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Thank you Daz!
Since Quaddicted is not available right now, here is an archive link to use in the meantime for the texture wads. https://web.archive.org/web/20150321152711/https://www.quaddicted.com/files/wads/ "* The map can be any quality level (speed, turtle, full detail)"
What's speed, turtle and "full detail"? typically the jams are vanilla quake.
Speed map = 24 hour map turtle map = speed map but a bit longer to make (id software quality) full detail = intense detail, mfx/sock/tronyn/skacky etc there's some wads above in the OP. I think it's a loose theme, those are suggested. As long as it follows the fire and brimstone theme (some of the reference shots are base themed)
There ARE WADs for this or their aren't?
There are two wads in the download for you to use. You don't have to use them, and you can use other textures of your own choosing as well! Must be a regular SP map, no multiplayer, no mods? Single player, vanilla Quake! Speed map was 1 hour, then extended to 100 mins. Then extended to as long as you wanted, since that's how long people were taking anyway.
I vid a video about it too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTkCht6nkU0
I stand well and truly corrected then...
I wouldn't be able to make a decent map in an hour that's for sure. I'll likely do a few small informal streams
http://www.twitch.tv/warrenmarshall That selection of inspiration images is fucking brilliant.
Anyone who does this: http://daz.fov120.com/images/jam6/theme2.jpg i will marry them. I wouldn't be able to make a decent map in an hour that's for sure.
Nobody could. That's why it was extended :) I should have added something about that to the main post, but I think it is generally assumed that most people use FitzQuake / Quakespasm these days.
I would test all the maps in Quakespasm as that has the most up to date features. Also, don't forget
http://www.wantonhubris.com/obj-2-map/ If you're so inclined. :) Nobody could. That's why it was extended :)
Actually, the switch to 100 minutes came when everyone wanted to do more single player maps. 1 hour deathmatch maps weren't so bad to make, but we added the extra 40 minutes so that single player maps could reasonably be done. Back on topic, I'm planning to do a Rubicon Industrial base on a Lava world. I miss those speedmaps, people were experimenting much more, probably because the time investment was so little.
Is it good if I make a modern city with red sky on its first part and then having its second part filled with lava and brimstone?
Or should I just make a map just like the second part? The point of jam themes is to give some basic direction to go. Though I might recommend just going for the second half only because 2 weeks is less time than you think! Simple plans work best.
3:27 AM - negke: haven't thought about anything yet
3:27 AM - negke: i might try to make something though 3:27 AM - Scampie!!: jam6_negke HYPE!!! Just wanted to say that last night was awesome. Multiple people streaming and everyone chatting it up. Was a lot of fun.
Felt like the old days again, only higher tech. :) Fun! Love stuff like this that focuses everyone on the same game/goal... based off of http://daz.fov120.com/images/jam6/theme2.jpg
http://shoresofnis.com/temp/jam6_terraintest.jpg max + warren's obj2map. gonna see how far I can take this before it stops compiling... it's really fun not having to deal with brushes. ^_^ Chaining Castle of the Dark Ages and 5 Rivers Land would fit perfectly
necros
REALLY nice. Love how organic it feels. I can't believe that all collides correctly. Do you take any special steps in Max? Like, making sure everything is triangles and snapped to a grid or anything like that? The max obj exporter has an option to export all faces as triangles, which is what I use. Other than that, I'm using basic box modelling techniques, extruding edges and faces and moving vertices around. I'm not paying any particular attention to grid:
http://shoresofnis.com/temp/jam6_terraintest_max.jpg There are currently a few collision problems (and a few missing faces) but I suspect that is because the map is currently unsealed, so the backs of the spike brushes are still being compiled which I'm sure is causing problems with QBSP. Once the map is sealed, those problems should hopefully go away, at least mostly, although that really will be the make or break test: if faces are still missing and collision is too broken with a sealed map, we'll know that this method doesn't work. :P I've run into problems doing it so you might want to seal sooner rather than later so as to waste as little time as possible if it implodes. :)
Going to be trying some rocky geo tonight myself... yeah, that's probably the smart thing to do. The real danger is running out of planes. IIRC, there are a limited number of unique planes that you are allowed to have and terrain, for obvious reasons, uses up those planes quickly. otoh, I'm doing this in bsp2, so I have no idea what the limits are. I might be fine.
Wicked stuff..
I think you're safe with planes, but leafs are limited to 65k in several engines (qs, markv, fte) in spite of bsp2. Others have unlimited leafs I think (rmqe, dp?). I should port the unlimited leafs from rmqe to qs some time. If you're BSP2, I wouldn't worry about it. The compiler/engine will break LONG before you hit the wall there. :P
1- W O W!
2- About collision, making it all func_illusionary and caulking with clips wouldn't solve it? I might do the reverse and have func_wall skip textured brushes if there are only a few collision problems.
Switching compilers also helped, I was using some older ones based off of aguirre's original txqbsp modification. I swapped to use ericw's tyrqbsp (since I was using his light util anyway) and it got rid of all the visual glitches as well as some of the collision ones, so I'm pretty positive about this working out. Mixed face contents in leafnode
I need to start from scratch I think, I decided it would be easier to make an entire lava ocean, then clip my rock brushes out of that. The rationale was I won't have to do any crazy alignments if I just clip from the same material and change the texture on the brushes I want to be rock. Apparently I can't do that. You don't even need to do that. Just make your lava ocean and stick the rocks into it. Intersecting brushes are fine.
you have a skybrush and/or water brush touching/intersecting your lava brush.
or you have a skybrush touching a water brush (sky is actually a type of liquid as far as the compiler is concerned). Wednesday evening (GMT) is ROLLCALL time! Post your wip map screenshots in this thread and leave feedback for other designers wip maps!
I recommend imgur.com for an image host if you were wondering where to upload. I recommend Quaketastic for an image host if you want your screenshots to not be recompressed and in loving hands of our community.
Yesterday got tons done
http://shoresofnis.com/temp/2015-07-26_max.jpg Today just had time to do a small bit... here's some in-game stuff. I love the new dirt mapping and debugdirt mode. So awesome for quick lighting checks. http://shoresofnis.com/temp/2015-07-27_quake1.jpg http://shoresofnis.com/temp/2015-07-27_quake2.jpg I was trying to get into this Jam, but real life has gotten me down. I have had to relearn this stuff after... what? Almost 16 years? I always spend a few weeks a year catching up with the community and playing what Quake has to offer, but I haven't mapped since I made multiplayer maps for my friends at lan parties.
I might not make this Jam's deadline, but still having fun messing around with the editors and playing around with Quake again. My stuff is currently rubbish and I am trying to figure out a decent way to work efficiently with what I want to get out of these tools. I am loving Necros' efforts and might consider using OBJ-2-Map myself as I can do far more good in Blender than in TranchBroom or JackHammer. When I gooned around with that sort of bojangles I gave up because it became unsealable, and mine was a lot less complex than that.
> http://www.dsogaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/doom-quakecon-2015-4.jpg
If Doom 4 was a Doom 3 sequel, that would look promising! LOL, never mind
ANYWAY Couple shots of my weaksauce progress so far... not much else to show yet :P
http://i.imgur.com/ZPV9lsN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/BsBKREV.jpg http://scampie.net/etc/wip/jam6_pipebridge.jpg
Feel like I haven't made much progress either... this area is all I've done and it's not even finished. I have some basic gameplan for the layout at least Tonight I've basically done nothing because I've made, remade, and completely scrapped what would be behind the POV of that shot. Hopefully I will feel inspired tomorrow... or I'll go do some interiors for awhile. Might be that I'm just thinking too grand. http://scampie.net/etc/wip/jam6_pipebridge.jpg
Feel like I haven't made much progress either... this area is all I've done and it's not even finished. I have some basic gameplan for the layout at least Tonight I've basically done nothing because I've made, remade, and completely scrapped what would be behind the POV of that shot. Hopefully I will feel inspired tomorrow... or I'll go do some interiors for awhile. Might be that I'm just thinking too grand. But I have my WIP! :D Anyone? Oh, shut up.
Quick intro: I'm new here, I don't talk much, but I type a lot when I finally say something. This is one of those times, so no hard feelings if you want to just skim this whole thing. I'd love to make a bit more progress before sharing anything, but my sleep schedule is screwed up and I'm too tired to Google "time zone converter", so in the interest of not missing the roll call deadline, here are some shots: http://imgur.com/a/5mxh4 I tried to show an interesting portion of the map without giving too much away. It's a fairly open plan, I don't want to spoil the sense of discovery showing the whole thing at once. It's for your own good, you understand. Yes, that's a good way to rationalize it. In order, the album shows an overview of the center of the map (it'll get extra light as I go along, don't worry), a view under the lava bridge, and a closer view of the structures beyond. The last image is just for fun, and is apparently what my sloppy temp geometry does when Tyrutils' light is run with -extra4. It started when I added -gate 1.0, but has persisted even though I've removed the option. A default compile works fine. I'm sure I'm just asking too much of the tools, I'll get my crap together soon enough. Or maybe my computer will melt. My work so far is primitive as all hell, since unfortunately I'm still blocking out the map. Rough geometry, placeholder textures, just enough to organize my thoughts and get the map running. I've got a grand total of four enemies in there right now, and the triggers, doors and keys are only almost all there. I'm a slug. Part of the reason for that, though, is hopefully justifiable. I spent the two days before the jam started, and a couple once I began mapping, hacking away at Metapyzik's VMF Instance Inserter. It's a third party utility for Source engine games that lets you use func_instances (see https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Func_instance to learn more) in branches of Source whose tools don't natively support them. I've found instances, and by extension VMFII, more than a bit useful in my own projects, and in the run up to this event it occurred to me the VMF format isn't too far from the MAP format, nor are Quake FGDs dissimilar from the Source versions. So my fork of VMFII now supports Quake maps. You can't see the instance contents in editor, of course, since that would require editor-specific support, but they compile properly, name fixup and variable/material replacements work, and I'm using a couple of them in my own map. I'll clean up the code and publish the branch to Github at some point, I just want to use it for a while longer to see if I stumble over any more giant bugs. Keep an eye out here if you're interested: https://github.com/ItEndsWithTens/VMFInstanceInserter As far as everyone else's work: necros: Your work for this Map Jam is making me Map Jelly. I'm a Hammer/Jackhammer devotee, myself, but I'm always fascinated by what comes out of 3D modeling packages with converters like Warren's. Keep it up, can't wait to play! Breezeep: Teasing people with an item is a great idea, but if it were me I'd go a step further and have a monsterjump launch something out of there after a few seconds. matecha: I love that ledge up in the corner. Is that where the stairs lead, or are we getting a glimpse at a potential secret area? Scampie, you posted that while I was writing all this, now I feel like an even bigger schlub. Sorry for the essay! Looking forward to the results, hope I can bang this thing out fast enough to finish on time. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a map to map. 3 wips : http://imgur.com/a/VZPaN
Might need to tweak the light coming from the lava, it could be quite overpowering once I put a ceiling on this area. We'll see. The area in the pics is very interconnected and the player snakes around in it working upwards slowly. I'm currently thinking about how to make this progress interesting by putting things in the players way, etc. Feedbacks : maecha : I like the fire in the lava, that's a cool idea! Looks like you have a good idea on the style you want, expand that bad boy :D Scampie : I'm very happy that there are some different styles in this jam, I was hoping someone would do a tech/lava map :D Rubicon looks like a perfect choice for this style, it just feels hot and corroded by heat when used with lava and that lighting. NICE. Moar pipes required! Would love to see more interaction between the lava and machinery in the level. ItEndsWithTens : Hey :) We stole you from Half-Life 2! I like the size here, and that there are various walkways all over the cavern to crawl around on. Should be cool when it's fleshed out some more. The disco lighting could be caused by an old <mapname>.lit being loaded. try deleting it and see if it goes away. Necros : This is looking fantastic, I just hope and pray that you can get it sealed and compiling ok! Don't go too mental with the detailing, only 1.5 weeks left! :D Hard to say much more about it at this stage. Good luck! :) Breezeep_ : Nice style, Knave is a texture set that will work well for this jam! Looks like you could stick an item in the top arch for the player to get later on (or with a cheeky rocket jump). Keep at it! I basically started over so not much to show so far but
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161473/Misc/MapJam666_A.jpg I planned, sketched, started, deleted part, deleted all, started again and now it's rolling. Don't know about the deadline, though.
Anyway, just came from the Devil's Library, near my workplace: http://www.realgabinete.com.br/portalWeb/ I am not making any real progress as I am spending far more time playing with the editing tools and learning a lot about them. Also blown away by the WIPs so far.
@maecha: your map looks pretty awesome, don't beat yourself up, you are killing it Anyways, here is mine: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ikxhqhoopsz0ze9/QuakeJam_WIP_1.jpg?dl=0 Again, my first map in way over a decade. :-p I can't seem to get Obj2Map to work and wasted a ton of time trying to get it to work and threw away some awesome geometry. Keep it going guys. My contribution:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm196/voiceofthenephilim/jam3_ionousA_zpsg4jycqq3.jpg You know what I'm seeing? I'm seeing a lot of fire, plenty of brimstone, and lots of people mapping cool stuff. Nice one guys keep it going, and if you get overwhelmed, remember small can be beautiful.
Hello! It's still Wednesday where I am, so I hope this isn't too late. Here is an album:
http://imgur.com/a/64F1P Things are going well. I'm learning a lot and having tons of fun. The album includes original level sketches, but I'm re-scoping daily. Fire to be added later ;D I have so many questions: - I feel like I'm using a lot of detail. How much can Quake handle? Is it a hard limit? - I'm starting every brush covered in SKIP and only texturing the faces the player will see. I'm used to this from HL2. Does it matter in Quake? - How are you all getting those in-game lit shots with grey backgrounds? - How do I edit lights for EricW's stuff? Is it done in-editor (Jackhammer) or do I have to edit a text file somewhere? Thank you all for your help so far and for any future help. Everyone's progress is looking very good. Can't wait for this to be the first set of Quake jam maps I play. Apologies for the garbage quality photos. Liking the bridge and rocks! Sketching layouts is always a cool idea but don't go overboard drawing everything, only 1.5 weeks left!
To answer some of your questions : - I feel like I'm using a lot of detail. How much can Quake handle? Is it a hard limit? 64,000 marksurfaces is the hard limit for standard Quake bsp files. If you go over that you switch to the BSP2 file type that EricW's compiler supports. You won't hit any of those limits :) You can check marksurfaces in the bsp compiler log - I'm starting every brush covered in SKIP and only texturing the faces the player will see. I'm used to this from HL2. Does it matter in Quake? It works the same as it does in HL/HL2. If the face is on the "outside" of the map it will be removed by the bsp compiler. it's a nice habit to only texture the faces you need, but its not typically required. - How are you all getting those in-game lit shots with grey backgrounds? I believe the command is "r_clear 1" in console, or set it in your config. It removes the HOM from level gaps! - How do I edit lights for EricW's stuff? Is it done in-editor (Jackhammer) or do I have to edit a text file somewhere? You can add keys/values in the editor using smart edit and using EricW's site as a reference : http://ericwa.github.io/tyrutils-ericw/doc/light.html OR you can use my Jackhammer specific fgd file that adds all the new stuff from EricW's tools into the editor : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33279452/quake4ericwTools.fgd You must use EricW's compiler for any of this stuff to work (obviously :D) ...If I'm running low on time or interest to finish my map, should I hand it over to another mapper?
Thanks for the feedback & kind words guys. :) @ItEndsWithTens, that ledge up there... not sure yet what I'll do with it. Thinking of just putting an ogre up there to start the level off with some excitement hahah :) The stairs do lead up there, but it's more of a diversion. The "primary" route is this ominous pathway over a lava pit which I've just added (still in progress):
http://i.imgur.com/XzPMQpS.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Bu510RU.jpg Pretty happy with how it's all going, being my first Quake map! I made a few levels for Doom and Marathon years ago, but nothing substantial, so it's a mega learning curve. Nice ROLL CALL! I hope everyone feels inspired has renewed vigour to continue hammering out those brushes!
The next ROLL CALL will be on Sunday 2nd! LET'S JAM PEOPLE! Just started with introduction corridor to my level. I'm not even sure that map fits the theme in any way, but still trying something. Don't judge too hard, I wasn't mapping for like almost 7 years, so that is an quick sketch to remember how level editor works. Thankfully Jackhammer pretty similar to Worldcraft/Hammer and I got my self into all of this pretty quickly. Will be grateful for the feedback!
http://imgur.com/a/m59Y0 P.S. You may even notice that second screenshot in the album shows a bit more detailed version with a bit better geometry, texturing and light. Oops, shall I show a screenshot later when I'm editing again, or wait for the next rollcall?
too many amazing shots to choose from, and especially good to see some great work by new faces. HYPE
Join me for black metal and the occasional brush laid: http://www.twitch.tv/ionous
- How are you all getting those in-game lit shots with grey backgrounds?
I believe the command is "r_clear 1" in console, or set it in your config. It removes the HOM from level gaps! FQ85 says this is not a known command. Is there some other as I definitely remember not having HOM when noclipping when I used to map. I've tried it in the config file and direct from the console? WIP:
http://imgur.com/r7hAlhc http://imgur.com/i97Zj3U Mine will likely end up as DLC, but I am having fun playing in editor so far. It's been 10ish years since I built anything. After watching Daz's stream the other day I realized that, yes, I should compile with a batch file like I did back in the day. Then I wouldn't have to wait for compiles to finish
Then I got fancy and added prompts to the batch file asking if I wanted to run the game at the end. I'm even contemplating add functionality where it could look for the PRT file and ask me if I want to bother finishing the compile or not if QBSP leaks Annnnd there it is
@echo off call D:\Dropbox\Quake\Utils\qbsp.exe %1 echo. echo. echo. IF NOT EXIST %1.prt ( Choice /M "Map leaked. Continue compile?" If Errorlevel 2 Goto TheEnd ) call D:\Dropbox\Quake\Utils\vis.exe -level 4 %1 echo. echo. echo. call D:\Dropbox\Quake\Utils\light.exe -dirt -dirtgain 0.75 -dirtscale 1.5 %1 echo. echo. echo. Choice /M "Run Quake" If Errorlevel 2 Goto TheEnd call cd W:\SteamGames\SteamApps\common\Quake call quakespasm-sdl2.exe -dev +gl_clear 1 +map %1 :TheEnd is something that I wish I could use for other id tech games. but sadly I can't seem to get it to work for anything other than q1.
hehe, WarrenM, since Im mapping on OS X I just have the commands separated by semicolon, so it compiles/lights the map and copies it to QuakeSpasm/id1/maps . Launching QuakeSpasm is a single click, and I have +map argument already pre-filled
I started over. This is my progress with a new map during my lunch breaks.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dvcqytcnk66fvzz/QuakeJam_WIP_2.jpg?dl=0 Nothing too impressive, but I am getting things done and feeling pretty good about the results even if things will be a bit more blocky then I wanted initially, but I am already 1/4 the way through it on two lunch breaks and 3 hours this evening. Looks like you guys were right, this map is probably not going to compile
compile.... Time q3bsp? Or just give up.... :P Looks like you guys were right, this map is probably not going to compile
compile.... Time q3bsp? Or just give up.... :P Get the q3bsp ball rolling! If enough people start doing it, it will become a thing. Ehh, then I'll just release it later as standalone.
It would be cool if q3bsp was a thing but lack of lightmap styles support is a real bummer Oh well, Goodluck to everyone! It would be cool if q3bsp was a thing but lack of lightmap styles support is a real bummer
Lack of lightstyles is totally a price worth paying. *firecoal and *hotslag don't start with *lava and are therefore treated as water. They don't hurt when you fall in, in Quakespasm. Am I missing something?
Is the "skip" texturename the same as caulk when making a q3 map? What I mean to say is, will it be a removed face and improve performance in the exact same manner as caulk? Also, is there a texturename to make a brush invisible and not fire-through-able -- if you get my drift. Clip allows one to fire through it. The liquid properties are connected to the texture name, so you need to rename them, include "lava" in the title.
Skip in Quake is not like caulk. It just creates a solid invisible face/brush, without affecting the performance. Requires a compiler that supports it or an additional tool to remove the skip surfaces from the bsp. Note that in Darkplaces, monsters will see the player through 'skipped' surfaces. This wad has fixed versions of *firecoal and *hotslag.
Also, is there a texturename to make a brush invisible and not fire-through-able This is skip. So then, skip textures aren't optimised out by the compiler? So I can save a great deal of time by just selecting a brush and applying the same texture to every side? Seems wrong.
the compiler removes faces outside of the map. in fact, from what I understand, it has never been necessary to put caulk/skip on the outside of brushes because all engine compilers remove those faces anyway.
it is more for removing faces that are necessary to seal the map, but that the player can never see, or for structural geometry hidden behind meshes. Having regular non-skip textures facing the void, touching or intersecting other brushes is totally fine, all of those will be optimized out by qbsp.
IMO skip is good if you need it for some special effect, but it's probably rare that it's important for optimization. It's ROLL CALL time once again! Post your wip images here and leave feedback for other designers!
So I'm not gonna bother posting another screenshot. I'm being a slow mapper this past week.
http://i.imgur.com/S5KHriX.jpg
Well, my caves geo suddenly started not working, so I had to scrap that. Now everything is flat and boring... BUT I figured out lights and sky, so that's cool. I had to shrink everything down to a two rooms. This is going to be a very short map, but it will have all of the basic components in and that was my goal. Scale has been a big stumbling block and wasted a lot of time. Now I know Quake dude is only like 64 units tall I can try to plan for that. Still a couple of things I don't understand: - How can I get the sky to cast light? Right now I have the Map Ambience set, as well as some sunlight and sunlight2 values grabbed from ericw's site, but with Ambience off there is no light from the sky? - How do I take screenshots? I only ever get the console screen as output, never game footage. Anyway, it's gonna be short and dull and blocky, but it will be finished and I'm already excited about the next jam. Can't wait to see everyone else's updates! do you have a _sun_mangle setting? by default it casts like at 0 0 0 which is sideways so normally you wouldn't be able to see the sunlight.
first number is rotation second number is up/down rotation third number is for fun (eg useless but must be there) simple test settings 45 -70 0 should get you some sunlight. Halvgoeden, if you are asking how to take screenshots from the Quake engine, F12 should do the trick in most of them. Or, you can use a screen capture program that allows you put in a few seconds delay before it grabs the screen or a window.
It looks like you have a brush textured with a lava and a non liquid texture on a different side of it (the lava fall) the compiler probably won't like that one bit!
Need to split up the brushes as liquid brushes need to have all sides as as the same liquid type. interestingly enough, this has not always been true. there was a trick in some older compilers where the point contents of a brush were taken from whichever the first (or last?) face's texture. so you could have a brick textured brush, but one side was lava, making the whole thing lava.
Just figured out a ton of Jackhammer mapping tips like "Shift Click" cloning, visGroups, and arrays... or whatever they are called in Jackhammer.
My map is about 5-6 rooms right now, I am about halfway through what I have planned. It is going to be a little underwhelming from what I initially planned but I am aiming to get geometry done by Wednesday and then focus on just fixes, textures and entity placement for the rest of the time. Here are two shots, one is of the "hub" which I have posted before, but updated with my current lighting setup: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lt9zabhhlqob1i4/Quake_MapJam666_WIP_3.jpg?dl=0 and then the first room heading towards the silver key. Very small, but has a cool or interesting feature that I was planning to be at the end of a lot of crazy stuff that I will just not have time to do: https://www.dropbox.com/s/nljfcmb7r09659f/Quake_MapJam666_WIP_4.jpg?dl=0 @Halvgoeden - I had to scrap and start over too. There are a lot of quirky things and a lot of "unlearning" and learning new things I had to do to get off the ground. I just followed all of Eric's example settings then tweeked from there. As for critiques, it is simple but fits the theme nicely. I have to keep reminding myself of the theme and might change my maps textures before all is said and done, but I started with white boxing with default textures then expanded from there. You have the right idea. Keep going! @Halvgoeden - for my screens I just do "prt sc" and then "paste as" -> "new image" in GIMP then crop to the screen. I am running the game windowed over my work environment and it allows me to save to any format.
Map is going to be a smaller affair if it's to have any chance of coming in on time.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161473/Misc/MapJam666/mapjam666_A.png Looks good man. Don't be scared of making a small map. Most of my maps are around 5 minutes to complete.
http://shoresofnis.com/temp/2015-08-02_itcompiles.jpg
Huge thanks to ericw for fiddling with his compilers to get this to work, even when he was working on his own stuff! Also, while I ultimately went with the tyr based compilers, a big shout out to rebb for working on his jury rigged compilers at the start. Both of you are top dogs in my book. for the curious, I ended up going the 'huge func_detail in giant skybox' route. 35k leafs, but whatever, it works. now to actually build the structures and crap in there, and put monsters in...... http://imgur.com/a/Wlfp8
Shot 1 : Special treasure rooms that are opened by finding special buttons hidden in the level. Shot 2 : new stone arch blocking walkway upwards. Shot 3 : Overview so far. Need to finish the top the castle and fill in the walls! Feedback : ShoTro : Looking better! All the coloured lighting is a bit much. The orange from the lava makes sense but the red is very over powering! WarrenM : Love the floating rocks dripping lava. Lovely lighting over all. Can't see any enemies yet! :D Necros : You are insane. Best of luck finishing this thing, it certainly looks great visually. Hard to say anything about any potential game play. Here's my not-quite-as-nice one:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm196/voiceofthenephilim/jam6_ionousB_zpskmopkmes.jpg I'm having serious misgivings about having this ready by Friday. I'll make an effort to wrap up architecture in the next few days, but Daz, would you be open to an extension? Oh, and I'm going to start broadcasting soon: http://www.twitch.tv/ionous My wip screenies:
http://imgur.com/FMJtZcb I've been focusing too much on the none fire&brimstone aspects of my map, so I'm currently making rocks that have smashed into things, leaving some scrumptious chaos and destruction. The discrete nature of surface lights is hard to control - I get obvious lights in many places. Even though it would take more time, I'd like something like _surfacelightdistance to be able to set them closer together. Oh lord ericw, will you make my wish come true? http://scampie.net/etc/wip/jam6_warehouse.jpg
http://scampie.net/etc/wip/jam6_cargobay.jpg not much fire or brimstone here, just some boring interior areas spent way too long making these look cool; I'm looking at the map overall and thinking I'm only about 25% complete with what I want to make with only a week to go :D thankfully, there should be no distractions this week so I should be able to go hard... Daz: ur a special treasure room. not sure I'm a fan of the yellow light from the lava, I'd try dropping the green values a bit and going more reddish. necros: glad you got it to compile... hope you have time to make it fun! Warren: that's looking very cool, but again like I said to Daz, not totally a fan of yellow lights from the lava. long dripping lava is cool as hell though! Shotro: you might want to experiment with a _sunlight2 (and _sunlight2_color) to ease off how harsh the shadows from your skylight are. looking very fire and brimstone though! Halvgoeden: glad you're continue despite setbacks :D scale's a tough thing to really get when you start out in Quake, a future project you might want to try is to make a idbase/tech level, the textures are pretty rigid how you use them which helps you get your bearings on how big areas should be. again, super cool to see new faces in Quake mapping, keep at it guys! of course more shots as I type my reply :D
ionous: fucking awesome geometry. looking forward to this! unbirthday: surface lights are nice for getting a lots of small lights set up quickly, but you might actually want to augment that with some hand placed lights that do some heavy lifting in key areas and you have a lot of control over. I think it's fantastic how many new/returning mappers are coming on board for this jam. Heck, I'm technically 'returning' since I haven't made anything in like 3 years.
Now, back to mapping... I'm not really liking how my map is going and I feel like giving up on it. I'll probably start all over again and stick to a small and compact map. I'll probably even use more time if it's ever given out.
I'm trying not to look incompetent here, but you people aren't making it easy.
Here's what I've got so far: http://imgur.com/a/D30Cx First an action shot of the opening area, with the newly added lava pump station in the background, then a closer look at one of the lights I've added to try and highlight the gates (I'll be tweaking the brightness as I go), and finally a shot of the pump approach. The geometry hasn't gotten any more polished, obviously, but the thirty-odd enemies are in place (it's a tiny map, don't expect much), the triggers are all connected and basic lighting is in. The map plays start to finish, and I guess is ready for feedback about pacing/difficulty/ammo/health/etc. How exactly do we go about testing these things? I don't know anybody who plays Quake, frankly. Do we all just beta test each other's maps? I feel like that must spoil some of the fun of seeing the finished product for the first time, but I'm up for whatever the custom is for Jams. Halvgoeden: Cool arch, I love how something as simple as slightly curving a piece of architecture like that can make it so much more interesting. Have you considered bending that bridge partway across? Make an S shape, so to speak? A squarish S shape, sure, but just something to break up the symmetry. ShoTro: Hey, a Quake 2 map! :P Sorry to break your balls, I know Daz already mentioned the lighting, I just couldn't resist. Beyond that, "a little underwhelming from what I initially planned" is the story of my life, so don't feel too bad about scaling down the scope. I'm still excited to play! Daz: You were right about the unbirthday: Great pillars, I always enjoy trying to come up with different shapes to cap off things like that. And are those cannons in your second shot? Looks like one of those American Civil War era iron sided ships. ionous: Fingers crossed you get everything done in time, I love trapezoids! I want to see the rest of that place. Warren/necros/Scampie: Not to sound like a kissass, but I can't offer anything beyond drool and jealousy, sorry. Quick update, got some feedback from Daz on Twitter about my lighting, and I've just added a fourth image to that album. It's roughly the same shot as the first, but with doubled brightness on my sunlight2. Looks better, so I'm running with it, and the shot is now a more accurate representation of the map's visuals, in case anyone was wondering.
Where is skacky?
Shots look rad, scampie in particular if you can bring that theme to proper fruition! I think skacky is working on a Thief project right now.
As for those feeling discouraged or comparing their work to other mappers, this isn't a competition. The idea is to encourage mapping and avoiding brush creep. I've participated once, and my map was terrible. But making a map that was playable from start to finish within a deadline was huge for me. And don't feel bad when looking at the shots of others. This community has a ton of veteran mappers, professionals, and former professionals. The Quake community is a uniquely golden opportunity to learn rapid, focused, gameplay oriented development while getting feedback from some of the best. If you're new, this is not a final exam. This is the gym. Go lift some brushes. I don't have screenshots yet. But I'm gonna have my level fully functional today or tomorrow... but unlit and using just one or two textures, ugly as a train wreck.
Some awesome screenies here. If I don't get back to my map now, I'm not keeping up. Promise to give more feedback later. Just loving to take part on this. Thanks for the critiques everyone, I am trying to get my crazy lighting under control (if I find something new, I tend to go overboard with it). I will try sunlight2 instead and maybe grey out the red sun aspect of the map.
Loving the maps out there. It is cool that so many different styles of maps are coming out of this theme. Keep up the good work! @ItEndsWithTens - I have to say that those "totems" with the evil grins sell the setting all by themselves. Except for Scampie, who should really incorporate the scraps from the Vigil chainmap or gtfo!
You will actually likely want to combine sunlight and sunlight2, they work best in tandom. sunlight more or less casts a large spotlight, and is responsible for making nice crisp shadows. sunlight2 basically casts ambient light from your sky, which prevents things like dark shadows right in sight of the sky which looks poor.
You will actually likely want to combine sunlight and sunlight2, they work best in tandom. sunlight more or less casts a large spotlight, and is responsible for making nice crisp shadows. sunlight2 basically casts ambient light from your sky, which prevents things like dark shadows right in sight of the sky which looks poor.
I plan on having my player go through a teleporter and fog appearing on the other side of the tele
Yes, I did this on that DM level you liked, but it doesn't work on some video cards. It looks perfect in my desktop but overly bright at work and in my notebook. Some people are saying "the fog is to dense to see the level" as well. I was hoping you used some other setting. My fog level is 0.05, but I'm pretty sure I used 0-255 values for RGB... Gonna test again later.
looking great guys!
Some of the others are promising too. I dont yet know what to make of necros' engine breaking map (need more shots hehe). Firstly, I have been blown away by the amount of interest this map jam has garnered, it's wonderful to see so many new and returning faces to Quake level design and I certainly didn't expect it!
One thing that this means that I hadn't factored in is that a lot of the people building maps have been relearning the tools or learning from scratch which has taken a huge bite out of their available mapping time with less output as a result. Sooo.... DEADLINE EXTENDED BY ONE WEEK. NEW DEADLINE -- 16TH AUGUST 2015! Hopefully this will help people who have been struggling to (re)learn the tools to get that extra boost that they needed to finish up their maps. I must emphasise that this deadline extension is so that you can finish and polish what you are currently working on! Don't get crazy and add 4 more wings and a secret level to your plans! I (and everyone else!) would rather have a smaller but complete and polished level rather than an unreleased behemoth! Keep your scope the same, refine, refine refine! With the deadline extension in place, we won't be having a mid week ROLL CALL this week. The next official ROLL CALL will be next sunday 9th August! With that said, feel free to post wip images whenever you please! <3 I think the popularity here is partially due to picking a theme that is consistent with Quake. Fire and brimstone is right in Quake's comfort zone.
I am committed to another project and won't have time to do anything I'm afraid (plus I'm not fond of the theme).
the last few themes were pretty much the same. Low grav runic was classic and only me and one other person entered!
@Skacky not fond of the theme either, now that you mention.
@Warren Floating things against a nice skybox, all lighted carefully with fog adding depth. What would go wrong? Also, the best use of this lava cascade texture so far. @Scampie I simply loved your base. Just put an empty hole somewhere and a trigger saying "lava goes here" and you're done. @Daz I hope the surprise is a Cyberdemon behind that door. @Void-995 "Lava on the walls, I'm in the shores of hell" - Manny Charlton (sort of) @ShoTro I don't dislike your lighting. It's a design option. Gives a cartoony look. Also, I'm stealing this skull door. @Halvgoeden The maximum height to fall without hurt is 256. A stair step should be 8 tall (maximum 16) and 24 large. The player can jump 32 units tops. I made a "meter level" for this. @adib - By all means take it. I am always tweaking the lighting, so next screen might look totally different.
Quick noob question: Is there anything wrong with using textures from both WADs? With a week extension I will be sure to add insane secrets and possibly the mission ending I had wanted all along. I am getting used to teleporting enemies into locations and restructuring my map so I don't have to do that too often... You will see what I mean next screen of the hub of the map. the wads are just a guideline, something to get you started. you could use any wad, as long as it fits to the theme.
Who needs steps?
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/jam66601.jpg Steps can be any size you want, but it's best to not have to jump to go up them. Thanks for the info. I just identified that as something I was taking for granted, just wanted to make sure.
Golden key area WIP: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9udigoh9hizn7l7/Quake_MapJam666_WIP_5.jpg?dl=0 It's very interesting to see colored lighting in basically every entry given how Jam 1 was 99% white, 1% very subtle yellow.
I'm often watching (or should I say listening) ionous's show.
Can't wait to play his map ! The show is epic, dude ! Was funny to ear the dog barfing (or was it a fiend ?) I think that colored lighting enhances Quake greatly. However, I also think it's too easy to get carried away.
Unless there is an obvious reason it seems a good idea to avoid highly saturated colors. To me it looks much better when its not all that obvious. Most of the lighting colors I've been using have RGB values in the upper 200-255 range, except of course for lava, yellow lights, torches and flames, etc. Are the textures in the included wads lifted from various other wads? If so, which ones? There's some textures in the lavacity wad I'm really liking and it would be great if there are more of a similar style available.
The lavacity1.wad was compiled by Sock from all over the place. I know there are some Daikatana textures in there, and some Knave.wad textures as well.
The other wad was compiled by myself and also contains some Knave.wad textures, Rune.wad textures, and some from Hexen 2 if I remember correctly. Now that Quaddicted is back up, you can browse the amazing texture wad repository over there https://www.quaddicted.com/files/wads/ Guys, don't forget this wonderful Q2 level. Would be nice to see some features from that included.
The floor panels that drop away as you rush to get the BGF for example. Of course I meant the BFG.
And since I am posting again, the area with the big spinning wheel surrounded by lava is great. I think I would've made it in time, an extension now means that the more experienced mappers will have more time to make their maps even further out of reach in terms of quality. It is true though that I've struggled. I forgot about the imprecision of rotation, and I had things in mind to rotate and had to redraw them. I've never released a map before, only dabbled in 3D map design over the years. Because Quake is so primitive (Though I love that) even a 45 degree angled door needs both its angle AND lip changing. There are lots of bizarre things that you just wouldn't expect. Contrarily, I didn't realise Quake had some awesome stuff such as: trigger relays (sweet!), alsorts of other triggers, monster jumping, windtunnels also push grenades!, arbitrarily complex func_train, func_plat, func_door etc. I can do a lot more in terms of mechanics than I thought was possible. I reckon someone could make a soft processor using the trigs as gates. trigger_counter is an and-gate.
@WarrenM I think the popularity is due to Daz broadcasting it on his youtube channel. I never know when the Jams start - I only ever see Daz reviewing them. I think we underestimate the size of the quake community due to it just not being visible on this here board.
I have always checked in and found that the jams were over already.I wish I knew about them sooner. Just knowing that one started via Daz's youtube channel was the only reason why I am working on a map.
"an extension now means that the more experienced mappers will have more time to make their maps even further out of reach in terms of quality."
Yeah but, again, don't let that discourage you. There aren't any prizes, there's no judging I'm getting totallights == MAXLIGHTS on light.exe :( I'm using tyrutils-ericw. I'm guessing it's because I've got a huge lake of lava with surface lights and _sunlight2 set. Is there a way around this? I don't think having a separate lava with the same renamed texture will work, as they will be seen as different by the engine and not align. What is the default MAXLIGHTS constant set to?
Why is there even a MAXLIGHTS to begin with? I mean, I know it's legacy, but it sounds entirely arbitrary and should be removed.
https://github.com/ericwa/tyrutils-ericw/blob/master/include/light/entities.h
#define MAX_LIGHTS 65536 OK, I am trying to get a platform to start from the top of a location then move down to the bottom. I have set the direction up and down with travel values, but all that happens is that the platform travels up to the location I have set, instead of down to the location I have set.
Negative values blow the map up, so I can't seem to get it to function as expected. Help? (Someone is going to chime in with a simple fix, but this is driving me nuts far more then teleporting monsters into the level so far) Holy turd! That's a lot of lights. I had _deviance on the surface light too - turning it off has made it work, but I was relying on deviance to smooth out the ugly discrete mess you get when lights are too far away. I'm guessing deviance splits each light into separate lights that add onto the totalights variable.
Unless you only need a very simplistic platform, it's better (but a bit more complicated) to use a door.
@ShoTro: func_plat is an odd entity, it's sole use is to make platforms that lift you upwards when you stand on them... you can't make them lift downwards.
You can make it a 'locked' platform, where it starts at the top of it's movement disabled, and then lowers down into the lifting position when triggered. You do this by giving it a targetname and target that from a func_button or trigger_multiple or something like that. You can only do this triggering once, after the platform is 'unlocked' by targeting it, it will stay at the bottom and only act as an upwards lift. If what you want is to make a downwards elevator, what you want to do is to make a func_door that opens downwards, and then have it be triggered by a func_button or a trigger_multiple. That will make a brush that moves down when you trigger it, and then return to the top after it's "wait" value. If you want it to toggle between top and bottom positions, set the 'toggle' spawnflag, and put something like a func_button at the top and bottom of the elevator. @unbirthday: yeah, don't recommend using deviance lights willy-nilly. Like you found, they turn the 1 light into multiple lights. Best used for special cases rather than as part of a lava surface light.
Doorlevators are great because you can enter them. Just build a full blown elevator made of brushes and turn the whole group into a func_door. A func_plat is triggered when you're on top of it only.
Cool, that was the conclusion I was coming to. I thought I was just not getting something... nothing else hasn't worked without a small amount of tinkering.
Glad you sorted the max lights problem. Having the limit is just laziness on my part, and it could be removed.
I'm disabling the _deviance feature for surface lights in the next build because it's overkill to use two different light-duplicator methods together. 65,536 lights is a lot of lights!
If you set your grid to 256 and placed a light at every intersection (including up and down) in the entire player accessible area of a Quake map you would only use half that amount. yeah, what happens is the surface lights are already spawning arrays of lights, then each of those lights gets another array of lights. I ran into the same thing, but when you think about it, deviance on surface lights is only necessary if it is a single light (eg: a small wall texture), but not in the case of lava.
i wonder if you could track how many lights have been spawned as part of the surface lighting and if it is over a threshold, do not apply deviance lighting. just some internal tracking, nothing added to the actual map or anything. because you would want to use deviance lights for small 32x32 lights, for example. What I've been trying to do, is control the height that the surface light casts out to. It gives such a glorious colour, and interacts in such a natural manner - whereby blue metal turns violet when at an angle (like it would) and turns red at the bottom, as if its heating up, like it also would. I also get this gorgeous red light bouncing on my columns - but the effect is too strong, and there's just too much red. So I've fiddled with wait/delay/intensity/colour/deviance etc, and the light either goes too high and saturates everything in red, or ends up in discrete lights that are obviously lights, and *gasp* often both of these things at the same time.
You know, I've never really understood the delay thing. You would think that no matter what the delay is light at the source should remain the same, only the distance it drops to a give value would change. But that is not the case.
64 units from the source, with the same exact value for light, delay 2 is far, far brighter than delay 0 (no delay). Delay 5 on the other hand, with the same light value, is noticeably dimmer at 64 units than the default, yet appears be be attenuated even less than delay 2. another way to tweak lights without touching their settings is with the colour! just make the colour darker while not affecting the hue.
Yeah I've tried changing colour to incredibly low values in small steps right down to 0.001 - I have a lavaexperiments.map project just for tweaking this xD It's actually almost the same as changing light, as the intensity is actually the brightness. It's hard to correlate because changing attenuation means you need to change the number entirely - as Rick has begun to notice :). Only difference is, as it states in onetruepurple's link, that light also controls the radius. Unfortuntely you can't give _surface_offset a negative number - as that would pull the light down and might solve the issue (it will still cast through the lava, as it is treated like water). I'm not sure how others aren't having this problem.
If you use delay 0, then you end up with an effect that looks like it's painted red, as natural light is not attenuated linearly. Also, you end up with a sort of wave pattern which truly makes it look spray painted on (i.e. bad) xD Delay 1 is just useless, in that it casts very very far and doesn't attenuate fast enough. Delay 2 and 5 are of course the natural inverse square light, which looks the best - but as I say, set too high and they cast such intense red light that it's overbearing, especially with a red sky too - and set too low, you get discrete blobs of light that looks even worse. If one changes the colour to a darker red to offset this problem, then one ends up with something that is then too subtle near the lava (i.e. not very red), and fades perfectly. The opposite :/ I think a delay 6 might be best, which attenuates AND is additive, so that you can get an intense red right at the bottom, which quickly fades out to a lesser red, which itself then has a long smooth fade out. Or just a light that you can control its z attenuation independently to its x and y. Or just allow a negative _surface_offset. Anyway, I've got a set-up now that I'm quite happy with (using delay 5), but it still means I'll need to put discrete red lights in some areas, to fill in the blanks. Anyway anyway, I'll shutup about surface lights now and let the jamming continue. I also want to end this large post by saying that tyrutils-ericw is the best lighting I've ever seen in Quake 1, and is just phenomenal, even on standard settings with just _sunlight2, where it compiles stupidly fast. So thanks to tyrann, ericw and ydnar (not present; for q3map2) and others who worked on it. PS. I was secretly trying out a combination of long fadeout red light and fast fadeout intense yellow light - as you can apply more than one light to a surface. I must say that this combination looks very good, but sadly you end up with discrete yellow blobs of light in many places. It can be seen working on the right hand column in my earlier screenshot: http://imgur.com/FMJtZcb (screenshot is out of date btw) delay 6 does not exist in tyrutils ;). if you use an invalid delay you get delay 0 (linear).
I would advise against lowering the brightness by scaling down the colours right now. I should fix this, but if you do it right now, the Instead, I believe halving both "light" and "wait" will give you the same effect. Make sure to play around with "r_lightmap 1" in Fitz/QS - of course, you have to judge the final look with the texture in place, but this can be really helpful to see what's going on when you make subtle lighting changes. I can allow "_surface_offset" to be negative in the next build, neat idea. glad you're enjoying the tool unbirthday :D Try putting these in your autoexec.cfg
bind "key" "toggle r_lightmap" bind "key" "toggle r_fullbright" bind "key" "toggle showbboxes" bind "key" "toggle r_drawviewmodel" bind "key" "noclip" bind "key" "notarget" There are probably more that would be useful. I just realized I don't have a bind for drawflat or showtris. @ericw the paragraph referring to delay 6, was suggestions for an improved tyrutils-ericw xD And yep, I've been using r_lightmap 1. --- I think controlling z attenuation independently of x,y would be awesome, as it could be used for other interesting lighting and not just for surfaces.
I have basically a big cave and surface light from the lava is just about unusable with delay 5. Using light 100, delay 5, wait 8, and -gate 15 switch, It looks like I still get too much light on the ceiling (over 1024 units above).
I need to check with no lights except the lava though, because I have some other lights using delay 5, and delay 5 goes on forever. I think I'll try delay 2 because it'll be brighter down low, close to the lava, but it looks like it gets attenuated faster than delay 5. I don't want the lava to be a light source, just want a little glow from it. The default setting (no delay) isn't terrible but the abrupt light cutoff looks pretty bad. If you're using low settings and the light near the lava is low but the ceiling is too bright are you using -addmin ?
Try turning it off and seeing if it's any better. No, wasn't using it. The more I think about, I need to just take out all other lights and then adjust the surface light from the lava. There are other lights using delay 5 and I'm thinking they're part of the problem.
After experimenting with surface light from lava last night I've come to the conclusion that delay 5 and delay 2 lights just reach way too far.
light 50, delay 2, wait 5, gate 50 and I still see perceptible light over 600 units away but the light right at the lava surface is not that bright at all. Some kind of delay with fade that was about halfway between 2 and 5 at the beginning but had a more definite cutoff, similar to delay 0, farther away would be much better. Next, I guess I'll try stacking two different types of light, maybe a delay zero at light 100 for close in glow along with a light 50 delay 5 wait around 8-10 for little more range (but not halfway across the map). I finally got (sort of) the effect I wanted.
http://quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/lavalight1.jpg That screenshot uses light 100 for the bright part, light 50 delay 5 wait 6 for the dimmer part, and -gate 15 on the command line. _color is 192 64 16 for both lights which seems to match the texture pretty well. Looking at the lightmap, the dividing line between the two light sources is a bit more obvious than I'd like, but isn't all that noticeable in the textured view. Offsetting the delay 5 light 16-32 units higher might help that. Offsetting the delay 5 light 16-32 units higher might help that.
Their position doesn't matter at all if they're surface lights. some more wip as I've been experimenting with different ways to create rock formations
http://imgur.com/a/1rewA Basically just create an octagon and then make a few different height variations, and start copy+pasting all over the damn place. The way the shapes intersect creates a very pleasing final effect and I'm pretty happy with it! Today I am trying to get the layout mostly complete and am starting to add monsters and logic etc. I am trying to avoid noticeable teleporting in of enemies by populating parts of the map while the player is somewhere else to make things feel more natural. We'll see how this goes! The surface light has a _surface_offset key, I tried it and it seems to work. The separation between the two brightness levels seems a little smoother now. When I add -extra 4 and -soft back to the batch file it should look pretty good.
If surface light didn't have the offset key, there is at least one hacky way to do the same thing. I ran the new light utility on a different computer today and it acted a little weird. I was looking in the thread about it to see if anyone else had noticed it,and ran across some posts where the problem of excess light from delayed surface lights was discussed. I wish I'd seen them sooner, I probably could have saved a little time. Some of the suggestions there were similar to what I came up with. I'm finding these settings work ok on my lava surface:
_color = 1.0 0.0 0.0025 delay = 5 light = 25 wait = 1.375 _anglescale = 0.35 Time to whine a bit. I'm not used to think in terms of single player, it's been painful. I was planning some survival / adventure gameplay based on traps and a sole super-shotgun on player's hands, but I would need much more time to come up with something worth playing. I'm delivering a stripped version, which is frustrating. Day comes and goes and I still don't have a final fight and will probably drop it. Everyday seems to take forever until it's 6 PM and I run home to map... no, wait, to lunch, to wash dishes and talk to wife, mapping from 10:30 PM until my sleepy head hits the keyboard. But I'm not giving up.
You're over reaching. Seriously. Just make a simple map that fits the theme. Worry about unique gameplay when you're doing a mod or something.
I have one big cave with a start and an exit. I'm just going to add a few more rooms and some monsters and consider mine done. I should be able to do that this weekend.
That leaves next week to add any embellishments I can fit in. If I don't find time to work on it and all there is at deadline is 4 rooms and 3 scrags, then that's what I'll send. There will almost certainly be no final fight or boss fight. I find those tedious for the most part and usually skip them and consider the game finished. I'm more of a explore and discover type person. I think I am getting a lot done lately, but I dropped the detail on everything but the most important stuff. I am using a lot of copy and paste geometry to make things seem grander then they are... Look closely and those archways are the same, with a few broken columns that are simply the same broken column rotated and switched sides. Those pillars of rock coming out of the lava... they are all just two sets of geometry resized and rotated.
It actually helps keep the theme in areas because it looks consistent allowing me to focus on what I want to do with the level's story telling element... if I can get it done in time. *shrug* Otherwise I also force the player through the same areas a couple times to make the level seem WAY larger than it is (note my "hub" screens, you get there four times during my design). Don't give up. " I am using a lot of copy and paste geometry to make things seem grander then they are... Look closely and those archways are the same, with a few broken columns that are simply the same broken column rotated and switched sides. Those pillars of rock coming out of the lava... they are all just two sets of geometry resized and rotated. "
Yes. We in the biz call that "level design". :P Making prefabs and then rotating/c&p /scaling them all over the level is a great idea for a map jam or any project with a short time limit! if you are making every last detail custom then that is a mountain of work that isn't really necessary! At the end of the day no one will really notice that stuff is c&p if you do it well, ie. varying the rotations, size, and lighting enough to make it all feel unique.
Also, reminding everyone that this Sunday 9th is ROLL CALL! :D It's gonna be kinda awesome as it's going.
Btw thinking about map jams: it may be nice to have a chainmap map jam - to connect all the entries into one large (or even giant) map. It's much harder to do because it requires someone to work on the map after everyone finished their part and make the gameplay flow mostly from scratch, but the result may really great, especially since we have bsp2 format. It's a shame that there were no chainmaps since sm82. That was 10 years ago. Christ almighty. Couldn't you pick someone pretty. I actually had a quick fap, because she's so ugly that my brain automatically streamed billions of beautiful women before my eyes. I love my brain.
Think I have a rock prefab:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/amurad/Games/jam6b_zpshvmy6z1m.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/amurad/Games/jam6a_zpssdvhzf0f.jpg I said rock prefab, not door, ok? Ignore the door. And sky. Lighting needs work as well. The first rock is never forgotten =~) Everything snapped to a grid of 4, built in a safe way, following this technique:
http://www.simonoc.com/pages/articles/rockwall1_1.htm That looks pretty good. I should try making rocks that way. I always use triangles and my rocks always come out looking...triangular.
What's goin' off with the fog? Whenever it's on my map, it makes the whole game run like turd. It drops from exactly 111fps (same 111fps no matter the position I stand at) to 24fps, WTF. Anyway, doesn't matter if unresolved, as fog on my map looks turd and I'm turning it off. Shall I set it to _fog 0 in the worldspawn? I remember in one of the other jams, that fog carried on in one of tyrann's map, when it should've been off.
You won't have the problem Tronyn had; he had set a fog but not the color so inherited whatever color a previously loaded map's fog was.
What engine are you running? Because you really should not be seeing that much of a performance drop from using fog, and that would be an engine issue anyway. Most modern maps have been made with a fog setting, so it shouldn't be an issue. ericw maybe might have some insight what's going on? quakespasm-0.90.1_win64 on Windows 7 SP1. I just checked with another map; ionous' map from jam1, as it's one I know has fog - it runs at full speed as per usual.
I think it might be because I've boxed off my level, as it's been expanding in size ever since I started it. I noticed the sky/hull had shedloads of triangles where they didn't seem necessary. I noted a previous crash with this error message: "Sky_ClipPoly: MAX_CLIP_VERTS". By Sunday, my map's architecture should mostly be stable, so we'll see by then if it goes away. That's really weird, can't recall fog giving a performance drop like that. If you want, I'd be happy to have a look at the bsp and see if there's any possible fix in QS.
"Sky_ClipPoly: MAX_CLIP_VERTS" seems to happen when you have a sky poly with 63 or 64 sides. On one hand it's an engine issue, but maybe it's not too hard to work around in the map "I noticed the sky/hull had shedloads of triangles where they didn't seem necessary"
One thing to try would be to scale up the textures on your sky surfaces a lot. That will result in less triangles sky surfaces shouldn't be subdivided by qbsp, so i don't think texture scale would matter.
In quakespasm/fitzquake, scrolling skies use a subdivided cube to create a smooth effect. These subdivisions could be what you are seeing. Try messing with the variable "r_sky_quality" to see if it changes the amount of polygons that you are seeing. they are subdivided. In new compilers the scaling shouldn't matter as it should use the bare minimum tris, but older compilers increasing the texture size will achieve this.
As I'm always trying to keep marksurfaces under the 32768 limit on Wish 13, I remember at one time getting a noticeable decrease when I changed the scale on sky textures from 1 to 64. but that was before I switched to txqbsp_xt.
Warning: Huge post (unrelated to the jam so skip if undesired)
My map is looking sexy. I'm so happy that Quake is still alive and thriving. A few years back I saw czg's honey reviewed on a site not part of the Quake community. Prompted by the screenshots, I did a youtube search and found DaZ's review. I just couldn't believe it was mostly standard Quake. At work, I showed my pal DOS Quake vs Darkplaces & Epsilon and he was astounded. Since then I'm a convert to pixels, but I do love the lush eyecandy too. I'm no engine nazi, as I have most installed and ready to use. Over the years I was afraid that the incorporation of games companies and their subsequent difficulty dulling was going to go on forever. I'm happy that "CoD" as a term is dying off. I'm glad that DOOM 4 seems to be going back to base. I'm glad that steam is around and has a big fat anti-corporate [mostly] like gabe at the top. Over the years my taste in games has been refined to the opposite of when I was a child - that is to move toward puzzles. That's why I think Half-Life 2 is the most recent evolution of fps games. I think DOOM 4 will be fun, but it's definitely not evolutionary. Portal is evolutionary. Anyway, I've been thinking about a all-in-one Quake editor for a long time. A sort of lightweight (written in c + hll for interface), fast, elegant interface that is easy to learn, but lets you go to primitives at any time. Like in inkscape, you can do high level vector morphing/grouping/filtering, but you can also change individual vectors. It would have a high-level prefab library with drag and drop, a high-level triggering system that lets you do basic scripts using triggers as gates, and automatically compiles a progs.dat if you go any further than what is possible. All preexisting quake tools can be plugged in, and it uses a plugin system based on both quakec and python. It could be like a combination of the DOOM 4 editor we saw, and the crysis editor. It will let you generate terrain using voxels and it converts them to brushes/meshes/ase/whatever when you compile (extra data is stored in the map file as comments, so it is backwards-compatible). It will also bloody rotate properly, using interpolation to quantise the brush vectors to the grid - it will let the user choose a different interpretation if it gets it wrong. It would suck up all the best ideas out there from everywhere like a huge quake vacuum cleaner SLUUUURP. And the best part is, ericw has already volunteered to do it, because I only started coding in 3D a few months back xD I'm joking about the ericw bit, but it is something I can do - I'm fluent in c/c++. There are large gaps in my 3D knowledge, but that's what the project is for - learning. A tool like this could make the Quake community grow, as it would be an introduction point for novices. Plus DaZ will get more subscribers and might actually do some videos... :D Holy turd that was a big post. Thoughts? Where do all these mapjams get announced first? Here? Does anyone post them on Facebook or anything? I'm just getting into Q1 mapping again but I keep missing these.
They're mostly held at Func_msgboard and they're announced on twitter by Daz. Welcome to the club BTW.
The previous mapjams were all announced here. it was only the impromptu retrojams that were only announced on twitter.
whoops!
as an apology, have some doom interiors: http://shoresofnis.com/temp/2015-08-07_interior.jpg this is actually the old czg05 textures I dug up mixed with some more converted ones from lunaran's q3 map. Friendly reminder that Sunday is ROLL CALL! :D
Post your map wip screenshots and give feedback on other wip's! Album:
http://imgur.com/a/VFjvp Hello! Progress has been pretty solid since last roll call. Things are going smoothly. That is, until I add a skybox. I have everything but the last room and final combat ready to go, and would like to get to finishing up and polishing, but when I compile with a skybox I hit MAX_LIGHTS. Glad I found this out now. Any ideas about what might be going on here? The map is not that large, but as soon as I put even one tiny cube with skybox texture on it I hit the limit. Obviously something is incorrect in the map. So, the screenshots you see are unsealed. Hope you enjoy anyway. Can't wait to see everyone else's stuff. Things have been great so far! :D P.S. In previous discussions about lighting, people have been talking about parameters like delay, weight, and anglescale, but I don't see these on any lights or under map settings. Is my looking awesome, I like the wooden bridges over the lava!
re: MAX_LIGHTS, weird, that sounds like a bug in the light tool. Even having a surface light on the sky texture works for me. You wouldn't happen to have a surface light for the sky texture with _deviance set? (although, even that should work with only one little cube of sky). If you don't mind sending the map I could have a look. I'm not sure about the fgd, but maybe you can just add the "delay" (etc.) key to a light manually? Just found them in-game. This is a screenshot from Wally:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3Ww0W8WFfq7NmRRRjIyb3BsTWM I fixed it. Here is a correct 224 non-fullbright color version: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3Ww0W8WFfq7N0pzanlJdVVielk @ ericw: Thank you. I do not have a surface light for the sky texture, I'm only using the map settings to set the sunlight values.
I would be happy to get the map file to you. Where could I host it that would be convenient? @adib: Haha oh man I noticed this today when I started using texturemode 1. It's so distracting I was about to pick a new texture. Nice job catching that and making the edit! I see you used rock_brown, like me, and I noticed a white pixel on your catacombs shot. I just posted the solution above.
About the skybox, aren't you making it a giant box around the level? That would make _sunlight create zillion lights, I guess. Anyway, I loved the catacombs and the lava fall. You gave a nice organic feel to the rocks. You chose the vulcanic ash grey one, which is a good choice. But I think the lava bright on it is falling too harsh, almost like a watermark. A matter of taste, though, just my 2 cents. @ericw So, funny story. While I was setting up and compiling the map to show you how broken it was, it wasn't broken anymore. Derp.
I think the problem here was what adib said, which was covering the whole level in a big hollow box to seal it. I'm used to doing this in HL2 to get a quick dirty seal, but apparently Quake doesn't like that one bit. This time I just put sky over the part I wanted to show without sealing the level and it looks fine. So...thanks for the offer to take a peek at the map, but this one's all on my ignorance. :p @adib I was in fact just putting a big box around the level. The MAX_LIGHTS issue will occur even if the box doesn't have skybox texture on it, as long as the map is sealed in this horrible way and there is a skybox at all. Guess I have some work ahead of me to seal this thing correctly. Thanks for the feedback on the lava light. I'm not happy with it either, so I'll be tweaking the values over the next week as I compile and test. Thanks again, both of you. Mystery solved. :D So I'm on vacation starting
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161473/Misc/MapJam666/MapJam666-Final.zip Thanks for putting this together DaZ, it was a lot of fun! That download is really for DaZ. Everyone else might want to wait until the actual release to play it It should be properly VIS'd and all that this time. :P but there's errors too... I could spend some time fixing it up?
the
i think a counter isnt fired because of the count being to high a value on medium.
The door I posted before:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/amurad/Games/rock01a_zpsgu8pzfpn.jpg Now a shot from the opposite side, from that door: http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/amurad/Games/rock02_zpsz2p8lzxj.jpg This blocky room will not be rock, but probably building-like finished: http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/amurad/Games/rock03_zpsmskg6mhi.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/amurad/Games/rock04_zpsqmuogelt.jpg Hey I like the consistent visuals and your lighting is beautiful. Only crit I can have is that the doors could use more of a call out. They have a nice border, which is good, but they're all dark or lit the same as the rest of the environment.
If you don't want to use more lights, you could add some brushwork so either side of the doors that would cut the light and cast a shadow around it, but leave the door lit. That could help frame it more. Can't wait for the final map. argh, so, this last week of work has been in connecting things, and creating something I don't really want to show off in a screenshot. I was going to try and finish up something cool today to show but sadly life is in the way today.
So I will give a half tease of what I don't want to show and promise something else cool (and some feedback!) tomorrow. What's in the BOX!? And you'll improve it? But I'm already loving it!
@Hal Yes, there will be light at the doors. Thanks Halvgoeden:
You've got something quite nice going. Only thing that sticks out is the catacombs; I would make the interior inside the arches a brick texture for visual consistency. Adib: The lighting and general feel is nice. Keep at it! Scampie: Your shots of this map are a wonder to behold. It makes me want to make a map in that theme. With actual lighting this time:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm196/voiceofthenephilim/jam6_ionousC_zpsqff7cigy.jpg I am nowhere close to done. This map is going to look really rough by the time it's done (especially the terrain), but I do think I can pull it together by the deadline. Oh, and I'll be streaming in about 20 minutes. http://www.twitch.tv/ionous/profile Hal : Nice! I love the rocky walls and lava falls. The lighting from the lava seems very artificial with the sudden fall off (how did you even do that, hehe).
Adib : Lighting still rocks :) Agree with what Hal said about the doors, a light_small_walltorch would help a lot there or something similar. Scampie : Gief!!! Ionous : Lighting yaay! Too much yellow from the lava i think. A more muddy orange/red would work better I think. Maybe a bit dark up top also. Looks like you could increase brightness/falloff of those wall torches at the top to brighten the area up. Here are some wip images from my stream today, after I fixed the light.exe crash (Thx Ericw!). http://imgur.com/a/YiFB9 Scampie: The detail is fantastic. Great use of texturing and geometry. Got the fire, but what about the brimstone?
Adib: Did you steal my door? (joking) Your map looks so much more organic than what I have been doing. Although in a test map I have started testing some techniques on how to get my rocks to look kind of like yours... inspired, I guess you could say. Hal: Even for what you said was a simple map it is looking pretty awesome. It has a great feeling of scale. I think the lighting needs some tweaking. The lava might be too bright vs the darkness surrounding it or/and maybe some lights need to be added to the center of the level. It is a WIP, so I might be stating the obvious. Daz: Your inspiration is coming through. The way the geometry curves and looks like magma pooling in craters is cool as hell. A hell of a contrast to the stone structures. Lighting is spot on from what I can tell. Ionous: Like what was said, the lava is a little too yellowish, but I am totally digging the geometry and use of textures. Caught a small amount of your twitch stream and was a bit blown away over the attention to detail you show. WIP The "Hub" has evolved. Notice the doors have been switched to provide better flow for the rest of the level. Lighting might still be a little out of control... https://www.dropbox.com/s/vo2rlbu2a5c4eef/Quake_MapJam666_WIP_7.jpg?dl=0 This might look familiar but completed. https://www.dropbox.com/s/v3s4bsrg0depnh7/Quake_MapJam666_WIP_8.jpg?dl=0 If you look at the dropbox you will see that there are more pictures (6 and 9) but I will hold off on posting them here. nice shots/streams. scampie's shot is very sexy, i have a long time passion to the rubicon textureset. daz's map looks great but it may take forever to vis. ionous, more details to the details god! where are new necros' screenshots of crazy rocks?? Hal, Adib, c'mon I want to play it as soon as possible.
@WarrenM
Your screens have been great so far. Can't wait to play this. @Scampie Your aesthetic is quite nice. I'm seeing little walkways and things too, so looks fun to explore. @ionus Your architechture is just bananas, dude. Looking forward to seeing it up close. I really like the repeating shape you have. Very solid. @Daz I get strong Doom vibes from your layout and shapes, which is very good imo. I do wonder how you're leading the player around? The layout seems quite open and circular just from looking at the screens. @ShoTro Your lighting is very chroma-high, but it's really of cool. It has that out-of-this world feel to it that some games have lost. Also, your layout looks fun. Multileveled, many doors...I just want to start looking around right now! @Breezepop_ Whoa. Flooded passageways? Sold. Halvgoeden: Moody environment, I like it. Have you considered increasing the lava texture scale? The lava falls look good, but the flat lava surfaces seem a little tiley, if you'll pardon the term.
adib: Your rocks almost look like they have normal maps with that lighting, really nice work. And thanks for that fullbright fix! I'm using a different texture for my own map, but it's nice to have the option if the need comes up. Daz: I see you've continued your exploration of the elusive eight-sided hexagon, very impressive results. How are you wrapping your lava fall texture from the top face around to the side like that? "Treat as one" and Fit in Jackhammer doesn't work quite right for me when the faces lie on drastically different planes. A bunch of other great shots, too, I'm just drawing a blank as far as useful feedback or questions to ask. Keep at it, everybody! As for my own Work, it's not as In Progress as I'd like it to be. I've wasted most of the last week, nothing substantial's gotten done. I did manage to finish the in-lava ground mounds' geometry, finalize the texture for same, and build some new rocks for my main gateway: http://imgur.com/cPDRZYD I've also started to flesh out my bridges. I'd hoped not to show these so soon, but with nothing else going on I might as well: http://imgur.com/LmrtTWl The bridges are one of the features I'm building with the func_instances I previously mentioned; modular sections built in their own file that I can plop in, duplicate, and rotate to whatever whackjob angles I need, but then keep editing as I go since their geometry remains neatly on the grid in their respective files. It's working well so far, and between clip brushes and func_illusionaries the bridge is nice and smooth to walk along, too. Things are looking up, next weekend here I come! some awesome stuff here... like skin bridges! also like daz's lighting settings for the lava.
been wrestling with brushes for a few days now... now I remember why I don't map much. :P http://shoresofnis.com/temp/2015-08-07_exterior.jpg Needs more lighting on the actual base part though, it's too dark atm.
Those rocks though..ziiiiiiiiiip _sunlight2 from Ericw's latest light tool might look bloody fantastic in this area with some _dirt as well!
necros' map looks like it could just about pass for a recent id tech map.
I'll post a screenshot a bit later - I've been sleeping through the day. I have basically a big cave with some lava and a couple of rudimentary structures. Because it's mostly just one big open area I'm having trouble figuring out how to add any game play.
I may have overestimated when I said 4 rooms and 3 scrags in a previous post. I started late, built almost completely from scratch, and have spent way too much time making rock work and trying to get lava surface light to look okay. I do have a few hours I can spend on it this evening though. Maybe I'll get it in good enough shape to post a screenshot later. Daz
In my transition to not-epic I think I lost your email and the car was pulling out of the driveway. I had no time to find it. :-P Glad the map works... But it's np :) I tested it a few times and it indeed works. Now go on holiday! ;)
Really looking forward to playing all of these. Played Warrens already, and for being an unfinished map it is a very nice start. I hope you finish it :)
I'll be away for a few days, so I'll have to make my map very short (if I ever stop procrastinating).
Aw man, I'm so behind now. I've been pretty sick the past week so I have nothing new to show since the last rollcall shots I sent last week Weaksauce. Hope I can still build some semblance of a finished map!
CustomShambler: you know, this is kinda fucking cool
CustomShambler: got a stream from a skinny brit playing a load of trance, a stream from an expat yank in fucking hawaii with a bunch of dogs playing mellow black metal, both working on similarly themed but entirely different and good-looking maps for a 20 year old game that still rocks Was up till 4 am late Sunday mapping and got in another 5 or 6 hours yesterday. Finally it's looking "not too bad". Sadly, the week is getting shorter and what yet needs doing seems a lot.
http://quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/rk_jam6c.jpg Oh this looks pretty nice! Love the design of the tower and bridge supports. The fog doesn't really match the environment but it still works somehow.
Yeah, know what you mean about the time... Won't get too much time this weekend so will likely just have to cut things short and toss 1000 monsters inbox something.
yeah, I think I am trying to do too much, and then Daz gave us more time and I decided "oh, I can do some extra unique things!" rather than actually accomplishing the original plan that was already too much :D
Should be able to get everything done, but the ending and such may suffer. Heh, though the fog and lighting probably needs a little more tuning it looks really cool in the game, probably better than you think, and it was inspired by photos of real lava.
I was just able to spend another few hours on it, but I think at this point all I can promise is around 1200 brushes and maybe 20 or so monsters to kill. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/20/photos-of-lava_n_3950497.html (check the 8th one down in particular) The numbers output in qbsp - the left column is the total sum in your level and the right column is the total maximum that the compiler supports?
Good question. Despite having made Quake maps for nearly 20 years, I have no idea really, but I'm pretty sure it's not a maximum. It may be size information of the listed data.
Me or Worldcraft screwed my level. Lost almost a day trying to fix a "mixed contents" error. At 11PM I finally managed to run the map. There was an infinite wall in the middle of the level. I'm sure you already got those, it's caused by brush faces without normals. Then I opened the
The level works again, but I lost all texture alignment and all visgroups. If I had to hurry to deliver something by this weekend, now I'm pretty sure it won't happen at all. There are bright sides: for the first time I got courage to make something organic with brushes and I'm very happy with results. I had a very nice and simple idea for a map to use these rocks. If only I had this idea three weeks ago... Also, I improved my method. And since the textures are all f*ked up anyway, I dropped WC and moved to Jackhammer. I'm gonna try to finish until the last minute, but honestly I don't think it's possible. Good luck everybody. That happened to me early on. It is why I have shied away from more complex geometry since. I had to move away from Trenchbroom, Obj2Map and Worldcraft early on and just focus on Jackhammer.
That sucks. Re-align the textures and keep rolling.
Just as a note, every mapper should have a backup plan. Before I start the editor, every time, I make a back up copy of the map, and after every pass through the compilers I keep a copy of that map. Periodically, I thin out some of the unnecessary copies, but save one for long term about every 10-15 versions. I have something like 500 MB of Wish 13 copies going back to 2010. Lately, when I make a backup after compiling, I've found it useful to add a short comment to the map's file name as a reminder of what was changed for that iteration. Yes, I have iteration backups. But last iteration was one whole day of work (almost) finishing the bigger room. I didn't think I was doing anything dangerous, the rocks' prefabs was already working (even posted screenies here). Don't know what caused that. Don't have this infinite wall problem since... what, 1999? Since I learnt to respect brushes and stopped manipulating vertices like there's no tomorrow.
It's cheaper to realign the whole crap again, but it will take another night. And the schedule was already tight before this big setback. I'm sure gonna try it, though. shit happens.
I found rebuilding crucial things is done quick, a day of lost work was redone in 2 hours for me, knowing what was already in place sure helps. Also things profit from being touched twice and more often in general. Go map! I think jackhammer does a backup when you save or run map. I'm seeing extra files in my map folder with date / time appended.
Get something like attic-backup and set it up for your sources as part of your build process. Costs pretty much nothing, deduplicates and rocks.
I've got my map structurally finished as of this morning. Nothing left except some trimming, lighting in one new large area, a few things for the player to do, and some monsters to kill.
Monsters could be a problem. Mostly one big area, much of it visible from the start, makes placement challenging. And I really dislike teleporting enemies in if the player can see or hear it. But I've been thinking about it for a few days and maybe I can figure out something that'll work. I'm nearly done with this small map, but I'm still thinking of the last two rooms and I'm procrastinating alot as of late.
Two areas will be largely unfinished. I am working on entities and making sure you can get through the map. If I have time I will add a few secrets (I have one right now) and additional spawns, but I don't want the map to be too hard to get through. Many ideas scrapped and I am just trying to make sure it is playable.
I don't have a ton of time to make this happen... just went too far with my concepts. :-p Pacing will be all over the place. Last night it took 71 minutes to run Light on high quality. I stopped VIS early because it looked like over an hour for that also. Why oh Why did I make a big cave? I've never had a map take this long to build. Gah, back to mapping.
the peak of my mapping skills. This is probably the biggest challenge so far: to release it anyway.
I'm still working on some of the last parts of my map, I've got to figure out what to do with the seccond part of my map, get the lighting correct and have it sent to a tester. I'm not sure if I'll be able to make the deadline, It might end up as DLC.
As we are getting close to the deadline, I should explain how you should get your level to me :) (another thing I forgot to put in the main post, yay!)
When your level is finished, you should e-mail the full compiled level, any required files (.lit file for coloured lighting etc) and a readme.txt for your level to me at Darren.Weekes@gmail.com Your levels changelevel trigger should go to "start"! Important! It will take me a few days to compile the pack together, get a start map sorted and test everything, so if you have an updated version of your level after the deadline date has passed but the jam hasn't been released then feel free to send me the updated version! Once the jam has been released, any further updates to levels or levels that were unfinished before the release and have now been completed, can be compiled into a "map jam 6 DLC" and released separately. You should really include the
Your levels changelevel trigger should go to "start"! Important!
Glad you cleared that up. I thought I was going to have to ask. Wait. I have to write a readme file? (currently up to 1108 brushes, 10 monsters, and down to only 6 CutNodePortals_r warnings) Added some new stuff, hopefully I can make this map at least vaguely worth checking out! haha :)
http://i.imgur.com/L9s3yce.jpg http://i.imgur.com/sldsDET.jpg My map is on the harder end of things right now. Not enough ammo, not enough health, and I still have to include the enemy spawns/teleports... :-p One day left!
Back up your data, then back it up some more.
My external drive has failed. Not just this map, but tons of personal work is now lost. I know most of you are probably more experienced than I am with this stuff, but in case you're not, IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU, so even now if you haven't yet, make copies of your maps and files and put them on another drive. There is still time for things to go very wrong. I'll see if some kind of recovery can be done, but this looks like the end. The bright side is I learned what I wanted to learn from this jam and I'm already working on another map during lunch hour at work (and backing that one up properly). Looks like I won't be submitting this time though. Still can't wait to play the finished pack! That really sucks :( It's a horrible feeling when you lose files like that. It happened one time to me and I've always kept hard copy and online storage backups since then. Never again!
Still, I am glad you are continuing with the mappery! Even if you can't submit for this jam, there are always jams happening! Starting to look decent:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/amurad/Games/jam6_15_zpscilvx6la.jpg There is hope. Water Alpha will be set to "1" for this jam! (Not transparent)
This will be the only forced setting, right? fyi: this can still be worked around. if you want transparent water, make a water brush out of *waterskip.
then, on the surface, make a 1 pixel high func_illusionary brush. On the sides, apply *skip (or *waterskip, it doesn't matter). On the top and bottom, apply your *water texture. set 'alpha' to the desired setting on the func_illusionary. Note that only works on engines that support the alpha key on brushmodels! Quakespasm and FitzMarkV will use the alpha you set, but there are a bunch of engines which will not.
That's not what I meant. It sounds like r_wateralpha is going to be set in a
I wonder if the new surface light works if the offset is below the floor? It works below liquid surfaces now, as lights always have. You just have to set the surface offset or what the value is called to a negative number. If it is below the floor, as in inside actual brush geo, then I don't see a way of it working.
Wateralpha is the only thing set in the
Good. I played a pak once that set gl texturemode to some pixelated crap and it really annoyed me. fitzquake, quakespasm, MarkV, Darkplaces, Super8, FTE...
I still have to tinker around with gameplay and the last bit of my map, so I'm completely fine with this.
So like... Aug16th GMT? I'm in PST (GMT-8) and was kinda hoping to have Sunday to map tooWill need the time for sure (and even then my map is going to be so frickin' primitive IMO) :P
/jam6_ionous submitted.
I was sick of this map, and happy to let go of it. There's a lot more I could have smoothed out, but I'm burned out on it. In unrelated news, I might be streaming later. we shall see. I'm sorry lads - there's no way I can finish this in time. I made the mistake of thinking my first ever quake map release will be an epic. I've learnt a load of stuff in the process, but it's taken a lot of time, research, trial & error, and my silly attempt at building half a city is not finished. I'm going to work on it later, after I've done some smaller quake maps. It will be finished in a few weeks and released separately.
http://imgur.com/x2Z2xOQ And it tastes like strawberries, for some reason.
I have only the slightest bit of extra work to do, but it's a quarter to four in the morning here and I've got to get some sleep. If it's still the 16th in my timezone when I submit the map, does that count? I know this isn't a "contest", per se, but I don't want to be a poor sport my first time out. I think as long as it's still Sunday somewhere, it's not too late. Even then, if you're really trying and very close to finished, a little late shouldn't matter.
Here in the US we're among the last to switch over to the next day. It's almost 4 am now, so there's still over 20 hours to go as I post this. Yeah, almost 3AM here... trying to finish last room/area then I have to place monsters and perfect as much as I can heh! :)
Have we learned a lesson about leaving things until the last minute? :)
(answer : no, of course not) Just got the map to be playable and able to complete it. Just want to add a few more things.
Might take Daz's offer and release, then in a couple days release an updated version with more secrets and better balance. When trying to make a map, from scratch, in less than 2 weeks, some corners must be cut.
I have only two rooms really, and a small playable area outside. No secrets and I'm struggling to squeeze a few more monsters in. I may be up to 20 now. I didn't tweak skill levels much, no monsters on easy and just a couple of monsters are changed between normal and hard, total count is the same I think. And I still have to make some kind of readme file. Maybe I'll just copy this post... I gave up on syncing skills for my map when teleporting enemies. I have two more groups of spawning enemies to add before I can call the map finished.
Ok, so yesterday my laptop made some wierd stunt, and I had to renitialize it to make it work. Thankfully, my personal data was left untouched (aside from my browser's bookmarks...).
But the thing is, the compiler I use (ericw's lights and lately txqbsp) started fucking up, firstly like this: http://pastebin.com/RBMcbn8c (qbsp says there's too many vertices) After negke sent me txqbsp, there was still errors: http://pastebin.com/DW1Whjff But the worst thing is now, opening a pointfile in Trenchbroom crashed it, meaning for now I cannot pinpoint what's wrong. Oh someone please help, the deadline is today... You can submit. I'm not going to force a time zone on you all :)
- Awn, it's great to see so many new faces here. - Thanks! Can I get an extension? - No. You have a short memory, I already extended the deadline by an entire week! Don't worry about skill settings if you are struggling to finish. Make skill 1 the "balanced" skill setting as it is the default and make it as a good as possible! As I said, there will probably be a few days between now and actually releasing the pack as I need to test it, make a start map, make readme etc. GO MAP :D Quake crashed saying one texture is not 16 aligned. What gives?
Daya,
Look and see if your editor has made any back up copies, maybe one is still good. Try opening the map in a different editor. Try running the compile process on a different computer. Can you upload a copy of the map so others can maybe take a look at it? Right now Quake crashed and keep saying the texture called "ti_rc_c14" is not 16 aligned, despite resetting the textures and aligning them according to the brush.
https://www.mediafire.com/?6ns0seq8ym1uzxh Trying to compile the map atm. So far so good.
But that ti_rc_c14 texture is missing. Does not seem to be in any of the 5 wads you supplied in the zip. The error message means the width and/or height of "ti_rc_c14" is not a multiple of 16. Seems to be a 40x128 texture which is not allowed in Quake.
the error is not referring to alignment of the texture in the map. rather, it is referring to the dimensions of the texture ti_rc_c14 which is 40x128.
textures in quake must be multiples of 16, you need to modify that texture to be either 32 or 64 wide. or just not use it. you can try this: http://shoresofnis.com/temp/ti_rc_c14.bmp I have padded to the right side of the texture with black pixels to make it 64 wide. I can't find and kill 3 enemies in the level still... I can't for the life of me figure out where they went or which enemies are not spawning or spawning in the wrong place...
Frustrating. But it is pretty much as done as it is going to get at almost 12am. Compiling with lights on full and then will see if I can find the problem.
I will call it finished then send Daz and updated version if I can find the problems. - Buttons might not go the right direction.
- A couple enemies are unaccounted for after play through, but I can't, for the life of me figure out which of the 120+ enemies they are. - I think I spam the player a little too often during the middle of the map with enemies, but it is do-able. - I am going to spend my lunch breaks debugging these compile warnings for the next several days aren't I? *sigh* Anyways, Daz should get it as soon as I compile one last time and zip it up. I will post screens and stuff in the morning. I just added a secret, so I have to check the functioning of a bunch of doors. And I found a hole in the map the last play through, so I have to make sure it's gone.
I had all the errors and warnings fixed, but this last time through qbsp found a new CutNodePortals_r out in the void for some reason. I may not worry about it since it's at least 500 units from any accessible space. I'm pretty sure the map will be done by midnight, but the compile process is going to take over two hours, So may not be ready until the wee hours. So I didn't. I set my childish notions of sleep aside and have been mapping since the last time I posted. It worked, thankfully, and I just sent my finished product in to Daz. Fingers crossed it's worth something.
I had a hell of a time working on this, thanks to Darren for running the thing and to everyone for being so welcoming to us new guys! I'm still pushing forward on the map. I've lain 2000 brushes today, so might just have time for an updated version later in the week. Time shall tell.
I'm gonna try to cram in the item placement stuffs. My map's gonna suck, and I don't care.
Shit's gettin real, son! Srsly tho, almost done stoked to see what everyone else has come up with, too! :D
Confirmed received entries so far -
Ionous ItEndsWithTens Necros Scampie ShTro WarrenM Daz (HYPE!) You got mail.
Post mortem: many things could be better, many could be worse. I need to sleep. Looking forward to play the other levels. Biggest outcome yet, right? And indeed, nice to see new mappers. Will be cool to play some fresh styles :)
Map submitted. A few hours late but hopefully it's alright! Can't wait to try all the maps. Jam 6 is freakin' massive!
I've run into too much trouble into this fucking map. I've been working on this for 3 weeks and I had nothing but problems. This includes:
1.In the cabin at the start, there's supposed to be a glowing red light only, 4 seconds in a trigger sounds occure, deleting the red light to switch a normal light on, then 6 seconds from the start the door opens. Instead the trigger sound plays at the very start and the red light doesn't go away. 2.At the bottom zone with the lava floor, the button should spawn monsters AND make a stair appear. Instead only the monsters appears and no matter what workaround I try to do, the stairs refuse to move. 3.The Quad Damage in that area never appears. Just, never. 4.Teleport brushes are invisibles. 5.At the next area the player is supposed to be pushed up in the air after teleporting, but this never happens. 6.The ascencion area is broken as all hell. The silver key is on top of a pillar, that should move down when taken, and at the same time rise a block for a future path, and after that trigger the lava brush to rise up, close the fence at the start and saying "Temperature's rising, it's getting hot!". For those curious enough here's the zip file containing the source files: http://www.mediafire.com/download/6ns0seq8ym1uzxh/jam6daya.zip I know my map can be a DLC, but at that point I'm so tired of it yet so passionate about it I don't know what to do mine will be dlc as well potentially finished much later as standalone.
Too much IRL last few weeks for me to finish. it's normal! throw it in in its current state as alpha/beta. move on. make a "better" map next time. repeat.
the short fail cycle is why i liked speed mapping so much. these jams seems mega stressful. I've found you have to treat the jams as throw away quickies
I can help you with two of those problems:
3.The Quad Damage in that area never appears. Just, never. Try moving it further away from all surrounding brushes (e.g. raise it further from the floor). Your editor may be showing the bounding box wrong -- although it looks like it's not touching anything in the editor, it actually intersects with one or more brushes when you compile the map, (and hence disappears from the map when you start playing). I had this same problem just a few days ago. 4.Teleport brushes are invisibles. They are supposed to be invisible. I also did not know that when I first started mapping. As soon as you make a brush a trigger_teleport, it becomes invisible. If you want the player to see e.g. that classic teleport liquid texture, you need to create a separate world brush on top of your trigger_teleport and give it the texture you want. What is the deadline on this?
I might think about other workarounds on time. Also thanks alot for your input total_newbie!; I can confirm that moving the Quad Damage an extra 16 units up from the floor solves the problem. Recompiled and tested, and the Quad appears.
I got used to spending all my free time on that map.
I sent the map file last night, the time stamp on it was 11:48 pm. It took another 2 hours 21 minutes to compile the thing. I sent the final zip file a few minutes ago. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I didn't supply enough ammo to finish it on the "hard" setting, but maybe someone will prove me wrong. Also, I spent the last few hours I had adding a secret. Bad thing is that if the player doesn't find it, they will have a very hard time finishing even on "normal". I wasn't making a map for this jam. The map I'm currently working on is kinda Retrojam3_dlc_dlc.
I felt an urge to map awhile ago, but there were no jams announced at that moment. I waited for some time and then started to make a proper map without jams. So you'll see my map soon but not that fast. Your first problem seems tied to using four separate triggers at the start. Players start touching all four, and one of them triggers one of the others (the one named 'start') with no delay. That trigger, in turn, has a sound style, target, and delay, but delay only affects the targetted object, while the sound always plays immediately. You could change the 'start' trigger to have no delay of its own, then add a four second delay to the trigger that targets 'start'.
The simpler thing to do might be to try using some trigger_relays instead of several trigger volumes. Make one trigger_relay for each thing you want to do. Set their targets and delays as you like, but give them all the same targetname. Then have one master trigger that targets that name. Problem two seems like a naming issue. I see a button that fires 'st1' to teleport the enemies, but the stairs in the lava (if I'm looking at the right ones) are named st2, st3, and so on, and nothing in the map seems to target them. Give them the same name as those teleporters and they'll be activated at the same time. Number five is I think because you have that large outer trigger meant to kill the 'jump' entities. Something I hadn't realized about Quake until starting my own map for this jam is that triggers are defined by their world-axis-aligned bounding boxes, not their actual brush volumes. The trigger you have set to kill 'jump' has a hole in it, but that doesn't matter because you're still inside the bounding box, so that one fires and kills the trigger_push before it's had a chance to toss the player. Split that large trigger into four separate ones, one brush each, and I think it'll work the way you want. Finally, your last issue seems to stem from your silver key trigger having both a target and a killtarget, which won't work. Only one of them will fire, so if you want to target one thing and kill another, you'll as I suggested earlier need a few trigger_relay entities with the same name but different settings. Daya, I forgot to mention, if you go with my first suggestion of just changing the delays on those triggers at the start of the map, you'll also need to enable the 'start' trigger's "notouch" or "Entity only" spawnflag. I'm not sure what other editors might call that option.
Re: Daya's second problem (untriggered stairs):
One of the func_door entities (i.e. one of the stairs) does have the targetname "st0" and is targeted by the Vore that's teleported in when you press the button. It then in turn targets s2, which targets s3 and so on. So as far as I can see, killing the Vore should activate the stairs, right? Yet I've tested it and they do not move at all when the Vore dies. Tested linking the button directly with the stairs (giving the first func_door the same targetname as the teleporters), but that still did nothing -- so I don't think it's a naming issue.
Then I tested negke's suggestion and that crashes the engine with a stack overflow message. Ok, I got the stairs to work, using negke's advice and getting rid of the complex chain-of-targets: just gave all the func_door stairs the same targetname (st1).
They fall back into the lave almost immediately, though, so you need to change another one of the entity properties to get them to stay raised. I'm sure that's easy, though, and one of the experienced mappers here will know the answer. I'm an idiot, I didn't look closely enough at the connections shown in Jackhammer before deciding Daya hadn't actually connected them. Sorry.
The 'wait' key, or "Delay before close", sets the time to reset, change it to -1 to keep them open. I notice now poking around it's set to 0, which I thought might be a problem, but I don't get the stack overflow even with it set that way. It seems like enabling "Don't link" on the seventh stair is what does it. It's okay if I only enable the option on the first six stairs, but on st8 I get the error. I'm not sure why. Treating the whole bunch as a single entity (i.e. with a single targetname and "don't link" enabled on all of them) does work, though, so if I were Daya, that's what I would do. There does not seem to be anything to gain from having the stairs target one another; it just seems like an unnecessary multiplication of map entities...
for problem 1., you can't switch a light off with killtarget, and if you mean it's a plusing style, then you can't switch it off with id1 progs.dat.
To make a non-pulsing red light that switches off, just give the light entity a color and targetname, it should switch off when triggered. At the collapsing bridge in your map, you have two messages, namely "The bridge will collapse shortly" (or something like that) and then "Woah!" (or something like that).*
At the moment, though, the first message appears for only a second or so before it is replaced by the "Woah" message (long before the bridge actually starts falling). The effect is that the player only really sees "Woah" on the screen and has no idea what is going on. _____________ * The idea is obviously that the first message lets the player know of imminent danger (so they know they need to find a way off the bridge), and "woah!" is supposed to appear as the bridge finally collapses. Oh yeah, for this jam I ended up writing a bit of JavaScript to calculate the brush sizes I'd need to perfectly span the open spaces with repeating elements (like a fence, or series of windows). Specify the unit size of the space you want to fill and the unit size of the divider that goes between each section, and the script then lists feasible options that will repeat perfectly within that space. If anyone would find this script handy I could toss it on GitHub or something. It's kinda primitive tho - you just paste the functions into the JS console in your browser and call it from there. If enough ppl want it, I could just put this stuff in an HTML page with a simple web view or something.
is that it's basically unplayably slow. I get around 10 fps on Quakepasm 0.90 on a not-too-old computer, where most maps run at around 70 fps.
I don't know nearly enough to diagnose why this happens, but I am guessing cleaning up the brushwork and sealing the map cannot hurt. FWIW, when I compile the map without running light, it runs at around 20fps (and fullbright, of course), which is bad, but not unplayable. Don't know if this helps with troubleshooting. That looks bloody great!
btw I wonder why doesn't necros tease us with some more screenshots. Not the quality of Scampie's shots, but for my first single player map ever in a game I haven't mapped for in over 15 years... I am pretty happy with the result despite having to restart and trashing half the rooms trying to fix errors 5 days before deadline. :-p
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yp20pcjhl4i5stg/Quake_MapJam666_WIP_11.jpg?dl=0 I will be fixing a few more things and updating Daz with new files tomorrow. I might have made it too easy trying to make it so you can beat it without ESP and only two shotgun shells remaining. Beer time! Since Scampie decided to post screenshots of the finished map, I'll do some shots myself:
http://i.imgur.com/IZdEg7x.png http://i.imgur.com/uggOy4x.png I was getting pretty sick of working on this map to be quite honest. I guess I'll stick with doom mapping form now on, since it's a bit difficult to make a functional layout without getting confused on what to do or how the map would look like. I'm looking forward to seeing what Daz thinks of this map (It'll probably suck) and I am also looking forward to playing everyone else's maps. It's a shame you've been put off because those screenshots look really cool! It can be rough learning a game engine under a time limit for sure, maybe working on another small map but with a longer but self imposed time limit will feel much better?
Bollocks, Doom mapping is for babies!
I'm happy you finally finished a Q1SP. I guess a deadline helped, since as far as I recall your projects would tend to run out of steam. Be better at self discipline than onetruepurple is.
Your map is looking nicer than some of the lost chapters, and that includes the one made by Ionous who's a turbogood mapper now. Keep up the hard work! I'm glad for the deadline as I usually never finish maps anymore, usually die to lack of interest.
Having the deadline and the fact that it is a sort of group thing helps I agree about the deadline part because, as some of you know, I've been working on my other map for over 5 years. And yeah, that it turned into a sort of group activity was a plus.
I play tested my map today a bit. Man, did I miss a lot of stuff and the lighting could really use more tweaking. As far as game play goes, skill 1 isn't too bad, though things tend to not go the way I meant them to. Skill 0, the map can't be finished without cheating, even though there are no monsters. Skill 2 was a nightmare because of insufficient ammo. I only managed to finish by running for the exit with 7 enemies chasing me. map looks good bro, I can understand getting dejected with making quake maps. It's easy to get burnt out. Honestly though I find making doom maps far more frustrating.
add some more ammo to the end, do an -onlyents compile, and send Daz an update! I've done a few balance fixes today and sent him updates
Yeah I already let Daz know. Since there were some minor lighting tweaks and texture changes needed also, I'll re-compile the thing tonight and send him the new one in the morning.
I was trying to figure out how to use that archway but spent a lunch break pondering how and failing at it. Looks fantastic!
Your lunch time seems a lot of fun, but I hope you actually eat sometimes.
Thanks, and you can steal it away :) By week 3 I found alice.wad at Quaddicted (link at DaZ initial post). There is a nice animated fire texture that would make the perfect "roof" for this arch, behind the ogres, like a crown. Will try it for DLC... The pack is mostly complete and I've run through everyone's levels to make sure everything is as it should be (it is!). Now I must make a start map!
It should be done in the next few days, as long as nothing comes up. Let the teasing begin : https://twitter.com/tdDaz/status/633636437368406016 If they say a picture is worth a thousand words, then that must be worth a million.
Totally incredible. I always appreciate it. Looks grand.
C'mon Daz, make it faster to deliver all this goodness to all of us! first, thanks for posting the screenshot Daz, that was a well-chosen angle too.
I thought collaborations were allowed because jam1 included a collaboration, I also think collaborations are fun/interesting and should be encouraged. Also one area of the map is a scrap that another mapper sent me years ago when I asked for scraps (unfortunately I don't have my old emails anymore, so someone may recognize a certain area). However, compared to the map as a whole it's not that large (not even shown in the screenshot). I remember from previous jams people saying scraps could be used, but most of the map was built within the jam time and we barely finished on time. I wanted to keep it secret because even though it took most of my time for the past week, neither of us knew if we'd be able to make the deadline (the first, non-extended deadline would have been impossible). Care to name your levels? Having "Untitled" by X appear before a teleporter kinda sucks!
Start map is basically done. Just need to polish it a little. Please stop sending me map updates tomorrow! I am waiting for an updated map from Tronyn/Ericw and Adib and I'm hoping that is it! Also just fyi, I've sanitised all the map/source/readme names to jam6_<mapper name>.xxx for the sake of ease of use and sanity! I had to remove a few capital letters in the file names (naughty naughty) and I had to shorten "ItEndsWithTens" to just tens or spirit would have shouted at me ;) Assuming I get all the scheduled map updates soon, I think I can release tomorrow! Call me whatever you want, just don't call me late for map jams.
I was so proud of myself when I came up with something cute that rhymed that I started using it everywhere, but I've been dubbed "tens" before, so it's all the same to me. You monster. fuck. if i had seen this: http://wildweasel339.deviantart.com/art/Lava-Loops-264628032 and this: http://matchack.deviantart.com/art/Forgotten-ruins-343527909 my map would have been totally different.
anyway, jam6_necros_v2 is a good map name, but if it bothers you, feel free to name it. I honestly do not care if Tronyn and EricW collaborated and used old scraps. The point of jams is to make maps get made, nothing else.
I actually tried making a rock bridge in my jam 6 map, a lot like those lava loops it the first picture necros linked. But time was running out and the rocks and cave type terrain I'd already made had been a big headache, so I gave up on the idea.
quake has trouble with capital letters. it is case sensitive, but only when it reads from
It's up to EricTronyn turret now.
There is still a to-do list: few gameplay glitches, working some looks a little further, optimization... A question about DLC: along with fixes and improvements, may I send a brand new level? Like Necros, I had this epiphany two weeks ago. There's no real rules to DLC. RetroJam3DLC is the first mappack anyone did, and it was just 3 new maps.
RJ3DLC was more of a joke based on a troll post in the RJ3 thread; it's not supposed to be "the way to go" for all jam events.
Quake is also case sensitive if you are on a case sensitive filesystem.
Long names are totally fine I think? No need to truncate unless Quake has limits. Good engines have tab completion. inside pak files, quake can't handle more than 8.3 filenames. Outside pak files longer names are fine.
Good to know about the naming limitations because that other map I work on will probably be a pak.
Are super cool though. And jam5 had one too.
It's not like it is hard to make a quick start map for a jam. And it gives the package a more together feel. So about that lava rising, I didnt knew func_door forced its brushes to be solid...
I hope there's a workaround for this, like func_elevator or func_plat? Also I did as I was told to separate each actions with a trigger_relay, with the key taken to sink the pillar and rise a block and when the pillars action is done, to cllose the gate, rise the lava and spawn the monsters, instead everything happens at once (the key has its set of triggers and the pillar has its own as well) I'm not sure how to work around the solid moving lava issue, I'd really like an answer to that too.
With your relays, I don't know if having each entity target the next one in the sequence will fire that target when the current one is finished or instead when it's started, so you should be able to just tweak the delay on each relay until things happen at the times you want. I don't think there is a way to make water rise/fall in vanilla Quake. If there is it would be super hacky (Preach might know), func_elevator is not a thing, and all the other funcs make stuff solid as well, apart from illusionary, which will not have any properties of liquid, and func_detail, which you can not do stuff with really. At least not without any custom qc stuff.
Sorry to say that liquids cannot move in Quake afaik. It needs engine support which Quake doesn't have. The only real work around is to have the liquid stationary and move the level around it down/upwards. Hacky as hell and not ideal :(
I think there are face limits to single func_ entities but unsure off the top of my head.
You would have to design a very specific area that the player couldn't escape from and also wasn't very complex. Meh. I have everyone's map updates and the pack is shipped out for testing. As long as no one reports their pc's exploding from running the jam then I can release it later on today (H Y P E !)
Damn! That would be my big surprise for a final fight, for DLC.
If it's too complex, you can split the room into several func_doors. I've sort of (to the extent it's possible, given that the map is somewhat broken at this stage) playtested your map while trying to find solutions to the problems you posted earlier. I jotted down some notes but haven't posted them as I wasn't sure (a) if my opinion is worth anything and (b) whether this thread is the right place for this. But then I thought, what the hell, I might as well give you what feedback I have. Feel free to ignore all of it and please get other people's opinion too, as I might not know what I'm talking about.
THE GOOD: I think the map has some cool ideas. The "city in ruins" setting is nice, and the "3d platforming" gameplay is entertaining (where you have to work out your way forwards and hop from broken piece of architecture to rock to broken bit, etc.). THE BAD: It's waaaaay too tough (on skill 1), for at least three reasons: 1) The hop-from-bit-to-bit gameplay is nice, as I said, but the lighting is often too dark too see all the nooks and crannies, and then it just becomes frustrating. My advice would be to work on the lighting to make things easier to see, even if it means using minlight (I realise this is usually a terrible idea, but it's better than pitch blackness). 2) The enemy placement/weapon+ammo placement and enemy/ammo/weapon balance is far too unforgiving: 2.1) You start by assaulting the player with a crowd of grunts (i.e. hitscan enemies) that drain your health in no time. I would get rid of those if I were you. Perhaps you could replace them with dogs, and even then, you don't need so many right at the start. 2.2) The Vore that you teleport in (by the stairs that gave you trouble before) is unfair: there is no cover (so it's just a matter of time before the voreballs make contact), PLUS the player has to hop over tiny platforms in lava, PLUS there are enforcers all around. I'm betting few players can survive this. 2.3) You wait far too long to give the player weapons and/or hide them out of sight, which makes them easy to miss. That means many players will be stuck with the shotgun for a large part of the map. Plus there are too few shells and nails for the number of enemies. My advice would be to place the weapons directly in the player's path and make sure the player gets the super shotgun almost immediately (as opposed to halfway through the map on a hidden ledge). And either up the ammo or reduce the number of enemies, or possibly both. 2.4) In general, the fact that you have this platform-jumping gameplay (over basically insta-kill lava) means that when you bombard the player from all sides at the same time, the map just becomes a difficult grind. I'd say go easy on the monsters. You currently have more than 100, which is way too much for this kind of map. THE UGLY: The map is unplayably slow, buggy and leaking. I suspect you're trying to do far too much in one project, and I would suggest simplifying things -- gameplay, brushwork and size: Gameplay: So having rising lava is tricky to do in Quake. I actually think your map will be much better without it. It is currently so tough that few if any players will be able to complete it, so you really don't need even more tricks and hazzards. I honestly think the platform-jumping gameplay makes the map interesting enough, and that you don't need half the complex trigger setups you are trying to create. Brushwork: I think the map looks best where the visuals are simpler, e.g. the escalators and the subway line with the train. These parts are recognisable as parts of a city. Later on, where you get to those ruined skyscrapers built out of a million small elongated brushes and you have all those rockfaces and other things all around, the visuals just get so busy and overwhelming that it stops being convincing and just becomes, well, messy. Size: I think this could be a far more enjoyable map if you cut a lot of it, and made it 25% (or even less) of its current size. Get rid of the messy brushwork and the huge, grand vistas. I don't think they work well visually (although I can see what you were going for) and I strongly suspect it's going to make it easier to get rid of the buggyness, seal the leaks, etc. My first idea was to create a map then copy the geometry and add the lava so that you went one direction through the map and reach the end. The last room would be a platform that would be lowered into lava and down to the copied geometry. Then they would have to navigate through the level geometry in reverse filled with lava creating all new paths using water to create platforms.
That took too much planning for the time that was given. :-( Can be done but not in the standard progs.
I used it in FMB-BDG2 to flood an area to allow the player to escape from the sewers/drains. I know I didn't code it, I think it is func_water from Extras. WarrenM : Your map wants a "devpun_*" skybox but you didn't supply a skybox in your zip. Can you send it?
ShoTro : Your changelevel trigger links to "Start" with a capital S. Can you change it to all lower case, do an -onlyents compile and re-send the bsp. Thanks! Also as a note, I am officially recommending Quakespasm for this particular map jam pack. A few of the levels will not load or will crash other engines (jam6_necros will crash Fitz, "mod_loadleafs exceeded" and jam6_ericwtronyn is 2PSB format). Quakespasm is the only engine currently that has played all the levels without any issues. Of course you can see if your preferred engine will work but for a hastle free experience, Quakespasm! The pack can be released when I get the files requested above :)))) Crap, sorry
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161473/Misc/devpun.zip 6L J | M < 9 0 6L |j ! D 0d t 9 D $ X x0 >) 4H D3 * <P `9 + ? C ? dD ? E ? @E ? @E ? (E ? YE ? C ? PE ? xE ? D ? ? 8E ? `E ? 7E ? _E ? ? B ? @6E s?n>p<E a.8s?u>C<E U8s?ʩ>
it's not very editable ;D Try HxD, or a similar hex editor. Open the file, search for the string "changelevel", you should be able to find and fix the issue easily enough.
bspinfo -copyents mapname
edit mapname.ent in notepad or something qbsp -onlyents mapname.ent <-- NOTE THE EXTENSION!!! Messing around with the entity lump in the bsp file leads to corruption if you change the length of the text, the bspinfo/onlyents method avoids that.
Yeah or edit the
If you scroll down far enough you will find the entities section (I think this is used by "light") which is plain text from the
Editing the map file and doing -onlyents can be risky because there can be problems linking the correct bmodel to the correct entity, and I've experienced switchable lights being broken as well.
If you only edit the changelevel trigger, -onlyents is fine. It's only problematic if the order of brush entities changes. If the map has switchable lights, you need to run light -onlyents as well.
I realise there are ways for me to edit ShoTro's map but if I somehow fuck things up and his map is broken in the pack i'd feel awful. So I'd rather wait for the man himself to issue a quick fix :)
Thanks Warren, that skybox kicks arse! SOON HYPE SOON for switchable lights, aguirre's light.exe and the jury rigged util has a -onlyents switch to relink switchable lights. unfortunately, ericw's light does not have this. (nor the original tyrlight)
i will add that to the todo list, I forgot that qbsp -onlyents would break switchable lights (but it makes sense).
I ran a last minute "qbsp -onlyents" last night of Tronyn's/my map, luckily there don't seem to be any switchable lights, so it should be OK. I compiled to 2psb because Tronyn's other releases used it, and also some more engines can run it; I'm not sure if he uses RMQEngine. AFAICS, it doesn't make much difference which BSP2 variant is used?
We're planning to release a cleaned up version at some point so could switch to BSP2 then I guess. ericw/necros/czg, what do you mean by "switchable lights" - you don't mean, say, a light that's off by default that gets switched on by a monster dying? heh heh -_-
lights with a "targetname" switch on/off when triggered. I think there's a spawnflag to make them start "off"
Huh, I ran -onlyents recompile on my map like 5+ times, but it still seems to work just fine.. (since the light that gets switched on is what I was tweaking each time) using tyrutils-ericw
Anything reasonable supports BSP2, RMQEngine should be all that only supports 2PSB and no one should care (nothing against RMQ there). QuakeForge explicitly does not support 2PSB but BSP2. Afaik there is only one minor difference format wise. It just makes no sense to use that format. :\
Tronyn's other maps only used it because he didn't know better. While this map might be a lot of half baked ideas thrown together this jam has though me where to set my expectations next time.
I set up a coop server running JAM6 at 67.55.27.60:26001 If anyone's interested in playing with others. I'll leave it online for a few days. If it's offline assume the wifey shut off the PC.
That's cool!
Please note, my map DOES NOT WORK in coop, I even placed the coop spawn in a little box informing the player of that. Sorry! some of the things done in my map are broken if you play it coop, but accepted that since few people actually play coop :( (Also, we should keep future discussion to the release thread!) Your feedback will help me a lot. I have ideas on optimizing the level without deleting the actual paths.
As for the enemies your criticism still stands, but that's also because I haven't finished doing difficulty works on them. I reserved that for when the level worked 100% first. I procrastinated like a champ and restarted about 3 times. I was having a world of pain with rock faces using the vertex and clipping tool in jackhammer. But I think I came up with a neat solution. So far I've had no strange errors, disappearing brushes etc.
I made the area I wanted to be cliff face out of a solid and split it into even sized cubes with the clip tool. I then made a corner convex, a corner concave and a slope shape. These are all the same size as the aforementioned cubes. Now building is just like minecraft... Sort of. If I want to change the angle of part of the cliff I can stretch it to double its length with no errors. If I want a part of the cliff to jut out I can rotate the blocks 180 degrees. It's working out pretty well. I think I will rework my map to be more than just a lame tech demo, but I will probably do it as a separate thing because I'd want to use some custom qc... Probably want to get some moving machinery stuffs, ohhh maybe a tram ride or something. That'd be cool. I remember way back we talked about bezier curves, would be interesting to try to get that going in qc.
FYI I loved the atmosphere of your map. The sparseness of monsters felt right. Lighting and textures are gorgeous. I'd rather play more maps like it than having it changed.
interesting... i thought the main complaint was the lack of fighting. i can certainly preserve the slower paced gameplay, although i am sorely tempted to do a chthon horde fight somehow. ;)
Chthons all around the level in the lava!
The thing I found most irritating though was the sparklies everywhere, esp dark areas, since the level is unvised. Did you have issues with vis, or was it just because time? Necros: There's some bezier spline code in the honey progs if you look through it. It's not perfect, but it could maybe be a starting point.
ptoing: the level doesn't vis because the utility crashes :P i never bothered reporting it to eric at the time because itwouldn't have helped at all since the entire map is basically one giant room and he was working on that tronyn/eric collab at the time.
i've been meaning to send a bug report to him afterwards but kept forgetting... what might help is changing the walls that contain the map to use a black texture so that sparklies will be less of a problem. now, from what i remember, sparklies are caused by t-junctions not being created, and there were some problems with that during compilation. czg: cheers, dude! Ah, that makes sense. It still is a pretty damn impressive map either way. And an excellent proof of concept for Warren's OBJ2MAP tool.
That's in no way a slight against all the very talented people who make these maps. I just find quake to be inherently boring on the gameplay front. The drip-feed of zigg-zagging bullet sponges isn't my thing.
I play these to see new ideas and executions, occasional gameplay novelty and to admire the technical mastery. IMO, Necros, I don't think your map needs to be changed. Especially not on the gameplay front, that would add little to no value to me. That's just me and I believe I'm in the minority on this topic. Make more lame tech demos, they rock. "That's in no way a slight against all the very talented people who make these maps. I just find quake to be inherently boring on the gameplay front. The drip-feed of zigg-zagging bullet sponges isn't my thing. "
I definitely feel that. I love the game and the atmosphere but the combat is just too old to really enjoy anymore. For me, at least. That's why most of my maps suffer from a lack of monsters or really good fighting spaces I'm the same way. I don't even put monsters in on "easy" anymore (unless required for progression).
I also tend to think that boss fights and/or big arena fights are old and tired relics from the 90s. Generally once I get to what is obviously the "big finale", I give it one or two tries then call it a day. That's why most of my maps suffer from a lack of monsters or really good fighting spaces
I made a map once, it was pretty spaces with obligatory monsters dropped in. Encounter design is very interesting to me, Quake simply doesn't offer much in that regard. Doom, on the other hand, has a compelling beastiary on it's own, but when coupled with great maps... hnnnngggg I play Quake purely for the gameplay, if a map has nice visuals/atmosphere then it's a bonus. What makes the game so fun for me is the physics; doing all sorts of jumps and tricks to gain speed and traverse the maps. I never really cared much for the game before I discovered how to abuse the physics, but at the same time, if it had just another generic sci-fi setting (like Quake 2, for instance), I probably wouldn't like the game as much as I do now. So I guess you could say I enjoy it for the combination of gameplay and style. Always play on skill 3, but arena fights and hordes aren't really my cup of tea - much prefer a well designed layout with thought put into monster placement and which allows for movement/dodging.
Haven't played this jam yet so can't comment on any of the maps. what do you think is missing from quake that makes you not want to design encounters for it?
"I definitely feel that. I love the game and the atmosphere but the combat is just too old to really enjoy anymore. For me, at least."
It didn't suck 20 years or maybe 10 years ago. It just got old and moldy.
But I still like the melee enemies: a circle with two-three fiends or a horde of knights. The quake beastiary feels a little homogeneous. The somewhat shallow unit differentiation doesn't demand much from the player. In practice, you only have to "play one way" against pretty much every possible scenario. You master one enemy, you've mastered them all.
Even if there where more specific unit roles, it would be beneficial to lower enemy hp across the board so that you can have more enemies present simultaneously to make use of the new possible unit combinations. IMO, this creates faster gameplay with more depth. Which, to me, is more engaging. An analogy: the Quake beastiary is comprised of a narrow set of colors, and when mixed, only produce a narrow set of shades. Not very interesting to look at nor very interesting to paint. Matthias Worch had a great rant about this one time on Facebook. Basically, the beastiary in Doom is FAR more varied and interesting than in Quake. Different monster configurations require you to switch up tactics and make decisions quickly to survive.
Quake, while an awesome game, doesn't really do that. There's a single flying enemy, for example. And it's basically the same as the land based ones except that it's, you know, in the air. The fish are kind of pointless, and the only really interesting enemy is the vore as it requires you to manage the projectiles while you deal with other creatures in the room. I dunno. It sounds like I don't like Quake. Not true! I love it to death. But a fun game to play? These days? Not so much There is one monster in the bestiary you're all forgetting, and that's the most important one, the environment. The regular monsters' interaction spatially is where the level designer makes them shine. Hope this helps!
sure by today's standards the game looks like a turd, but that was never really what the game had going for it. Yes the game at the time was a technical achievement, but the atmosphere and mod-ability of the game is what kept people interested.
This community owes itself to how well the game can be modded, and to the modding communities creativity. Think about it this way, this game presents a simple basis to build upon, and is restrictive so that achievements in programming or design can be fully appreciated by any who know the original game. Maybe because this game is a dinosaur (turd) that we eek out every piece of gameplay interesting mechanic, design from it and feel a huge sense of accomplishment in doing so. I sort of feel in that regard like this community has a lot in common with things like the 64k demo-scene community, or the vanilla minecraft mapping community. Very simple concepts or tools doing amazing things. On the topic of the mobs being vastly different than doom mobs, sure. The doom areas had large open expanses. How many of those were in vanilla quake? Not too many. Anyway, I should stop ranting and keep mapping lol. Look at it this way
I disagree, the strength of Quake's enemies is how they are placed in conjunction with the environment of the map, and the vertical element can often be a major factor in this regard. Sure, if you'd replace Doom's enemies with the ones from Quake then it wouldn't really work, but then again the gameplay/enemy placement in many Doom maps seem to boil down to "make a giant room and stick one million enemies in it and call it a day". Not exactly what I'd call interesting, either.
Doom didn't start with the horde combat during any of the "proper" games.
"but then again the gameplay/enemy placement in many Doom maps seem to boil down to "make a giant room and stick one million enemies in it and call it a day". Not exactly what I'd call interesting, either. "
Eh, now we're getting off the rails a little. We'll agree to disagree. Go play some recent Vanilla Doom 2 wads, like Back to Saturn X. There are some slaughtermaps in there, but also a lot of none horde encounters.
Also one thing to keep in mind, Doom is 90% an arena shooter like Robotron and the like, just with more complex levels and in 1st person. But if you play it on the map with double IDDT cheat and only with monsters that are non-hitscan, it is actually quite playable. One could design levels to work very well with this. ..but then again the gameplay/enemy placement in many Doom maps seem to boil down to "make a giant room and stick one million enemies in it and call it a day". Not exactly what I'd call interesting, either.
I don't believe that's very accurate. However, it may be rooted in truth in that Doom does more with less (in comparison to Quake); make a box map in both Doom and Quake and I bet Doom will be more engaging. Warren mention Mathias Worch's talks on the subject, here's some stuff: Matt's Level Design Retrospective - Doom, Quake and More This is a pdf of a GDC talk that references a lot of Doom mechanics, including Orthogonal Unit Differentiation. It's brief, but tasty. Decisions That Matter A little write-up on Doom by JP LeBreton, a short but good read. Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom I'm not bashing Quake, I love Quake. But it's good to look at things critically sometimes; it helps you makes better levels, better games. Of course, a lot of this is a matter of taste as well. LONG LIVE DOOM AND QUAKE! this thread is showing the perfect example of why we closed the previous Jam threads once the jam was over.
--- If people want a DLC pack, anyone who wants to do it needs to organize it. I'd say wait another week beforehand to make sure everyone is absolutely sure of what they want to make/finish and then get a feel for how many others want to submit map updates/post deadline complete maps/new maps and how long it will take. I won't be doing an update or new map, but I know several people want to. I'd rather see an all new map jam. As long as the theme isn't too weird, any maps that didn't make it for map jam 6 could just be modified to fit.
I do have a modified version of my map jam 6 contribution in the works, but if it ever sees the light of day it'll probably be as part of a larger map. Mainly because I'm not a fan of releasing multiple versions of a level, it gets confusing. That happened to me before with polygon base. Agree 100%. DLC is a fun concept but I can see it quickly becoming an excuse to not get maps in on time instead.
What if one could only submit a fix only if he/she submits a new level as well? DLC would be for new levels only, fixing former maps would be a bonus for participating.
Quake's single player gameplay had a bit of a frosty reception even back in 1996. A lot of you young 'uns may not remember that.
Funny how we're just starting to catch up :} I don't hate this game, I actually love it, it's just that I finally realised the sad truth that the gameplay was shit all along :)
get the fuck out I like it. It is so direct and visceral, as is the player control. Yes the monsters and weapons are simple, but mappers can still put them in stimulating combos.
Think about: A number of monsters x B number of weapons x C number of power-ups x D number of enviromental hazards And there is a lot you can still do with the "basic" gameplay. Also, Quad runs \m/ "but mappers can still put them in stimulating combos."
Sort of. I mean, after 20 years, you sort of run out of unique ledges to put ogres on... If only if it wasn't completely false, as proven by 99% of Q1SP releases from the past several years, from sock to RRP and map jams.
You should prepare some Jam for guys who are scripting in QC and give them a task to upgrade or create some new enemies ;)
"If only if it wasn't completely false, as proven by 99% of Q1SP releases from the past several years, from sock to RRP and map jams."
Don't get all defensive about it. I like Quake. I keep stating that fact. But the fact is, the gameplay is inferior to Doom in objective ways. Honestly, this seems like a matter of taste? Many people don't agree that ogres not being z-aware is a crucial gameplay element. Why should it be possible to rate gameplay objectively? Doom does not even have three dimensions or mouse aim.
Saying the gameplay in Quake is objectively inferior is a fallacy considering it's entirely subjective whether one would think so or not. For instance, I enjoy Quake because of the freedom of movement it allows, which is nowhere near as prominent in Doom - does this mean the gameplay in Doom is objectively worse than Quake? No, because even though I love Quake for its physics and frantic movement, other people might enjoy either game for a variety of other reasons.
If you can't make it work, you're not trying hard enough.
An exercise I like to do to get the LD juieces flowing is taking one enemy type and seeing how many blockout areas I can build around it, just showing off its gameplay implications. I try to go to the extremes; say, 20 areas or more. Once I've got that done for a handful of enemies I'll start doing the same but with two enemy types, of limited numbers. So; Build 20 areas with 2 Grunts. Build 20 areas with 1 Ogre. Build 10 areas with 1 Grunt and 1 Ogre. Build 10 areas with 3 Grunts and 1 Ogre. Build 10 areas with 1 Grunt and 2 Ogres. This would be pointless without the one golden rule: Each Area Must Challenge the Player in a Different Way These types of studies are done in many fields, but in Q1 custom levels it seems they're only really done for visuals. Occasionally someone will sneak out a test map which plays with this type of stuff, but its rare. The big assumption seems to be that everything is known about the monsters and there is nothing more to learn. Try applying the same yardstick to, say, chess, and see how far you get. ----- If you want to get specific about why Doom beats Quake on monster variety then for me its a simple answer: more projectiles. The Quake Quake then stabs Doom in the balls however because it has true 3d space - specifically the Scrag and Ogre make great use of this, as long as cleverly placed. ----- Also, Angry Birds 2 is shit. Any block that is knocked over breaks upon touching another, removing the domino effect that made the very first one compelling. This jam pack is awesome !
Ionous map is my favorite (feel so freakingly out of this world !), followed by Scampie's. Ionous, did you said that you will update your map ? "The big assumption seems to be that everything is known about the monsters and there is nothing more to learn. Try applying the same yardstick to, say, chess, and see how far you get."
Thanks, I think this caps it off for me. Sorry for the de-rail! I really wanted my map to be in a package
Seems like I have to take a whole month to make a map :c Time to dig it deep I sensed my fear of heights by standing on ionous' map and looking up. Hence the word "vertigo" in my review.
RetroJam3 had only 2 maps, the "dlc" had 3, but it was released very soon after.
It seems there are at least two mappers that missed the Jam6 deadline. That alone is enough for a "dlc" or a separate map jam. Nothing prevents you from getting together and doing either. You will need to actually finish those maps though :) I too have a map that I didn't finish in time. I'll probably need another month now because I stopped work after the first release and now I'll have less spare time. Here's a couple of screenshots in which neither fire or brimstone are greatly in evidence:
http://i.imgur.com/liU6nAB.jpg http://i.imgur.com/xq5HQVY.jpg At the moment I'm thinking that I will release it on its own, unless someone sets up a DLC deadline that is realistic. It's not like the Quake release schedule is so crowded that no-one will notice if you make a post to announce your lone new map (I hope). I agree with Daya that it would be good to release as part of a package, but I agree with WarrenM more that if every jam project is going to have DLC now the original deadlines will be meaningless. Was dlc an "official" thing? Thoughts doing maps should just get together and surprise us!
I will ve trying to expand on my map, so basically make it longer and add more terrain and buildings to explore, biting will be doing it as a mod as I hate vanilla quake cause there's bi crazy scripted machinery!! it is! My little lame atrium that I didn't know what to do with! Glad it found a home nestled into this giant masterpiece! Thanks Tronyn!
I remember Tronyn mentioning that there were someone's scraps in it, but he forgot whose. So you started the cave interior?
the part I made is only sort of recognizable. I noticed because of some light detailings and doorway frames, and noticed a couple other details - some octogonal columns and the pathways supported by chains. Tronyn fleshed them out and integrated them into the bigger picture.
I'm interested though as to how the scraps made their way in there... Here you go everyone https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33279452/pcgamer.jpg
They linked to some ModDB page that has the pack and several kinda poorly framed screenshots...Think the magazine just took the best shot from the group and used it! Too bad it wasn't the shot Daz made that showed all the maps together.
I'm slightly irked that they didn't link to our board but instead linked to some random blokes moddb page. I think func_ needs to set up a page there or something now.
Is that the first time a mainstream gaming mag has acknowledged Quake's mapping scene since, I dunno, Zerstorer?
I wasn't expecting this jam to be featured on PC gamer. Great work everyone!
@adib: Yep, the shot is from ionous' map. wait, so people create modDB pages for mods that they themselves did not create/participate in? This is normal?
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