Total conversion, partial conversion, mod, map?
gb recently published a very childish rant about why RemakeQuake/RMQ was not covered at Quaddicted. He went on a huge hyperbole, steering well clear of the actual issue at hand but instead insulting me deeply. He even went so far as to plaster an image with “Stop” signs. He and I are german, german government planned to put such signs infront of websites related to child abuse. I gave him some time to cool down and reconsider his accusations but the post is still there.
So, now hear me, the censor, the abuser of monopoly.
Too long; won’t read: Quaddicted focuses on Quake singleplayer releases that do not drastically change the game. RemakeQuake drastically changes the game and does not feel like the original Quake. Thus RemakeQuake has no place at Quaddicted.
Read on if you are interested in the background:
Since the dawn of user generated content for Quake there has been trouble categorising it. Let’s try it ourselves for “maps” and “mods/conversions”.
- A plain .bsp file is a Quake map.
- Replacing content with user creations = mod. For example using different sounds, graphics or models.
- A progs.dat file is a modification of the original game code. It might even be written from scratch but we will ignore that.
It could be modifications.
For example a weapon’s damage was changed, a monster’s behaviour was modified or things like that. Those are rare, I actually cannot think of any mods that are purely modifications in this sense.
It could be additions.
For example a monster or weapon was added, additional functionality in terms of the environment, special effects and the like.
The scope of change is different for each release. Some try to introduce small changes to the game world, enhancing the original idea with tailored content. Others use the engine, content and code at hand to create completely new worlds or gameplay mechanics. Quake has been turned into a racing game, into a real-time strategy game, into side scrollers.
So far this should be without controversy but a simple collection of facts. Controversy arises once we try to divide mods into two groups: partial and total conversions.
idgames2 says
-= partial_conversions =-
Quake add ons that change at least two of the following
aspects: levels, graphics, sounds, Quake C, but do not
(yet) qualify for a ‘total conversion’.
Examples from idgames2/partial_conversions that are listed at Quaddicted: Beyond Belief, Abyss of Pandemonium, Zerstörer. But there are also things like starwars, airquake, James Bond 007, that are adding drastic changes to Quake and do not fit into the Quake universe.
-= total_conversions =-
Attempts to convert the look, feel and gameplay of Quake
by converting _all_ aspects of Quake (graphics, sound, levels
and Quake C).
Among many others this directory includes burnnman, 007 again, atf, fantasy quake, quakerally.
By the idgames2 definition you can have partial conversions that do not feel like the original Quake and you can have total conversions that absolutely do so. It is a technical differentiation. You could make it more strict You could call everything that changes anything a partial conversion and releases that do not include anything from Quake a total conversions. That would not be even less useful. Also, this particular issue (PC vs TC) does not really matter here. Our issue is distinguishing what still feels like Quake (in terms of singleplayer maps) and what does not, because that is what this site is about. What is appropiate and what is too much change?
Most mods from the #qc/i3d crowd change the gameplay a lot or are code-only releases (no new maps) so those do not qualify. func focuses on Q1SP, so usually things posted there, get posted here. There might be some quite obscure maps, but you still battle the same enemies with the same armoury and mechanics. There might be some borderline mods but I tried to focus on ones that still feel like Quake to me. It obviously is a subjective feeling, it is impossible to do this on a technical basis. Maybe it is just new gameplay mechanics, small changes (think of ladders, rotating elements), new enemies, that add to the existing rules. Maybe it is some tiny change that changes the whole game.
Nehahra does the former. It builts upon the Quake base and (apart from the idiotic monster strafing) introduces new lovecraftian additions. The main gameplay mechanics are undamaged and it generally feels like the original game.
Hellsmash (recent example #1) fundamentally changes the game. All weapons and enemies are new. Some core gameplay is alive but the rest is a whole different game.
RMQ (recent example #2) fundamentally changes the game. It is easier to list what has not been changed. Actually the only thing I can think of from the top of my head are walking speed and jumping height, anything else? I am serious about this, this is not supposed to be some lazy attack.
So Nehahra is here, but Hellsmash and RMQ are not.
Since currently I can not be more lenient about this, should I instead be more strict? Should I censor remove releases that slipped in earlier or were added because I personally felt they were appropiate or were I was asked nicely (atf, nsoe, e1m1red, etc)?
This ultimately leads to gb’s main accusations, me, Spirit, controlling what gets added to Quaddicted, abusing its alleged monopoly and censoring things I do not like. I hope I could make it clear how I tried to focus this site on a special kind of Quake releases.
Quaddicted once was meant to be fully user-driven but no-one really cared. Some awkward content management systems were used and user contribution was sparse. In the end I tried programming things myself, controlling content with a strong hand and whine so people like negke or erc would do a lot of excrutiating work for it. And that put us where we are now. Having one’s release posted and hosted at Quaddicted is a privilege, not a right.
It originally started as “Quakeblog” on which I tried to collect news about everything Quake. Why? Because there was no central hub. Then it became about hosting map zip files. Why? Because there was no central archive. We now have a wonderful collection that allows people to easily download Quake singleplayer map files without any restrictions or signup. I wish the multiplayer communities had something like this. And even more so, the modding community.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I recently pondered opening Quaddicted to all kinds of mods (no, no user would be able to upload) but that task seems impossible to me. How we could categorise mods, handle special requirements, filename issues and different compression methods?
Easily install and launch Quake maps with the cross-platform
08.02.2011 14:29
Hmmm – I can see your point and perspective even though I don’t agree with it myself (and that doesn’t mean that I think you’re not entitled to it). I can also accept that Quaddicted is not a democracy – it’s a website with an owner who gets to call the shots and that’s cool and the way things should be.
I’d just like to say though that divisiveness in a community is not a healthy thing, especially one like Quake’s. Also that RMQ releases to date have been mainly intended to showcase certain styles and themes, and that as a result they perhaps need to err on the side of going too far in the direction of those styles and themes. The full product certainly does feel like Quake, and all the dark twisted labyrinths and sense of unease that you get is present and correct.
Understandable though given the circumstances that you haven’t seen this yet; but you will. Also understandable that GB is a mite peed off as I know he’s put a lot of work into his stuff and would like to see it getting a platform like Quaddicted behind it.
So I’ll finish up by asking that you hold fire on a final decision until you see what’s coming next.
08.02.2011 14:57
Well, I see your point Spirit. It is your site and you can feature on it whatever you want. I don’t doubt that.
I have to accept your policies at quaddicted.com, but I felt like you were pretty high and mighty in that IRC conversation we had; the first and main reason you gave was that RMQ was too far from Quake for your taste. When I tried to argue how different or not RMQ is from Nehahra, technically, you said I wasted your time. Well, that left me kinda pissed. Perhaps understandably so.
I also thought that my blog post was as unrantish as possible. If you’ll show me exactly where I insulted you, I’ll apologize for that; that was not the intention.
I respect any real technical reasons to not include certain mods at quaddicted; however the first point you made was about taste. This is what I took issue with, not any technicalities.
gb
09.02.2011 02:01
Well, it’s disappointing. I could argue technicalities and so on but there’s not a lot of point – you can host what you like on your site.
It just seems divisive or arbitrary – but that’s from where I’m stood, and if the crux of the matter is personal taste.
The divisions between partial and total conversions are fuzzy, and I don’t know (or particularly care) where RMQ stands on that front although I’d assume partial as opposed to total – but only because I know for a fact what we’ve altered. From a player perspective it is almost certainly very different.
If a player spoke up about having the same problems with the project I’d try and find out what their perceived faults with it were and (within reason) try and fix them. We can’t please everybody, and we do have to stick to our vision. If the issues couldn’t be resolved without a major change of focus then I’d shrug my shoulders and continue making the mod as I saw fit.
Difference is here that you’re not just a player, but the runner of the best repository for Quake stuff with its own front end for playing content.
I suppose thats the basis of what’s disheartening for us.
Nehahra comparisons aside, RMQ is (even if it still counts in my book as ‘partially’) heavily modified, so I can see the logic of the argument for not including it. It’s also posited on things we (as devs) don’t have to consider as, say, site maintainers and archivists.
09.02.2011 03:11
It should be based on quality. So Hellsmash and RMQ should be included, while all the maps with a crap rating should be axed.
09.02.2011 05:04
I was just kind of considering this when negke was saying that his recent sp conversions of dm maps didn’t need to be reviewed, whereas when I turned Dry Sorrow into an sp map, that’s a proper Q1SP. I also had to think about since the recent proper Q1SP Quake City, didn’t seem worth reviewing (I don’t want to discourage any mappers, but it’s not at a recommend-worthy level). For reviews, I guess I am just going to say I’ll review quality “proper Q1SPs” and by “proper Q1SPs” I will mean, “however much modification there is, these modifications serve the single player quake levels included in the package, not the other way around.” Thus, airquake and fantasy quake are out, since they’re mods that have their own levels, but nsoe (heh) and RMQ are in, since the modding there serves the goal of making a Q1SP.
09.02.2011 11:54
The goal of the project is to improve on the original game. Almost by defect this means re-balancing a lot of the stuff. The weapons are the most obvious case.
I think we’ve all thought in id1 at some time or another “I wish the axe wasn’t so shit”. You start with something like that and you end up either all doing it all or giving up on the thing as a pipe dream.
It will alienate some players when we change things that to them aren’t required though. We just have to trust in our capabilities that the final thing will be worth playing.
09.02.2011 16:14
I thought the standard for Quake single player was the “Does it have a Shambler in it?” litmus test.
If it has a Shambler in the map, it is Quake single player. If doesn’t have any Shamblers, then it is a mod.
I personally don’t feel that Zerstorer, Nehahra, OUM feel like “proper” Quake. Somehow, Quoth does feel like proper Quake. Hellsmash doesn’t feel like proper Quake. Quake Remake doesn’t feel like proper Quake 1, but feels like the missing sequel in between Quake 1 and Quake 2 — so it feels like a Quake 1 series game [despite the fact they never made a sequel to Quake 1 yet).
Then there is the “Did Tronyn Review it?” litmus test. Using that test, Remake Quake is proper Quake.
And the often forgotten “If it isn’t Quake then why do I have to use a FitzQuake to play it?” question.
And then there is the “If it doesn’t work right in DarkPlaces then it must be a real Q1SP” test.
Joking apart, I can imagine it being difficult to know where to draw the line. Hellsmash was a nice and polished release but not quite Quakey.
Perhaps this is the true “authentic test”:
Is there modification to pre-existing monsters (sound, behavior, etc.) or weapons that deviate from original Quake?
I don’t have a side in this, but it is an interesting question. I personally don’t believe Remake Quake is significantly impaired by not being listed at Quaddicted since the audience is virtually the same as Func_Msgboard. It also is an in-progress mod that will continue to get talked about and seen a lot as it goes forward.
09.02.2011 16:32
I think its dumb to say that Hellsmash and RMQ dont belong in an archive of Quake mods/maps. I think that Spirit is being an anally retentive power-hungry asshole on this one. He’s basically saying all of this to piss people off and make himself feel important. What a cockmaster.
I’m just saying this because it’s likely what everyone else is thinking, but dont want to say it because the guy who owns the website which everyone looks on for Quake 1 maps has every right and power to remove stuff from his website in retalliation. Well I dont care. Fuck him. I’d rather be honest that a suck-arse.
I hope he appreciates a little honesty.
10.02.2011 01:38
OK, Im sorry about that last post. I take back the name-calling and gratuitous mud-slinging.
10.02.2011 01:39
..interesting debate
I still have to try RMQ though
I feel involved cause me myself are creating a Q1 conversion(it’s more a sp pack) that stands on the edge: plays like quake 100% but with a totally different theme/setting(pirates from hell!)
10.02.2011 02:59
There is another way to draw a line to prevent the inclusion of mods in Quaddicted.
“Is it nice?” “Is it crap?” “Is it polished?” “Has it been peer reviewed?” “What do others on the same page — other mappers or other engine modders or other modelers think of the work?” “Is it buggy?” “Has it been ‘tuned’?” “Is it geared towards a single player experience?”
I’m just expressing thoughts here, but one thing that true mods have in common is often they are prematurely abandoned and incomplete — lacking total quality.
Is there an effort to produce a quality and consistent work?
Is there an effort to debug the work?
10.02.2011 17:00
We’re committed :)
10.02.2011 20:45
i don’t want to get too heavily into any debate here but…
in rmq you shoot shells, nails, grenades, rockets and cells at grunts, ogres, fiends, knights etc… you pick up keys which let you in doors and press buttons which lower lifts… it’s bloody quake! it’s even based on the old levels! not all the changes i’ve agreed with but i definitely think it more ‘quakey’ than nehahra with its super-strafing monsters
but i’m not angry or pissed off, just really disappointed. i’m approaching my e2 maps the same way as i’d approach any q1sp, and you can be reassured they will be quake to the core (with a few extra mods obviously). having one of my favourite quake sites boycott them is a bit saddening :(
hopefully your mind will change in a few years time when all is complete. there is loads of time for stuff to change prior to then
10.02.2011 23:27
I judge em by how Lovecraftian they are ;)
And I’m surprised nobodies done a mod that adds Yithians, Shoggoths, Mi-Go, Deep Ones and a boss in the form of Nyarlathotep! it’s screaming to be done. How many smooches do I have to give dammit. -cries-
11.02.2011 01:05
Tarbabies are like Shoggoths except more interesting to fight, Deep Ones may or may not appear in Quoth3 (if it’s even being made, or planned), and Nyarlathotep is supposedly too high in the hierarchy to deal with the player personally. ;)
11.02.2011 09:46
the tarbabies look more like Formless Spawn to me. Especially if you ever seen this piece of artwork :
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa207/embodiedscrew/formlessspawn.jpg
I guess a shoggoth would be too hard to impliment given their complexity and size though. I think Nyarlathotep would still make a good boss though, you get to face Shub…well inless you count it as one of her dark young instead…
11.02.2011 13:14
We do, except the version in id1 is very tame. It does nothing threatening at all.
This, on the other hand:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/buffy/siliconvalley/bigbad3.html
Should prove a bit more taxing to the player.
11.02.2011 13:24
Also, Quake is based off Lovecraft, but it doesn’t stick to it.
I see it as more heavy metal than the source material – an Ogre with a chainsaw and grenades is pretty far from Lovecraft’s vision and more akin to Doom.
11.02.2011 18:59
It is sad when delivering quality brings about an expectation from others of continual service per their desires. Spirit created Quaddicted, manages Quaddicted, and maintains Quaddicted, ergo he controls what goes on it. If he does not, then the RMQ project is just as beholden to community demands as Quaddicted is. The only reason being put forward for RMQ being placed on Quaddicted is that Spirit’s reasoning is invalid, but the case is made on subjective terms. The alternative is that his taste is inferior, and that his will should be supplanted with that of “the community” which has dire implications for anyone involved.
The only reason this is even a point of contention is because of the quality of Quaddicted. If Spirit did a poor job maintaining Quaddicted, no one would seriously care about RMQ’s absence. Since he makes a strong effort to maintain his own site, appearing on it is desirable. Desire means nothing, this is his site, not any of ours, and no one should lean on others for inclusion.
Spirit is not preventing a single person from launching their own site, repository, or building their own distribution tool. He merely did that himself, and he should be celebrated for doing such. Anyone interested in any project will likely gain that interest from a news or forum post, which can be had most anywhere, in that post there will be a download link, and it is likely that is where the majority of downloads will come from, not a third party tool.
I applaud Spirit for sticking to his will regarding what goes on his site, and anyone who subjugates the fruits of their labor to meet with external demands for what is a personal decision, I pity.
11.02.2011 21:39
there’s no delicate way to say this, and i’m not trying to be an ass here, but the whole rmq team is in a state of denial over how far removed the mod is from stock quake. it’s basically a TC except without replacing all the art assets. :P calling it a partial conversion would be a technicality based only on the fact that original quake assets are in use.
i didn’t know quaddicted had a policy for accepting quake mods, but if that is how it’s done, then i don’t really see the ruling as unfair. the policy isn’t unreasonable or anything, it’s not as if spirit requires all maps to use wizmet1_2 or something.
that said, i’m not entirely certain about the wisdom of excluding anything quake at this time.
obviously though, we haven’t seen the whole rmq mod. it could very well be a case of the demo maps being extremes of certain genres.
each release, even if they are the same mod, should be evaluated separately, so when the final version of rmq is released (if ever… :P) it should not be discarded because demo versions of it were.
from a purely subjective standpoint, i feel it is unfortunate that quake injector users can’t load up the mod with the tool as it is definitely a mod worth playing.
12.02.2011 13:22
“there’s no delicate way to say this, and i’m not trying to be an ass here, but the whole rmq team is in a state of denial over how far removed the mod is from stock quake. it’s basically a TC except without replacing all the art assets. :P calling it a partial conversion would be a technicality based only on the fact that original quake assets are in use”
i signed up for a partial conversion.
it’s in progress. the damage balance is being tweaked all the time, fall damage is on the brink of being rolled back, monstercounts will return, some of the godawful placeholder sounds will be improved and, yes, the demos were merely a way of testing the water with certain features rather than an accurate representation of the entire end product
put simply, it’s quake++. the gameplay and objectives are still the same as in the original game which, imo, makes it a PC rather than a TC.
and whilst i do applaud spirit for sticking to his guns, i’d rather be sure it was purely for technical reasons and subject to change with the mod’s development, as opposed to some personal vendetta with gb, which is the kind of vibe i’m getting if i’m honest…
12.02.2011 13:46
..didn’t know there was sort of personal question between Spirit and Gb :(
Q1 community doesn’t need that
Anyway If I had a repository site similar to Quaddicted, I’d mostly pay attention to what is crap or not.
ie: I’ve played the infamous recent map “QuakeCity” and found it pretty enjoyable but others disagree
12.02.2011 15:46
There is no personal issue, at least none I am aware of.
I personally do not like RMQ but that is absolutely irrelevant about its addition to this site. It seems like I failed to explain it. We could throw different definitions of mod/conversion at eachother until the end of time without accomplishing anything.
My main gripes is that the “gameplay patterns” where modified in it. Different weapons, different monsters. These are fundamental parts of the game to me. I love the “dumb” monsters, their behaviour is predictable like in Mario or Zelda games. And apart from the Nailgun being rather useless I have not felt any possible “improvements” to the weaponry. If these fundamental gameplay elements are changed, all that is left is a different FPS that just uses Quake’s assets and its setting.
Things like the hook could be fantastic additions to Quake’s arcadish gameplay (let’s move the question about Quakiness aside) but in its current form it is a chore to use. I managed to get across that first lava pit once in ~15 tries. Also it feels like a gimmick, it does not work as weapon nor for anything else unless at its predetermined places. I could go into more detail about what I do not like about the project but I won’t. Mainly out of respect to the team and also because I should focus on real life at the moment.
This site must not have “quality” standards, this is primarily an archive!
If I knew how to solve the technical issues, I would host all kinds of mods. But since that is not my focus or my main interest I will focus on things I enjoy instead.
12.02.2011 16:36
[...] the debate over Quaddicted‘s (ie Spirit’s) boycott of the RMQ mod, it was recently said that “the entire RMQ team is in denial about how far [...]
12.02.2011 21:59
Is everyone so sure that there won’t be a mod archive here or elsewhere at some point?
I mean 5 years ago, there was even a decent single player map depot. 2 years ago, PlanetQuake announced the purge of remaining sites and those got archived.
I guess I am saying that it is possible to see issues or problems as far larger than they really are. This is a living, breathing community … I’m sure eventually some mechanism will exist for mods.
Things can see like a far bigger deal than they really are if you step back and view things from perspective.
IMHO.
13.02.2011 01:44
about mod inclusion in Quaddicted.. I suggest you not to do it Spirit or else Quaddicted could loose its originary philosophy/purpose
including all mods is too dispersive/confusing ..
Quaddicted should not open its doors to mods nor dm maps!
13.02.2011 02:51
One compromise would be that the remakeQuake team makes new episodes completable on Stock Quake also, that way, those that really do not enjoy the new features can just enjoy 40 nice maps.
13.02.2011 04:22
nah I wouldn’t bother with that – the amount of work involved to “convert” all the content to normal Quake (for one example the maps would have to be recompiled to not use grapple, etc) would be ridiculous. imagine trying to do the same with nehahra. or even drake. or even hipnotic. heh.
13.02.2011 10:28
as far as i know, the plans are to release the entire source on completion, so if people wanted to work on something like that at their will then there would be little stopping them
13.02.2011 13:29
> obviously though, we haven’t seen the whole rmq mod. it could very well be a case of the demo maps being extremes of certain genres.
This much is true. The purpose of a demo is a showcase, and in order to meet that purpose it’s sometimes necessary for it to over-emphasise certain features, even if doing so is to the detriment of maintaining an authentic overall feel.
I can only repeat what I said above: wait for the next SP demo, which is going to be a more cohesive standalone package and more representative of the overall product. That should settle any questions, one way or the other.
If it’s still felt to be “not Quake” after that, then so be it. But forming a final judgement on what RMQ is or is not at the present moment and based on what has been released so far is WAY premature.
13.02.2011 15:50
First: I didn’t read that IRC log and this thread completely.
I’d say that it’s spirit’s decision what he puts on his site, but I gotta admit that I don’t understand why he does not put RMQ on it.
I read the post at the top but afterwards I still had no idea why tbh. If I thought really hard about it I could most likely come up with the difference between a conversion/total conversion/mod/engine modification/Quake C hacks and thousand other tech terms, but what for.
On the ‘Quake feeling’ thing: please don’t get mad at me for saying this but you Q1 guys (not only spirit, hehe) are really strange when it comes to that. ;)
To me all of this stuff is 100% Q1 – even Hellsmash, what else could it be?! I know many other games and Hellsmash reminds me of nothing but Quake.
I mean Q1 people call your maps funky if you use more than 6 different *vanilla Quake textures* in it – and remade stock maps aren’t Quake enough. oO
13.02.2011 18:12
What about stuff like Kona’s Carved in Flesh? This is in the Quaddicted archive (excellent mod/maps btw) but you could call it a TC in the same way you defined RMQ as a TC – it has different monsters and weapons. And a different theme.
13.02.2011 18:19
You missed where I talked about modifications versus additions.
13.02.2011 23:26
Bottom line: you’re all twats.
However: this must be the most active Quaddicted post ever in terms of responses. So drama isn’t always bad, I guess…
13.02.2011 23:35
Uhh, and to at least add something remotely productive, I think it’s good that Spirit tries to draw a line somewhere (though I wouldn’t mind a SP mods section). But at the same time, excluding RMQ seems fairly arbitrary indeed. It does change a lot of stuff, but it’s not Malice or anything. Despite the grappling hook. The rebalance of the weapons actually makes sense – part of the reason why Doom gameplay > Quake.
I’d say calm down everyone and reevaluate your opinions with the next RMQ demo, or the full release. Regardless of how purist or principle-focused one is, this mod/PC/TC/etc will be an important milestone in the history of (more or less regular) single player Quake, and it would be foolish to reject it prematurely.
14.02.2011 02:08
I’m a bit nonplussed by all this, it seems like there’re sides forming.
14.02.2011 03:06
taking sides isnt a good idea. Truth is a tripple edged sword, their side, your side and the truth. Sorry, I was watching Babylon5 earlier.
14.02.2011 13:38
See the flow of the aether. Know that colliding opinions happen. Know that positive things are invariably the result of venting truly held ideas that are in conflict.
Honest discussion is never wrong among honest people with good intentions.
I will provide an example: I used to get on Spirit’s case a lot years back about losing files/getting hacked and stuff in earlier incarnations of his projects. It was not personal — I was trying to push the concept of reliability and I was rather vocal about it, but at times he may have taken offense at it.
I have book Spirit sent me after “redirecting” a bounty and it is one of my most prized possessions — the only tangible object I have from the otherwise non-tangible form of this community.
Perhaps take into consideration that what cannot be denied is that all commenters in this thread have passionate interests and beliefs about a game that many of us feel is too important to be neglected and forgotten.
I don’t claim to be wise, but from experience I see the great way this community connects the dots and threads the needle.
Hell, 5.5 years ago I started a thread @ Func about “How to make real transparent glass” — and today that is a reality. I couldn’t engine code back then, I hadn’t made even a crappy map when I posted that thread. I was truly “green”.
Be patient, be wise, don’t be quick to interpret and understand that differences and conflicts naturally occur and are intended to occur.
But never dare to think that tomorrow will resemble today.
14.02.2011 20:30
Conflict is the norm, it’s what moves things along.
Don’t think of it as sides, think of it as different interacting factors that sometimes need to be stirred and shifted. They just became more visible.
And sometimes it’s good to ask yourself where you stand and why, and see where others stand and why.
Wouldn’t you rather know where you’re at?
10.03.2011 08:22
“serving the close minded conservative Quake singleplayer map enthusiasts for 6 years and counting”
Funny as fuck, that !
Only just noticed it !
10.03.2011 08:22
“serving the close minded conservative Quake singleplayer map enthusiasts for 6 years and counting”
Funny as fuck, that !
Only just noticed it !