#26 2021-08-19 03:27:12

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

I have not played any 'Quake' official expansion pack, so I cannot comment on the weapons from these that you refer to or otherwise relate to your opinions in this regard.

If I would have to vote for one weapon to become removed from the original 'Quake' arsenal, that would be the rocket launcher. Howitzer, is a much more interesting gun, when it comes to the rocket ammo utilization, while for a long range "sniping", there are other guns.

Sniping in 'Quake' - sounds like a topic.

Even though it is not very much 'Quake' style, while making things complicated, what about a gun that uses two ammo types simultaneously?

Anyhow, much speculation - I do not think it is really worth it, nor do I think it is particularly going anywhere.

I do not like the laser cannon idea, the way you put it.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-08-19 03:42:34)

#27 2021-08-19 05:15:51

I Like Quake
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

You don't have to, they were merely exemplifications of my awareness of other weapons in Quake.

I take it you're not a fan of rocket jumping, then.

You mean the Laser Gun idea...? The Laser Cannon is already implemented in Scourge Of Armagon.

#28 2021-08-19 05:41:00

Gila
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

triple_agent wrote:

I have not played any 'Quake' official expansion pack

Why not? Anyway, I think they are worth playing, at least once. And they do have some power-up artifacts different from Quake.

#29 2021-08-19 06:01:34

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

I Like Quake wrote:

I take it you're not a fan of rocket jumping, then.

Within the realm of what this forum thread is about, it is a good challenge to perhaps think of a rocket-jump function, that would employ rockets - which means, an ability - without employing rocket launcher or even howitzer, for that matter.

I Like Quake wrote:

You mean the Laser Gun idea...? The Laser Cannon is already implemented in Scourge Of Armagon.

Is that what you were talking about, speaking of the laser cannon? Anyway, it does not really matter.

Gila wrote:

Why not?

Because I do not believe it is worth it, better than any well rated release on the 'Quaddicted'.

#30 2021-08-19 06:10:01

I Like Quake
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

The Laser Cannon is a powerful weapon from Scourge Of Armagon. It uses Cells and fires projectiles like those of the Enforcer, but continuously and at a high rate, and these projectiles bounce off walls.

#31 2021-08-19 08:28:51

Gila
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

triple_agent wrote:

Because I do not believe it is worth it, better than any well rated release on the 'Quaddicted'.

Then original Quake content is not worth playing as well?

#32 2021-08-19 15:49:46

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

Gila wrote:
triple_agent wrote:

Because I do not believe it is worth it, better than any well rated release on the 'Quaddicted'.

Then original Quake content is not worth playing as well?

To be fair, yes - but simultaneously, I imagine 'Quake' has more integrity and simply good taste to it, than the counterparts we talk about - neither 'Quake', nor 'Quake 2', are commonly known to have official expansion packs, that would meet the quality level of original game, by a good margin. Likewise, could be the case of 'F.E.A.R.'. I guess it is just hard, to make a good addon.

On the 'Quaddicted', creators have merits that help them perfect their creations, as compared to official, for-profit releases. It is a different realm of mindset, as well as different dynamic of the art. Besides, technology has changed locally throughout the years and recent innovations, help uncover what 'Quake', can become, not just what it was.

I believe nobody nowadays is interested in playing 'Quake' from 1996 - as it was back then - apart from case study.

We are sliding towards offtopic, therefore a new topic or we conclude this early.

Speaking of rocket-jumping without guns, maybe the jump-boots, could eat rocket-fuel. Not truly a rocket-jumping, but still a way to utilize rocket ammo for the sake of enhanced movement.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-08-19 17:42:21)

#33 2021-08-19 19:39:11

I Like Quake
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

Looking online will reveal that the reception for the mission packs was overwhelmingly positive and that they're quite popular: they have wiki pages, fandom pages for individual levels, monsters, etc., on YouTube they have playthroughs, speedruns, and reviews up to this day.

Having played them myself I can attest to them being well thought-out, professionally done, and rich: they have extra weapons, extra monsters, extra ammo, extra power-ups, detailed maps, bosses, they're colorful, and engaging.

On the contrary, a lot of people are intrested in old-school Quake, as the release and the reception of DOPA show, and recently we've had the Q25 Limits release, and we have Tremor coming up, to give a few examples.

Last edited by I Like Quake (2021-08-19 20:40:14)

#34 2021-08-19 20:00:53

I Like Quake
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

Oh, and it just so happens that only 1 hour ago Bethesda Softworks released on YouTube a video called "Quake - Official Trailer (2021)", in which they invite the viewers to experience the refurbished original Quake and its mission packs, plus one new mission pack.

#35 2021-08-20 04:09:44

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

@'I Like Quake', good for them, good for you. I do not feel like owing anyone an apologize or anything. Keep calm and do what feels right for you. Apart from that, do you have any input regarding the topic premise?

#36 2021-08-20 04:23:17

I Like Quake
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

It never even crossed my mind that you would owe anyone an apology, it's all good.

Yeah, it is in my first post for the thread.

#37 2021-08-21 03:02:59

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

Speaking of:

rocket-jumping without guns; maybe the jump-boots, could eat rocket-fuel. Not truly a rocket-jumping, but still a way to utilize rocket ammo for the sake of enhanced movement.

I wonder if under such condition, the boots - or the jump-pack - should be accompanied by some form of a rocket-blast effect upon the ignition, possibly dealing minor splash damage in narrow radius, as well?

#38 2021-08-21 04:36:19

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

Speaking of:

Even though it is not very much 'Quake' style, while making things complicated, what about a gun that uses two ammo types simultaneously?

My thoughts drift towards the perforator gun. You see, the proportion of difference, between a shotgun/rifle and a doublebarrel shotgun, does not match the one between a nailgun and a perforator. Many players, would use the basic rifle, for the means of "sniping", while the doublebarrel, does a decent job at close range and nothing beyond that. The difference in application, is clear.

The perforator, in original 'Quake' terms, does nothing beyond what the nailgun does, except for doing it faster. I argue one does not need an entire new gun, to explain why a thing happens faster. What could do for that sake, instead, is a "vania"-type upgrade for a primary tool, which is the nailgun. I believe nobody would complain if the nailgun, was somewhere made to shoot faster, without any backtrack to the slower mode.

Which is why, the notion of making the perforator, a summit of not just nail-based guns, but of shell-based guns, as well. What I mean by that, is - yes, it would use two ammo types simultaneously. The basis, is to make it an auto-shotgun type of weapon, shooting clusters of nails at higher velocity, for increased damage - relative to the basic nail damage - in a rapid succession, albeit not in a fluently continuous manner.

EDIT:

I do acknowledge the efforts in the 'Copper' mod, to give the perforator a spread effect - thus weakening the long range precision of this nail-based gun - while still, it does not satisfy me as a counter-argument for the issue put.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-08-21 08:04:50)

#39 2021-08-21 10:43:59

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

Once I speculated about the origins - or the originators - of energy shield in first person shooter games. I came to conclusion - surprise, surprise - that the earliest exponent of the notion, was 'Quake 2', with implementation of a device: the power armor or the power shield.

The power shield, was an item - an artifact - which means, it could be turned on or off, as an addon to all other defensive values one would already have. It was using energy cells - the ammo shared with energy-cell based weapons, such as the hyperblaster or the BFG.

The power shield, protected from projectile impact - as far as I remember, it mostly protected only from the frontal impact - but paradoxically, it provided also quite a neat, partial protection against environmental hazards, even the magma! The latter, would not probably stand a test of time, balance-wise speaking - I do not frankly remember the exact clockwork of the power shield, though, therefore, a questionmark.

In the original 'Quake', we do have cells and we do have very few weapons, using cells - even though when a weapon already does use the cells, it does so massively. Perhaps - such as with rockets - some alternative way of given ammo utilization, could come in handy?

Should I underscore at this point, that the power shield, is to replace the traditional "colorful" armors.

One could argue, that the power shield equivalent in 'Quake', alters the "meatball" style of 'Quake' health and damage system. I reply that this only changes the resources in demand, still remaining perfectly within the "meatball" paradigm. The resources in demand, shift from actual medkits, mainly to energy cells. The medkits, are there as before, but to a lesser extent - becoming crucial when the power shield, is down.

Instead of time-based recharging - as it is in some other, non-"meatball" styles - the shield, would require cells to be maintained. Notwithstanding, it is the health factor, that means game over at the state of zero - not the shield.

To spice things up, there could be damage inducing pathways, dealing damage directly unto the health and only partially minding the shield or even despite the shield altogether. Understandably, the latter, should be carefully weighted, otherwise, the gameplay momentum, becomes broken.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-08-21 11:11:18)

#40 2021-08-22 01:09:38

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

In the context of latest entries within this thread, I would like to bring the statement of 'Copper' mod, regarding difficulty balance problematics, as put in the text description of 'Copper' version "1.16" - what I find convincing:

Monster behavior in 'Copper' is consistent across all four skill levels, and attack frequency is no longer used to artificially inflate the difficulty of Nightmare skill.

Nightmare, is now distinguished from Hard by reducing the player's maximum health from 100 to 50.

Easy, Medium, and Hard skill levels are still distinguished from each other by the level design.

The highest difficulty level in the game [Nightmare], should reward system mastery and high-level play. Monsters in vanilla Nightmare, are aggressive to the point of becoming exploitably broken -

The only things that should vary between skill levels, are things which are readily apparent and instantly understood.

If a map has more monsters and fewer health items, the player understands the harder situation at a glance. If instead, the monsters have more health and the health items give less, the difficulty is increased in an opaque and hidden way -

Since lowered max health is clearly reflected on the HUD, it is immediately understood by the player and instantly teaches them that playing differently [on Nightmare], is necessary.

The key design-tag here, is: transparency.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-08-22 01:17:09)

#41 2021-08-24 13:48:37

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

Speaking of transparency driven design, the lightning-gun in original 'Quake', is definitely not an example of having this principle cultivated; with the hidden trait of limited range. It is not about pointing out really whether the old days did mind transparency or not - it is about pointing out how impractical it is from sheer gameplay perspective.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-08-24 13:51:25)

#42 2021-08-27 06:35:32

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

In this thread, we speak mostly of adding to the game, some things potential. What about going the other direction, instead? What I mean by that, I will explain shortly.

The way I imagine it - in a toolbox of every mapper, there is a major asset, called: choice. One makes use of that privilege-asset as soon as with the first decision, regarding the map aesthetic theme. In order to make a choice, one must disinclude more than one will include. This quality, makes the asset of choice, remind the art of sculpture.

The piece of sculpture, according to what I was told, begins as a block - a shapeless object, full of rough matter; arguably speaking. It is a mess, one would say - a mess that asks to become organized. Organization, is proceeding entropy - the narrowing of possibilities. The same, happens to the universe we live in - from chaos, to order killing life; I refer the "heat death" theorem.

With taking away certain strategic elements, said block, begins to remind a thing an artist has projected upon it. Perfect sculpture, must maintain balance, between being neither too much, nor too little - there must be just enough, making coherent sense, within acceptable range of proportions.

In terms of mapping - using my imagination, rather than experience - if I do not like the hitscan combat system, while having to relay solely on vanilla 'Quake' conditions; I may simply disinclude all enemies dealing the hitscan damage. If that is not enough, I may even disinclude all protagonist weapons that deal the hitscan damage. In order to avoid depriving the game of having anything available at all, in my vision, I will need to make sure that there is something essential to use or fight against, for the player, to enjoy the map under common conditions.

That is why, I often pay attention to what kinds of decisions - allowances and disallowances - has the mapper done, design-wise, as well as how coherent these end up looking to myself, in the end.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-08-27 15:00:44)

#43 2021-09-05 16:55:09

triple_agent
Member

Re: New 'Quake' artifacts

The question, is: torch equivalent.

Some may say: muzzleflash, is enough - albeit it doubt the economics of it.

Some mods, come up with flashlight. While the flashlight, is a modernday answer to the function of classic torch, unnecessarily is it the only solution - especially within the limitations of "Fitz"-based 'Quake' engines.

Following the trail of 'Aliens versus Predator: Classic' game, from the year 2000 - why not introduce alternative illumination tools, such as flares? The flare, could either be thrown or "burnt on the protagonist". I am against the notion of a flare, having to be ejected from a gun only, like a grenade - but in the end, the flare itself, could remind of a grenade in shape, illuminating an area and lightly exploding at the end of duration time.

If to think about it, though, the option of "burning the flare on protagonist", conflicts with the notion of a flare exploding, therefore, I would stay with the flares just being a throwable object.

The protagonist, would have infinite amount of flares, but only being allowed to use a limited number of them, at a time; say, only two or three flares may burn simultaneously.

Another example, is the night-vision mode, which could roughly become a proper artifact, with limited duration - giving a crystal-clear image of an area, with somewhat distorted colortones; until certain arbitrary line of sight, therefore not good for "sniping", perhaps.

Last edited by triple_agent (2021-09-06 08:01:32)

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