:58)

#19 2021-07-08 12:47:33

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

@Cocerello

Strange arrows that seem to be more a part of the map
building side of things I think - have a look here:

https://easyupload.io/qobzp0

What do you think?


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...that bast*** Drole - Ha!! Loving him - if it is a him?!!
Great listing site Cocerello.


@bmFbr
Thanks for the info.
Tears of the False God is an outstanding map - thanks
for reminding me.

#20 2021-07-08 12:51:29

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

@bmFbr

Boglord - yeah that makes sense.
The Forgotten Sepulcher - yes, I had a hunch I'd seen it
before but I was hazy about it.

#21 2021-07-08 17:50:55

triple_agent
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

Cocerello wrote:

That's the mapper work: If the infighting it is too easy or gives issues it's his role to fix it, if it is not on purpose. Some mods restrict it a bit, like Quoth, but from a mapper's perspective it does not change much, truth to be told.

Part true. Mappers - such as every other developers - work with what the technology allows them to work with. If the mappers wanted to reduce the infighting between opponents in 'Quake', they would either have to very specifically arrange the combat scenarios involving various types of opponents - which does require some know-how - or maybe throw only solitary or only uniform-kind enemies against the protagonist, which is rather ridiculous, on the long run.

In my opinion, the enemies in 'Quake', should be divided in classes and the infighting, ought to be allowed only between the classes. Some classes, perhaps, would never involve in infighting, such as the grandest creatures - like "Vores" and "Shamblers". The latter, are manifested to destroy the protagonist, which makes their purpose stand beyond other gripes. The point, though, is not about the philosophy behind the entity - whether the "old ones" do or do not infight -  as it is more about the function.

@'theFall', the "Fire Shambler" is featured in "ad_heresp1", as far as I remember. The map, is listed as a recommended addon for the 'Arcane Dimensions', as listed on the 'modDB' website of the project. It seems now that the 'modDB' is a main hub-portal for the 'Arcane Dimensions', as well as a place where you can contact the 'simonOC', if you needed to.

Speaking of technology and developers in the universe of digital gaming, I have a reflection on it. The "golden era" of gaming - which would roughly be the last decade of the XXth century - was mainly revolving around fascination with technological progress. Nowadays, we tend to recognize that the pattern of progress and constant catching up with the progress - chasing the wind, if you will - itself becomes dull or missing the vital emphasis. The digital gaming, in the future, is perhaps going to shift into a more artful, holistic experience kind of an offering; gravitating towards more post-modern values, if to have the technological progress fascination as a modernistic approach.

#22 2021-07-09 13:05:42

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

@triple_agent

Many thanks for the info. Will take a look at modDB as you describe.

Just a thought on the progress of gaming, as you mention, and the fascination
with tech progress which is a valid point.
My first experience of FPS (the only games I really play)
was Doom. I progressed, as I suspect many of us did,
to Doom 2 - Duke Nukem - Quake - Quake 2 - Unreal -
Half Life and so on...(give or take the actual order)

The only modern FPS's I dip into now and again are COD games.
I find myself returning to Quake and Half Life to satisfy my
gaming needs as modern games don't. I seem to just find
myself thinking "wow the graphics are amazing" - but I wonder
if there's any new maps on Quadaddicted??

As for VR - not sure if I'd projectile vomit or not but I do
game on a 52" screen.

#23 2021-07-09 15:35:12

Cocerello
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

theFALL wrote:

@Cocerello

Strange arrows that seem to be more a part of the map
building side of things I think - have a look here:

https://easyupload.io/qobzp0

Don't know. It is the first i've ever seen those arrows and i have played hundreds of Quake custom maps.

It has to be an engine or mod specific option or at most a map specific feature, and from a recent one, but I doubt they are related to pathing due to the pathing for enemies in Quake being a lot more ortogonal, save if the arrows show a simplified version of it.

You got me curious. Which map and engine is that from?

triple_agent wrote:

If the mappers wanted to reduce the infighting between opponents in 'Quake', they would either have to very specifically arrange the combat scenarios involving various types of opponents - which does require some know-how - or maybe throw only solitary or only uniform-kind enemies against the protagonist, which is rather ridiculous, on the long run.

Not really. It is a lot simpler and more fundamental to make an encounter in Quake where infighting barely happens than what you think it is. Most maps' encounters (including many of mine) are at a point were implementing that does not require anything special or just need very minimal changes in enemy spawn points. You should try, mapping is a lot easier than back then.


triple_agent wrote:

should be divided in classes and the infighting, ought to be allowed only between the classes. Some classes, perhaps, would never involve in infighting,

You can check. As i wrote before Quoth does that already and it doesn't change things much from a mapper's side. it is not that we need to change much to achieve a similar end.

triple_agent wrote:

would roughly be the last decade of the XXth century - was mainly revolving around fascination with technological progress.

That would be more about videogames around 2005-2015. Back then there wasn't more fascination about that save, maybe, in the last years of the decade, and games that focused on that did not sell well and did not even get good reviews on magazines. Rise of the Robots come to mind, or many of the titles of the first years of 3d platforming till Mario 64 showed a viable way and studios copied it.

Last edited by Cocerello (2021-07-09 17:46:47)

#24 2021-07-10 07:12:54

theFALL
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

@Cocerello   Hi

I'll take you thru the steps I take in order to produce the arrows:

1. Quakespasm engine 0.93.2
2. Load in Sock's map test_chaos1
3. Select 666 and then use command developer 1 (I think this may trigger the arrows??)
4. In this case I load in ad_lavatomb
5. You can see the arrows more clearly here - https://easyupload.io/p7we5b

#25 2021-07-11 12:39:05

triple_agent
Member

Re: Mother Scrag

Speaking of the models and the "Mother Scrag" or the "Superscrag" among them, it is noteworthy how the "Superscrag", does explode after being defeated - at least in the maps that feature the entity, which I saw. With the "Superscrag", this is a nice effect, but I would rather opt for the grander models - such as the "Shambler" or certain newer entities, coming from 'Quoth' and 'Arcane Dimensions' - to also annihilate after the defeat, possibly dealing certain occasional damage along the way of event. That is due to the size of the model, which may cause glitching or blanking out if to walk on it - or rather, through it. Basically, all "old ones" should annihilate somehow once being defeated. Effects and implications, may differ.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-07-11 12:43:18)

Board footer