#26 2022-10-21 22:30:07

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

FYI this issue is not resolved but I focused on other things recently. The thread at Slipseer was deleted without any prior discussion with me. I will pick it up again and see if we can either finally get some actual solid proofs for the accusations made or preferably some public apologies and "redemption" from the abusers themselves.

#27 2022-10-22 19:41:35

Mazu
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

The only way you can get any redemption from this is by forgetting it and not posting more public threads about it. :^)

Maybe the stove top needs to be a bit more hotter so you won't misplace your hand on it hundreds of times over. I will never forgive you until you admit you were wrong by taking things public and stop.

Have you maybe considered that by doing this you are causing harm? Talk to them privately who you need to talk to.

#28 2022-10-22 23:29:06

mukor
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

nvm fuck it, i read this whole thread and it ignited a flame in me.

i have lots of opinions for a number of people in this thread and theyre not nice.

this is needless and divisive. crocodile tears. what a colossal waste of mental energy. solve this in private or stick a fork in it, its over with.

imagine spending a month hashing out something in a public thread thereby polluting a new website with a thread of negativity and ignorance, when it all should have been private from the get go but spirit didnt want to put in the effort to contact slipseer staff.

The Quaddicted twitter bio is as follows:

"Your replies are unlikely to get read. :o)"

The contact info for Spirit on quaddicted.com is as follows:

"You can send me mails at spirit ät quaddicted döt com. If you know how to, please use PGP, I'll reply faster to you as reward."

Spirit literally hosts readme files with email addresses to slipseer staff and im supposed to believe its hard to make contact with them. What an utter display of ignorance.

If anyone comes off as hard to communicate with here its Spirit. Solve this in private or just forget it.

Waste. Of. Time.

Poorchop wrote:

A few [people*] who just discovered this game and the community a few years ago don't have any real power of those of you who grew this community from the ground up.

reductionist as all hell. absolute drivel and i used to like you poorchop.


[*Edited by Spirit, matching the edit in the quoted post]

Last edited by Spirit (2022-10-24 17:11:57)

#29 2022-10-23 14:24:50

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

Spirit wrote:

FYI this issue is not resolved but I focused on other things recently. The thread at Slipseer was deleted without any prior discussion with me. I will pick it up again and see if we can either finally get some actual solid proofs for the accusations made or preferably some public apologies and "redemption" from the abusers themselves.

I should have given more context as information in the unpublished (not deleted, sorry!) thread is not available at the moment.

Fairweather and I are talking via private messages and I think the attribution/plagiarism issue, that initially lead me to tweet, has been solved. What is not solved though are the accusations of me being an abuser, harasser, saboteur and what not by Slipseer staff and people closely affiliated to the site (at least to my best knowledge).

Those accusations were done in public and thus I am trying to defend myself from them in public. People are publicly calling me an *long-term* abuser to a wide audience and now expect me to not try to clear up these accusations in public? That's not fair in any way and can only end if they either retract their statements publicly or if they are in fact right, some actual proof is provided and I am "convicted".

#30 2022-10-23 14:24:59

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

mankrip wrote:

That said, these two tweets are completely unnecessary. Outside people that weren't interested in these discussions in the first place don't need to be exposed to it. I'm sure that anyone who saw the original discussion in Twitter and want to know more about it are already keeping an eye in both the Slipseer and the Quaddicted forums. There's no problem in deleting these, and it would make the Slipseer staff feel safer to discuss the whole situation in a more friendly way.

The public don't need to know how this whole situation will be solved. Me, and I bet that most other people too, only wants to see a final result being reached — and preferably a peaceful one.

Thanks! but sadly that is not how social media and attention works. To those exposed to the tweets I am now a toxic, *long-term*, *targetting* abuser and harasser. This must be cleared up in public and on the same medium as the accusations themselves. I can't publicly call all this mess solved and done if I have no certainty that the abusers do the same. I tweeted about the thread as a signal that I consider the accusations to be false and unfair.

As I said repeatedly, I regret having posted about the issues on Twitter but since we are in this situation now, the resulting mess needs to be publicly posted there as well. Communities are scattered and information rarely gets spread cleanly. I will definitely post about the results on Twitter so those who saw earlier tweets have a chance to read the results. Obviously this includes a clarification of the accusations which I myself implied against the site.

#31 2022-10-23 14:26:03

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

Mazu, please read what you posted here and reflect your suggestions to your own behaviour.

Especially the

Mazu wrote:

Have you maybe considered that by doing this you are causing harm? Talk to them privately who you need to talk to.

I will send you a mail in a moment, so we can try to solve the issues in private if you prefer that.

Like an abusive bully you are trying to force me into an admission of guilt for something I did not do and for behaviour where I consider an allegation to be extremely dangerous and damaging. You are doing this by threatening abuse, by posting insults, insinuations of mental illness. We won't be able to have any kind of positive progress if you keep acting like that.

This is an issue that we need to solve properly and fairly, can't you see that? *If* I was in fact a person as toxic and abusive as you say, what reason would I have to not take your actions as motivation to continue whatever I am supposedly doing. And if I am not, how will the hatred and abuse make me feel?

I am being extremely open and honest here (e.g. in the thread at Slipseer https://archive.ph/I2Zxv), please try to see that and reflect this in your own actions. If you do not see it, please say what makes you think what you are implying. Your accusations and full on hatred make it sound that this is not about a couple of misunderstood tweets. What did I do that makes you hate and abuse me?

For the record: I have approached fairweather in private messages on the Slipseer website and we seem to be speaking in mutual understanding and respect. I have privately talked to some other people from the Quake community and everyone I talked to has stated clearly that they do not see me as an abuser or harasser, just kind of a "dipshit" sometimes.

Mazu wrote:

Their personal problems caused by stress in proxy by you is enough reason for me to call you out bringing things in public, for this reason I'm speculating myself that you might have mental disorders because you cannot stop. And taking jabs towards you for that reason.

I can not stop trying to solve this mess if people paint me as someone who has a long history of targeted abuse against others. Those are serious allegations and either they are true (provide proof please!) or they are not. In the latter case, those accusations should be retracted.

Mazu wrote:

And I do not sign anything someone else has said like Aleks in this case, which you guys are trying to lump me together with his claims. I'm being wrongfully judged there too, so I will just return the favor to you guys.

and:

Mazu wrote:

I don't see any difference on what you are doing now compared what I'm doing.

I haven't insulted you, I haven't said that you must have mental issues, I have not threatened you, I have not implied that you are someone who schemes and targets people for abuse for a long time. Those are things you have done to me.

Mazu wrote:

My actual accusation: You are posting issues of slipseer publicly against the wishes of slipseer folks. Why I'm mad at you.

My offer still stands to remove the original slipseer post on twitter and I will remove mine harsh attacks towards you about it. Why I said you should delete your twitter account is because you mentioned it somewhere before that, just to point that out it was your idea first.

From the things you said it does not sound like a tweet is the only issue you have with me and the things you insinuated are really really ugly.

Once this is all over, I will actually post about the solution to the attribution/plagiarism issue so people know that and how it was solved, including an apology about bringing it up on Twitter instead of directly talking to Slipseer staff and the explanation why I did it. This only seems fair!

Will you also post retractions of your accusations against me?

#32 2022-10-23 14:26:41

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

mukor, I could not agree more about this being a colossal waste of time and energy. But people have publicly accused me of being an long-term abuser and harasser. Allegations like that just can not be shrugged off. In the minds of people who read those tweets and posts I am now a horribly toxic and actively abusing person. Surely you can understand that I can not just say, ok, cool, and treat them as factful statements? Imagine a group untruthfully calling you a rapist in front of a wide audience, could you simply laugh it off? If I was just insulted, I would not care. But I am not an abuser or saboteur. There still have been no examples or "proof" for those accusations while I on the other hand have outlined my feelings and actions that led to this escalation in great detail (https://archive.ph/I2Zxv). I feel like I made a fair-play pass and in return get tackled again by a mob of angry misguided players.

I posted on the Slipseer forums as a gesture of reaching out, so that those who are involved do not have to make accounts elsewhere. I don't like talking behind people's backs, when they are not around.

As for ease of contact:

Is "spirit ät quaddicted döt com" really too obfuscated? The "ät" is for an "@" sign, the "döt" for a dot/period. Two characters that are in pretty much any mail address and thus I considered that antispam measure very easy to interpret. If you have a better suggestion I would be happy to hear it. For now I have added instructions ("replace the ät with an @ and the döt with a .") so hopefully really no one has any issues mailing me.

And me trawling through readme files to find contact addresses, apart from being quite a jump in complexity and effort, I mean ... I don't see how that is even still a relevant suggestion at this point in the discussion. I already publicly said multiple times that it was not a good idea to post a those tweets. We are in agreement there, no? Or are you insuniating that I actively meant to weaponize
(Actually, I did bite but it sadly was another waste of time... -> I checked the text files in at least ctsj2, hwjam4, sm220-108, snack2, pun and bored for means of direct contact for people who I assume are admins of Slipseer (there does not seem to be a public list?) and found nothing. Would you be so kind to point to where I should have easily found those contact details in your opinion?)

#33 2022-10-23 14:26:59

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

Aaaaaaaaaaanyways... The more important accusations were made by AlekswithaK_ (https://twitter.com/AlekswithaK_/status … 2777308160). Where is their proof? Several big names (Markie, Mazu, Makkon, Fairweather) have liked all those posts and maybe they would be so kind to explain: How and where did I allegedly harass Fairweather for months? Where did I publicly mock Fairweather? What kind of lying and bad faith behavior were you seeing?

I will try to privately contact them to ask these questions. Hopefully they are interested in actually finding solutions. I was told AlekswithaK_ did not provide any proofs when asked on the Quake Mapping Discord but instead went on a rampage of insults and hatred, so I won't try to contact them.

#34 2022-10-23 15:49:06

Mazu
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

Right, it seems like you have solved the issues with the people related to the whole issue, Spirit. Some information got to me a bit late from previous post.

You can go deal with Aleks personally for all I care if you really want that. I don't think you will get many answers from him other than insults. I too think that you are just going to waste your time and energy.

I've had my own reasons too to be angry about this situation, which I sadly cannot share.

I'm just happy I don't have to keep going at this anymore. Please do not continue to talk about slipseer / quaddicted relations publicly and I won't have any reason to be upset either. Thanks.

#35 2022-10-23 17:01:23

alekswithak
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

Here I am. I'll try to keep this as civil as possible,  but I will admit that based on Spirits most recent messages it is clear to me that nothing they were told was properly understood or they are just being incredulous and dishonest.   I have a feeling what I will say here will just fall on deaf ears or not be properly understood, but I'd rather just say my peace and be done with this because it needs to end.

The public targeted harassment to which I referred is the months-long thread that Spirit has maintained on the issue - that is the proof.   The reports that I refused to provide any proof are greatly exaggerated. I did not need to because everyone had access to the thread. The very thing we were talking about was the proof itself, and for anyone to not understand that was ridiculous to me, so I assumed people asking for it were acting in bad faith. Spirit, I know you do not agree that this is tantamount to harassment -  you are wrong. 

As for you publicly mocking Fairweather,  I do refer to your "Yikes" message left in the Quake mapping Discord.   This was viewed as disrespectful and mocking by all of the Slipseer staff and others.   Once again, I know you probably feel that this does not qualify as mocking, but if that's the case then you need to re-examine your own behavior and how it is perceived by others.

I am also aware that Fairweather has brought all of this to your attention and detailed everything - we saw it in the original thread that you posted on our site, and this was presumably covered in further private conversations. It is clear to me at this point that we are all just talking past each other. That said, for you to still claim that you have not been provided proof is willfully dishonest.  You have been explicitly told why your actions were perceived they way they were and why the thread itself is tantamount to harassment.  You can disagree, that is your right, but you are lying when you say that none of this was brought to your attention or ever addressed. 

As far as finding solutions, I'm not entirely sure what you mean,  but if you are inclined to contact me and would like to discuss the matter privately you can reach me by email, Twitter direct message, or Discord.   I don't necessarily believe you have any interest in speaking with me on the matter but my door's always open.

#36 2022-10-23 19:00:34

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

Thanks Mazu! Lots of things fly past us in heated conversations. Ask I asked above: Will you explain and retract what you meant by "I'm getting so tired of hearing this and people targeted by his antics. FW and slipseer does not deserve this harassment." then if I publish the closing statements to Twitter?

-----

Thanks alekswithak!

So now you are saying that these 3-4 tweets http://web.archive.org/web/202210070627 … e.ph/FjPm5 are the sole thing you took offense at? Your exact words in https://twitter.com/AlekswithaK_/status … 2777308160 are

Let it be known that Spirit has engaged in targeted harassment of Fairweather for months prior to even Slipseer going live and publicly mocked FW for daring to make a site they wanted for the community.

That does not match the timeline in any way. Slipseer was made public around July 8th. My tweet is dated July 13th. You say that I harassed Fairweather for months (so whatever I supposedly did, it was not one single event) prior to the public release of the site. What do you mean by that?

You are saying that me posting this "yikes" was a public mocking of Fairweather. This was not directed at them in anyway. And I am sorry, but if you choose to construe an expression of surprise as negative mocking, then do not blame me for that. I have spoken to others about this exact chat excerpt and they did not mirror your feelings. You could have asked me for clarification if it was unclear and so important to you. I have also reflected on that many days ago in the thread at Slipseer, maybe you did not see it?

You also said "He has a history of lying and bad faith behavior within the community" for which you again provide no proof. Where did I lie? Where did I behave in bad faith?

You implied that there were direct interactions between us which should have me understand whatever you are on about. What and where are those supposed to be?

You implied that I had published private conversations. Where and which ones are those supposed to be?

alekswithak, you actually said more and worse than what you are providing an explanation for here. If you thought that what you said matches those 3-4 tweets and the "yikes", then sure, I understand your confusion as to why I did not understand what you were accusing me of. But in fact what you said does obviously not match those explanations and reaches much deeper.

So no, it is still not clear what you are accusing me of and we need to either see some proof or you to retract those accusations so this nonsense can finally end. As it is right now, you are abusing me by posting unfounded lies and slander.

#37 2022-10-23 19:11:31

alekswithak
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

"That does not match the timeline in any way. Slipseer was made public around July 8th. My tweet is dated July 13th. You say that I harassed Fairweather for months (so whatever I supposedly did, it was not one single event) prior to the public release of the site. What do you mean by that?"

I the time prior I was referring to was the yikes prior to the site going live.  In my anger, I equated these things.

You also said "He has a history of lying and bad faith behavior within the community" for which you again provide no proof. Where did I lie? Where did I behave in bad faith?

Your failure to retract / correct the original allegations of plagiarism is willful dishonestly IMO, aka lying.  The thread still exists, and no effort has been made by you between its creation and the start of October to clarify that there was a misunderstanding about how submissions on quadmin function in SS, thereby leaving us open to public ridicule and judgement under false pretenses.

"You implied that there were direct interactions between us which should have me understand whatever you are on about. What and where are those supposed to be?"

You and I spoke directly with one another on QM back when you posted the yikes.  Infiniti and others can corroborate this interaction, they were present.

"You implied that I had published private conversations. Where and which ones are those supposed to be?"

This was referring to you quote tweeting me in real time.  I was not talking about you publishing private conversations, but rather making it a point to bring more visibility to things i was saying in real time.  you asked from permission to post interactions, and i said you were already doing that, which was correct.

If i need to explain to you why your original thread is harassment, which i know others have already, it will be awhile, so bear with me while i prepare a write up.  I do not have energy for this right now, so it will be later.

Last edited by alekswithak (2022-10-23 19:14:50)

#38 2022-10-23 19:19:31

Mazu
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

It is quite clear what I was saying with that statement in bringing up issues on twitter by mentioning slipseer people against their wishes. The entire chain should not have happened in the first place let alone being doubled down 3 more times.

Where that lead after that is completely different story and shouldn't concern you, Spirit. Even if I hate your guts for it.

#39 2022-10-23 21:31:27

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

alekswithak, so me saying this "yikes" was the "targeted harassment of Fairweather for months prior to even Slipseer going live" and how I "publicly mocked FW"?

alekswithak wrote:

Your failure to retract / correct the original allegations of plagiarism is willful dishonestly IMO, aka lying.  The thread still exists, and no effort has been made by you between its creation and the start of October to clarify that there was a misunderstanding about how submissions on quadmin function in SS, thereby leaving us open to public ridicule and judgement under false pretenses.

I left my original tweets up as proof of what exactly I said. Censoring things that were said is rarely a good idea. This way people can see what was actually said instead of hearing interpretations from third parties. There was a tweet near https://twitter.com/quaddicted/status/1 … 5287598080 that explained the "quadmin" account (sadly deleted now), so that false allegation from me was quickly cleared up *right there*.
As I tried to explain in the Slipseer thread, I felt similarly ridiculed when I/Quaddicted was singled out in the rules again and again with overly strict demands that were never actually requested in such ways. This was also not publicly explained as far as I know, so right now this feels a couple of people pointing their fingers at each other.

So your "He has a history of lying and bad faith behavior within the community" also just meant those 3-4 tweets? You replied with the above statement to my question about it.

alekswithak wrote:

You and I spoke directly with one another on QM back when you posted the yikes.  Infiniti and others can corroborate this interaction, they were present.

I don't remember, can you share what was said? If it was in a private or group conversation, I am ok with it being published. I am also asking someone else who is still on the QM discord to show the public logs so no one has to guess.

alekswithak wrote:

This was referring to you quote tweeting me in real time.  I was not talking about you publishing private conversations, but rather making it a point to bring more visibility to things i was saying in real time.  you asked from permission to post interactions, and i said you were already doing that, which was correct.

Ok, I see, point taken!

alekswithak wrote:

If i need to explain to you why your original thread is harassment, which i know others have already, it will be awhile, so bear with me while i prepare a write up.  I do not have energy for this right now, so it will be later.

No, this was made clear early on and I feel like I already explained numerous times how I realise that and that I want to apologize for it. Thanks you for the offer though!


The 3-4 tweets I already dissected in more detail than necessary and I already said I would close that off with a proper statement about it being solved. The accusation about the "yikes" seems ridiculously out of context though but I guess I can understand how it could be interpreted as an expression of negative/disappointed shock(?) (but why in a disrespectful and mocking way? Not sure. I am not a native speaker though...).

-----

Mazu, does this mean that your tweet also is about that single 3-4 tweet thread? "Getting tired" to me sounded like you implied something with more history. Sorry if I misunderstood that. And I agree that the repeated bickering about the rules on Twitter was an idiotic and hostile thing. If you look at how very negatively towards me/Quaddicted they were worded from my perspective though, I am sure you would have reacted angrily as well.

#40 2022-10-23 22:52:42

Mazu
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

"Mazu, does this mean that your tweet also is about that single 3-4 tweet thread?"

Essentially yes, but I had an extra undisclosed reason to react even harder to it. Probably why it is more aggressive than it should.

If you have anymore questions about this you can ask me privately on email. I feel like you guys can sort the rest of this out here.

#41 2022-10-23 23:34:10

mhc
Guest

Re: Harassment accusations

It's hard for most people to admit that they've messed up, especially with the peanut gallery watching.
I don't think you are going to get any more detail or precise apology if they've done you any ill. I think it'd be best for everyone to move on. Those in the future that are interested in looking back on this moment will (hopefully) know better and make up their own mind as to who was acting out of line.

But some advice to some of those eager throw mean words around: People are watching and will remember your attitude. The community (and video-game industry, to those that care) is smaller than you think!

#42 2022-10-24 01:20:35

dumptruck_ds
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

At least these posts won't get deleted.

#43 2022-10-24 06:08:03

Mazu
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

This community indeed is small enough to worth sacrificing over wellbeing of someone. I don't care how people will view the situation at all, its too petty to be a major issue. It could've been much worse as where it was headed. Nothing compared to war on Ukraine or overall world crisis going on right now. I can't believe some people would even think otherwise.

People who stay quiet about problems probably think there is still more value in that. To be fair I should've backed people publicly before when there were more unfortunate events back then. In retrospect it feels dumb that I didn't. If there is anything to apologize then that is a much better reason to do so.

#44 2022-10-24 21:27:20

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

I am locking this over night as I think everything to be said here has been said for now.

The other day I had reached out to several people with diverse perspectives on this and received very helpful responses. Texts for a final statement are prepared and sent for review to a diverse group of people who were kind enough to talk to me, to check that I don't unintentionally say bad things again. Once checked I will post them and we can hopefully put an end to all this with mutual satisfaction.

#45 2022-11-07 17:31:40

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

I have posted a final statement to Twitter, as that was where the issue happened: https://twitter.com/quaddicted/status/1 … 3281589248

Quaddicted/Spirit wrote:

It has been explained to me that these tweets https://twitter.com/quaddicted/status/1 … 2301323264 were received as harassment & that my continued refusal to deal with these issues privately was abusive. I understand this now and I am deeply sorry.

Also explained was that the accusations of me being a longterm abuser and targeted harasser were about these tweets plus a "yikes" when Slipseer was announced. https://www.quaddicted.com/forum/viewto … 7263#p7263
To me and others the accusations sounded like issues on an even more damaging scale.

That's why I have been so annoyingly petty & investigative. I wanted to see proof of what I thought was implied but the issue was right there, before my stupid face... I can see how this, to someone who thought everything was clear & said, was even *more* harassment.

I am glad that this was finally cleared up and wish we had all been communicating clearly about it in the beginning, it would have prevented much MUCH hurt for many people involved.

I wish the Slipseer project great success! The renaissance of Quake is amazing and we can never have too many sites and projects. We are all here to have fun and should consider the actions of others with empathy, not fear and anger.

Many heartfelt thanks to those who constructively talked with or to me and those who supported all involved parties in various important ways. I know that this was hard and I highly appreciate your empathy.

As a consequence and because this mess reminded me how social media is in general not good for our health, this Twitter account will be purged and disabled. A new bot for random daily map tweets is @m0rb's @quaddicted_motd <3

PS: **SORRY** for the long delay in posting this! I had already spoken to various people from all around the spectrum of this controversy, including a draft of these texts, but then had to sort out some meatspace issues first.

If you prefer not to visit Twitter:
https://nitter.net/quaddicted/status/15 … 3281589248
https://archive.ph/FM3lC
http://web.archive.org/web/202211071729 … 3281589248

#46 2022-11-07 17:55:49

dumptruck_ds
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

Glad to see this "resolved" in some form. Very sorry to know some people got away with abusing you in the process. And others, who I used to admire, stood by and "liked" comments that were over the top and completely undeserved.

But yes, time to move on and keep things civil and positive. It's just a damn video game after all.

Last edited by dumptruck_ds (2022-11-07 18:01:11)

#47 2022-11-07 18:00:50

Spirit
Administrator

Re: Harassment accusations

I think there was a lot of misinterpretation and I can understood people who took either "side". Let's put it behind us.

#48 2022-11-07 18:01:56

dumptruck_ds
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

Amen. Here's to the renaissance continuing!

#49 2022-11-08 10:37:32

Gioyo3aa
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

I can't figure out why in the world this message would be perceived as harassment, but I assume my post will also somehow be perceived as an attempt to pouring gas on the fire, so I'll stop there. Let's leave kindergarten and get back to Quakin' (can't wait for Mjölnir ...).

#50 2022-11-10 12:35:30

xaGe
Member

Re: Harassment accusations

Awesome to hear!

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